GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

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jayell
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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:04 pm

Noel wrote:No comment has been made about what sort of wagons the GE and Midland examples mentioned were,


The GE one was a five plank open and the MR one a three plank open.

John

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Flymo748
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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Flymo748 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:02 am

johnlewis wrote:
Noel wrote:No comment has been made about what sort of wagons the GE and Midland examples mentioned were,


The GE one was a five plank open and the MR one a three plank open.


If it's of help, can you send me off-list a copy of the picture with the GER wagon?

I'll happily dig through my GER reference information to see if I can narrow down the prototype. The GER built a *lot* (some 15,000) of standard five plank wagons to diagrams 16 and 17.

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Flymo
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jayell
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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:54 am

Flymo748 wrote:If it's of help, can you send me off-list a copy of the picture with the GER wagon?
I'll happily dig through my GER reference information to see if I can narrow down the prototype. The GER built a *lot* (some 15,000) of standard five plank wagons to diagrams 16 and 17.
Cheers Flymo


Hello Paul

does this link give a good enough pic for you, otherwise I'll have to scan the image in the book. I'll try contacting the museum to see if I can get a better image from them after the weekend.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61486724@N00/8486279017/

John

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Flymo748
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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Flymo748 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:05 am

johnlewis wrote:does this link give a good enough pic for you, otherwise I'll have to scan the image in the book. I'll try contacting the museum to see if I can get a better image from them after the weekend.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/61486724@N00/8486279017/


Hmm... Not quite clear enough for me to be certain. That's probably my eyesight though.

If it's the wagon next to the locomotive that you're referring to (there could be an "E" there but it is quite smudged), then the brake lever looks unusual for the majority of GER wagons.

I'd appreciate a pointer or two, or a clearer copy if possible.

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Flymo
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jayell
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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:40 am

Hello Paul

I've looked at the printed image in the book with a magnifying glass but cannot make out the 'E' any better. The G is clearly bigger than the G on the wagon after it. Could it be GC rather then GE, it was Bill Bedford that said it was GE but if it really is GC he is probably the best person to comment since he produces/produced kits of GC wagons

I googled for 'images of Great Central railway wagons' and that found loads of images but the GC ones seem to be all photos of models, Plenty of GE wagons though!

I will email Bridport Museum to see if I can purchase a copy of the original photo if this cannot easily be resolved.

John.

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Will L
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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Will L » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:09 pm

You are all being mislead by the G, which is, I agree, the shape used by the GER. But that break lever, Nar.

What you have there is in all probability a GNS (Great North of Scotland!!) 5 plank. They used this distinctive brake gear and painted their G's just like the GER. See Tatlow LNER Wagons V3 page 143-6.

Lesson, if you've got one of them trundling round the west country, there is very little of the same sort from any UK company that you can't justify. But possibly a good exhibition talking point.

Will

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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby johnWM » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:57 pm

johnlewis wrote:It looks though as that kit is of the metal ended version which is of a later period if I have read things correctly.


Both forms of the AA3 kit are available, metal or timber panels. It is in fact the same kit that was once marketed by Jim McGeown under the Connoisseur kits label.
See page 4 of this link to see photos of both ends of the timber version

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Wagon%20Kit%2 ... %20pdf.pdf

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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Bulwell Hall » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:41 pm

I'm really not sure about a six wheel goods brake van being used on the Bridport branch in 1910. I have a photo taken at Bridport of an AA3 in GWR livery in 1947 but in 1910 these vehicles would have been in use on the main line - usually on heavy coal trains. I would think that an early wooden outside frame goods brake van - as produced by D&S - would be much more likely - but I have no photos to prove it. In fact if any one can produce a photo of a goods train on the Bridport branch before the Great War I would be most interested to see it!

Gerry

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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:47 am

Will L wrote:You are all being mislead by the G, which is, I agree, the shape used by the GER. But that break lever, Nar.

Exactly, that's the aspect that immediately concerned me about it being GER. I don't recall, and couldn't find, an example of a photo of a GER wagon with that style. Tatlow refers to it as a "Scottish single-sided" precisely because of their predominance "up norf". The other significant user, I recall, is the LNWR but it's clearly not their livery.

Will L wrote:What you have there is in all probability a GNS (Great North of Scotland!!) 5 plank. They used this distinctive brake gear and painted their G's just like the GER. See Tatlow LNER Wagons V3 page 143-6.

Ah, that's a new one on me. My wagon fetish hasn't extended as far as purchasing Tatlow Vol.3 - I have nosebleeds if I think about things that far up the country ;-)

Will L wrote:Lesson, if you've got one of them trundling round the west country, there is very little of the same sort from any UK company that you can't justify. But possibly a good exhibition talking point.

