Sprung W irons

adigill
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:57 pm

Sprung W irons

Postby adigill » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:35 pm

Has anybody else had issues with the little tabs that hold the wire on the Bill Bedford sprung W irons breaking off??. I'm getting quite fustrated with the amount of the spring carrier's that are ending up in the bin because of breakage. I would like to stick with springing but may use rocking irons instead. Can the wire be soldered to the etch or is that not recomended or is there a different wire that can be used. If i should use rocking iron's can you offer any recomedations as to which one's you consider the best.

User avatar
David B
Posts: 1110
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby David B » Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:23 pm

I don't know how much you are bending them, but they shouldn't break because you barely need to open them out. Just move the middle one a small amount so that you can thread the wire in from the side, then pinch the lot together with a pair of pliers and centre them.

adigill
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:57 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby adigill » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:14 pm

Hi Davidb, I'm only very slightly bending the middle one out a fraction but when i try to put in the wire if it get's pushed out it seem's to get very weak and the movement back in to trap the wire is enough to break it. Could I havea bad batch of very thin etch'es??

User avatar
Guy Rixon
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby Guy Rixon » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:29 pm

In the etches I've used (used up three so far) I've always had to bend both inner and outer tabs slightly to get the wire in. I haven't broken a tab yet, but the ones I was doing last night seemed weaker than usual.

It is possible to solder the wire in, but doing so will stiffen it. In particular, if you solder to the outside tabs it will get a lot stiffer; I'd solder only to the centre tab if at all. You might need to use thinner wire.

Last night, I tried using phospher-bronze wire at ~0.25mm diameter in place of steel wire, in order to get a software spring. It should have given about twice the deflection for a given load. This approach failed because the PB wire seemed to go past its elastic limit with a very small deflection. Pressing the suspension to its limit left me with a permanently-bent "spring". So for softer springs - or for the same spring rate with the centre of the spring soldered up - I think thinner steel wire is called for.

User avatar
John McAleely
Posts: 1114
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby John McAleely » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:27 pm

I found the little blighters very frustrating - it was my first brass kit. I think at least one was totally awol by the time I was done, and others had solder where the intent is there should be none.

Towards the end of the second kit, I was starting to 'get my eye in', and there seemed to be a knack. I've not done any since, so I imagine I'll need to relearn - the design seems neat enough once it started to go together easily.

I reckon this is the sort of thing it would be good to demonstrate at an area group meeting - no soldering (should be) required, and I reckon everyone will have different techniques.

billbedford
Posts: 682
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby billbedford » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:49 pm

The trick is:-
    1/ to hold a carrier with a pair of pliers in such a way the the bottoms of the 'fingers' line up with the edge of the pliers' jaws.
    2/ gently push the middle finger with a small jewellers screwdriver ensuring that the screwdriver blade is below the etched line. If you push out the fingers above the etched line then that is where the finger will bend and you risk breaking the end off the finger. The finger should be bent just enough to thread in the wire.
    3/ with the wire in place gently squeeze the fingers just enough to hold the wire in place.

There's more info here
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

adigill
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:57 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby adigill » Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:34 pm

Thanks all for the reply's, I've got another fret so I'll give it another go.

User avatar
Steve Carter
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:51 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby Steve Carter » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:20 am

John McAleely wrote:I reckon this is the sort of thing it would be good to demonstrate at an area group meeting - no soldering (should be) required, and I reckon everyone will have different techniques.


Thanks John, nice of you to volunteer!!
I'll pencil you in for one of the future SLAG mutual improvement sessions 8-)
Cheers
Steve
Steve Carter

Lindsay G
Posts: 130
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:16 am

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby Lindsay G » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:55 am

The carriers seem to be a source of possible problems which I've also encountered in the past (perhaps my own fault). Once a carrier is goosed then a W iron is wasted. So, might future etches carry spare carriers? There's plenty of spare fret between the W irons and it wouldn't cost any more to produce them. A good bit of customer care?

Lindsay

User avatar
jim s-w
Posts: 1720
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby jim s-w » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:43 am

It would though, a new photo tool isn't free.

User avatar
John McAleely
Posts: 1114
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby John McAleely » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:02 am

Waterloo wrote:Thanks John, nice of you to volunteer!!
I'll pencil you in for one of the future SLAG mutual improvement sessions 8-)


Busted! Count me in.

User avatar
Russ Elliott
Posts: 930
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby Russ Elliott » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:56 am

Lindsay G wrote:So, might future etches carry spare carriers?

Bill took such a request on some 10 years ago after the first W-irons appeared. Most W-iron etches do now carry spare carriers, but as Jim says, there is a price to pay on new tools for upgrades to older artworks.

User avatar
Wizard of the Moor
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:02 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby Wizard of the Moor » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:55 pm

Bill also produced a "wagon bits" etch containing spare carriers. This is available from Eileens.

They probably don't suit all the varieties of W-irons in the range, but useful to have in the spares box.

adigill
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:57 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby adigill » Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:15 pm

Thank's for all your comments, I thought I would give them another go as I much prefer the idea of the springing route rather than rocking irons, I managed to get a whole fret's worth open and the wire in but still think them a bit weak so have run a very small amount of solder across the three tabs and the wire and this seems much stronger. A solution I'm happy with so onwards with the thirty plus wagon kit's waiting to be built.