Quite. Which is why I have two lovely Highland wagons in my stock box. It's my trainset...

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Flymo
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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby billbedford » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:19 am

Will L wrote:You are all being mislead by the G, which is, I agree, the shape used by the GER. But that break lever, Nar.

What you have there is in all probability a GNS (Great North of Scotland!!)


Too silly……...
Bill Bedford
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Will L
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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Will L » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:27 am

billbedford wrote:
Will L wrote:You are all being mislead by the G, which is, I agree, the shape used by the GER. But that break lever, Nar.

What you have there is in all probability a GNS (Great North of Scotland!!)


Too silly……...


Ok you go look at the pictures and then tell me why it isn't

Will

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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby billbedford » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:50 am

Flymo748 wrote:
Will L wrote:You are all being mislead by the G, which is, I agree, the shape used by the GER. But that break lever, Nar.

Exactly, that's the aspect that immediately concerned me about it being GER. I don't recall, and couldn't find, an example of a photo of a GER wagon with that style. Tatlow refers to it as a "Scottish single-sided" precisely because of their predominance "up norf". The other significant user, I recall, is the LNWR but it's clearly not their livery.


Not true. If you look back far enough into railway history you will find that most companies used single block brakes on wagons. The fact that there are no photos of them in our favourite picture books will have more to do with the availability and choice of photo for the book than whether particular wagons were extant at the time. There is every reason to suppose that pre-Holden, i.e. built before 1885, would still be in use in 1915, or even 1925.

It is interesting that people appear to believe what they 'know' rather than what they see.
Bill Bedford
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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Armchair Modeller » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:20 am

The leading wagon does look like the drawing on P51 of the original LNER Wagons book, of a GNS 5 plank coal wagon, though no brake gear is shown in the drawing.

However, the photo is claimed to be wartime in the caption, whereas the OP is interested in the period 1900-1910.

Presumably, by the time the OP's photo was taken the wartime wagon pooling arrangement had started, so a GNSR wagon could appear anywhere on the network. Unless a load originating on the GNSR was destined for the GWR, such a wagon ought never to appear on the GWR before the pooling arrangement began. Before the war, wagons had to be returned straight to the originating company once the load had been delivered. Officially, they could not be used for a journey somewhere else. (I bet it happened though!)
Last edited by Armchair Modeller on Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:27 am

Bulwell Hall wrote:I'm really not sure about a six wheel goods brake van being used on the Bridport branch in 1910. I have a photo taken at Bridport of an AA3 in GWR livery in 1947 but in 1910 these vehicles would have been in use on the main line - usually on heavy coal trains. I would think that an early wooden outside frame goods brake van - as produced by D&S - would be much more likely - but I have no photos to prove it. In fact if any one can produce a photo of a goods train on the Bridport branch before the Great War I would be most interested to see it!
Gerry


Thanks Gerry, I think if anyone knows what ran on the Bridport branch you'd be good bet. My only knowledge of that line is taken from what was written in "The Bridport Railway". One thing slowly becoming obvious to me is that 'dates when things happened' are a bit sparse once you get beyond major events, ie when stations were built.

So whilst we can be sure six wheel brake vans were used on the branch, as there are some steep gradients between Toller and Bridport, just when they started being used isn't stated. The photo you give a date to (1947) is included in the book and attributed to you but without any date. I was sure from the style that this vehicle as pictured couldn't have run in my chosen period but thought that it might have done in 'as built' condition. Looking at Bridport photos in the Disused Stations series it may be that the first goods vehicle in the left background is a brake van.

bridport(harden_early20thc)old65.jpg
bridport(harden_early20thc)old65.jpg (66.05 KiB) Viewed 4270 times


I am beginning to think that the only vehicles I can safely use on my diorama are the four 4 wheel coaches as everything else is suspect. Of course the Ratio coaches aren't correct but then the loco I am going to use, an 850 class saddle tank, isn't really correct either as the 2021 class ST had a slightly longer wheelbase.

As Gerry comments photos of goods trains on the Bridport branch are as common as hen's teeth, the only early photos are of vehicles in the siding at West Bay. One photo in the book says one vehicle in a line of 10 is an iron mink and next to it is a PO wagon of the Somerset Trading Company but it isn't identifiable as such from the reproduction in the book. The second photo, is probably the same line of vehicles but from a closer viewpoint and two of the three trucks can be identified, a three plank open no. 51380 and a two plank open no. 6683. The third is sheeted so number is hidden. These photos are dated Jun 1900 (1906 in the Disused Stations web page for West Bay).

John

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Will L
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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Will L » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:16 am

billbedford wrote:[If you look back far enough into railway history you will find that most companies used single block brakes on wagons. The fact that there are no photos of them in our favourite picture books will have more to do with the availability and choice of photo for the book than whether particular wagons were extant at the time. There is every reason to suppose that pre-Holden, i.e. built before 1885, would still be in use in 1915, or even 1925.

It is interesting that people appear to believe what they 'know' rather than what they see.


Interesting choice of words. Suggest you have a look here, and see what you see. This research, with photographs of pre Holden stock, suggest that until 1880 GER general merchandising wagons were rounded ended, and when fitted with brakes at all had a standard V hanger design with great big wooden brakes on both wheels on one side of the wagon, which were pretty distinctive. Over time they got metal brake blocks but again standard V hanger design with two brake blocks. More to the point, as well as having round ends, GER Wagons of that era are archaic looking, they have internal angle irons on the corners for instance. It was Holden's arrival in 1885, that introduced what was then, a modern approach to wagon building and a less archaic look to the wagons.

Then if you have a look at Johns Photo off Flicker
There you will see that compared with the 1880's GER production we have a much more "modern" 5 plank vehicle with later standard wagon body features like corner plates, and iron knees to support the sides. With that body its not an early GER wagon.

Then when you discover that, unlike all the other Greats, the GNS uses the same distinctive style of G as the GER, as seen in the photo, and did use one wheel brakes just like in the photo under later standard style 5 plank wagon bodies.

At that point I don't think it is a mater of what I believe I know, until I did the research I didn't know much and believed less. That this is a GNS wagon is the only thing that fits the observable evidence.

I can't see why you're so certain its not. If the picture was pre world war 1 I might share you scepticism, but it isn't so all these wagons are by then common user and could wander anywhere. I'll give you that it wasn't a common occurrence but it's nice little touches like this that make the research fun, isn't it?

Will
Last edited by Will L on Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bulwell Hall
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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Bulwell Hall » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:02 pm

John

Just to reiterate- I don't say that the six wheel goods brake vans didn't work on the Bridport branch in 1910 but I do think it unlikely at that time. However the Bridport branch was quite steeply graded as you say and goods trains could be well loaded so they could have done. So heavy could the goods traffic be that in more recent times at least there was a path in the Working Time Table for an additional goods train to run after the passenger service had finished for the day if traffic demanded it. The goods brake van was also required to be vacuum fitted - or at least through piped and with a brake setter operable by the guard - as it ran in the daily mixed train from Maiden Newton to Bridport. Latterly the vacuum fitted goods brake van was equipped with steam heating pipes - possibly unique on a goods brake van - and for that reason it remained on the Bridport branch for a considerable number of years specifically for this duty.

The photo of six wheel goods brake van No. 56943 that you mention was actually taken by my father - in 1954 I believe - whilst the photo that I have of the same vehicle in GWR livery was taken in 1947 by Jim Russell. When the six wheeler was withdrawn - I'm not sure when but probably not too long after my father photographed it - it was replaced by a more modern standard vacuum fitted 20ton Toad which was specifically branded 'Bridport RU'

The vehicle against the buffer stops at Bridport in the photo that you show does not look like a goods brake van to me - it looks very much like one of the early four wheel milk Siphons built in the 1880s and all scrapped before the First World War. GWR goods brake vans had a verandah at one end and cabin windows at the opposite end.

So far as good stock on the Bridport branch in 1910 is concerned it would have comprised of a majority of GWR vehicles. The wagon pool was still in the future so much of the traffic would have used GWR wagons. Open wagons were well in the majority before the Great War and most of them would have been four plank opens. The numbers of five plankers were low at that time by comparison with later years. Vans were also in the minority and would have comprised some numbers of Iron Minks, a smaller number of wooden framed minks and a few of the new steel framed Minks which increased in numbers quite significantly in the 1920s. Other railway companies wagons would have depended on the origin of the consignment and anything could show up. Coal wagons were privately owned with some being local coal merchants and others from collieries mostly in the Somerset, Forest of Dean and South Wales coalfields.

I hope all this is of interest and helps. If anybody does manage to produce a photo of a goods train on the Bridport branch before The Great War could you also ask them if they might also happen to have a photo of any broad gauge train taken anywhere in Dorset - I'd love to see that as well!

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Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:40 pm

Thank you Gerry for your comments on brake vans on the Bridport Branch, I have now been give a photocopy of an article by the writer John Lewis about the early types of brake vans and I think I'll try to model one of these for my diorama when I start building rolling stock, it seems from what you say that a representative train could consist of several 4 plank opens, an iron mink and some PO coal wagons.

John


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