User avatar
Flymo748
Posts: 2180
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:00 pm

adigill wrote:Thank's for all your comments, I thought I would give them another go as I much prefer the idea of the springing route rather than rocking irons, I managed to get a whole fret's worth open and the wire in but still think them a bit weak so have run a very small amount of solder across the three tabs and the wire and this seems much stronger. A solution I'm happy with so onwards with the thirty plus wagon kit's waiting to be built.

FWIW, I've done the soldering trick after breaking a couple of the tabs off in the past, and there seem to be no noticeable negative effects.

So if it works for you as well, then let the modelling continue...

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby jayell » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:13 pm

I know the original postings were back in 2013 but I am currently putting together some wagon kits and using the BB w-irons but seem to be running out of the spring wire, probably because I cut it over length to start off with to make it easier to see/handle.

Bill talks about using guitar wire (11 or 12 gauge) but this doesn't seem to be listed on Eileen's Emporium site although spring wire is. Is guitar wire the same as piano wire and the same as the stuff Eileen's sells?

I am putting together my shopping list for scaleforum ;)

john

User avatar
Mike Garwood
Posts: 514
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:51 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby Mike Garwood » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:18 pm

My local music store has this type, I dare say there are others, but this is what is available to me. No idea of value for money, as they are only a couple of quid...

http://www.ernieball.com/products/elect ... ngs?filter[501]=4756

Mike

allanferguson
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:27 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby allanferguson » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:27 pm

http://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/strings-c1

Is where I've got mine. Ernie Ball are the cheapest (therefore the best!) Make sure you choose unwound (i.e. plain steel). Cheap enough for it not to matter. They have a range from 8 thou to 13 thou, and they all have a place in my box! Very speedy service.

Allan F

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:30 pm

The best way to get guitar wire is from a music shop, if you don't have one locally there are plenty on line. "Ernie Ball" are one of the commoner brands, eg this is the 11 thou
I would get in some 9 and 10 thou as well as the 11 and 12, they will be more suited to wagons.
Regards
Keith

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby jayell » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:26 pm

Mike Garwood wrote:My local music store has this type, I dare say there are others, but this is what is available to me. No idea of value for money, as they are only a couple of quid...

http://www.ernieball.com/products/elect ... ngs?filter[501]=4756
Mike


Thanks Mike Allan & Keith, I have ordered one each of 9, 10, 11 & 12, works out at £1 each so won't break the bank.

It is going to cost me three times that to get a pair of hard wire cutters off ebay. The cutters I currently have, with the exception of the Xuron rail cutters which I don't want to spoil, have all curled up their toes when asked to cut the wire supplied with the BB w-irons needing me to stone out the nicks that every cut put into the cutting edges.

In fact they don't do a very good job of cutting electrical wire even so hope the cutters I have ordered will truly cut hard wire as advertised. I seem to have lost the ex-GPO side cutters I inherited from my Father which were brilliant at keeping their edge.

John

PS I had no idea that there were so many types of guitar string so am really thankful for the guidance on what to get.

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:25 pm

Hi Mike,
looks like you have found a quirk in the system, it won't create a link properly if there are square brackets in the url, hence the "filter[501]=" is ignored. I think this is because the BB codes use squre brackets so it sees a square bracket as the end of the url. Something to watch for, but John found them anyway.
Regards
Keith

allanferguson
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:27 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby allanferguson » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:39 pm

johnlewis wrote:
It is going to cost me three times that to get a pair of hard wire cutters off ebay. The cutters I currently have, with the exception of the Xuron rail cutters which I don't want to spoil, have all curled up their toes when asked to cut the wire supplied with the BB w-irons needing me to stone out the nicks that every cut put into the cutting edges.

In fact they don't do a very good job of cutting electrical wire even so hope the cutters I have ordered will truly cut hard wire as advertised. I seem to have lost the ex-GPO side cutters I inherited from my Father which were brilliant at keeping their edge.




I've never tried to cut hard wire. Hold the wire tightly in a pair of pliers and bend it back and forth a few times. It will usually break where it's held by the pliers. I have very occasionally used a cutting disk in the dremel to tidy up the end; even more occasionally used the cutting disc to cut the wire (But protect your eyes).

Allan F

User avatar
stevecarr
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:00 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby stevecarr » Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:32 am

Xuran do hard wire cutters , blue handles, they cut 11 th with no problems.

User avatar
Dave K
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:11 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby Dave K » Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:21 am

johnlewis wrote:It is going to cost me three times that to get a pair of hard wire cutters off ebay.

John,

I've got to agree with Steve the Xuron Hard Wire cutters are superb for cutting guitar string. If you are making a shopping list for Scaleforum you can get them from Eileen's.

User avatar
Guy Rixon
Posts: 603
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: Sprung W irons

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri Sep 19, 2014 9:24 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:Hi Mike,
looks like you have found a quirk in the system, it won't create a link properly if there are square brackets in the url, hence the "filter[501]=" is ignored. I think this is because the BB codes use squre brackets so it sees a square bracket as the end of the url. Something to watch for, but John found them anyway.
Regards
Keith


It looks like one needs to "URL-escape" the bracket characters. Opening square bracket should be replaced with the code %5B and closing square bracket with %5D (these codes found from http://www.december.com/html/spec/esccodes.html as I can never remember them).

The escaped URL from Mike's post would be http://www.ernieball.com/products/electric-strings?filter%5B501%5D=4756 - let's see if it works.


Return to “Wagons”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest