GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Sun Sep 22, 2013 11:36 am

It may well be that I haven't looked in the right places but I cannot find suitable underframes for 1900 era GW wagons to replace the ones in the Coopercraft kits.

I am considering the Coopercraft kits as there don't seem to be any other makers with kits suitable for my period so I want to build sometime in the near future one or more of the following kits, 1001W, 1004W, 1006W, and 1008W for the bodies which will need a fair amount of modification, in particular the open ones where the floor height is wrong

I'm putting together a shopping list of the stuff I need to get in addition to the kits:-

Underframes with springing to replace the coopercraft ones, I'm not really sure if the Bill Bedford underframe units are right for GWR but possibly one of his w iron types will be OK.

Brakes, I think should be a brass etching to get crispness of detail but wonder if I'll find the parts a bit small to work with. I have a problem with my right hand 'trembling' these days so don't have good control of it.

Wheels, I think they should be 8 solid spoke types and it shouldn't be difficult to get suitable ones.

Buffers and 3 link couplings are perhaps the easiest to source.

Suggestions will be very welcome

John

User avatar
Russ Elliott
Posts: 930
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Russ Elliott » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:14 pm

johnlewis wrote:I am considering the Coopercraft kits as there don't seem to be any other makers with kits suitable for my period

See here. MJT, ABS, Masokits, Bill Bedford, Craig Welsh, and MRD do quite a lot of cast or etched parts. See here for example.

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:23 pm

Hi Russ

Thanks for responding. The gwr.org.uk is essential reading and I keep going back to those pages but I get confused _because_ there is so much data to sift through.

The only wagons likely to have been seen on 'my' branch would have been open wagons plus a few vans so the vast majority of the types listed on the wagons page you point me towards are either un-suitable or much too modern.

The biggest problem though is sorting out what 'accessories' ( w irons, brakes etc) will be right for a low traffic branch, in a fairly obscure part of GWR territory in my chosen period, hence me asking for some help in picking the right bits.

There is one vehicle there is no doubt about though and that is the 20 ton, six wheel brake van, Bridport based, serial no 56943. There is a photo of this in 'The Bridport Branch' so it is, hopefully, just a question of looking for the kit of a toad that most resembles the one in the photo and adding the third pair of wheels.

John

User avatar
David B
Posts: 1102
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby David B » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:30 pm

There is the Morgan Design range of underframes. They are available from the Society stores.

User avatar
Russ Elliott
Posts: 930
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Russ Elliott » Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:54 pm

johnlewis wrote:The only wagons likely to have been seen on 'my' branch would have been open wagons plus a few vans so the vast majority of the types listed on the wagons page you point me towards are either un-suitable or much too modern.

All the GWR wagons you need are on that list in one shape or another, including the AA1 6-wheel Toad, although for your period you may need to scratchbuild some 1- and 2-plank opens.

If you've set your heart on that obscure and largely model-uncommercial era, you'll need books, and you'll need to study them, because GWR wagons were going through a significant period of design transition in that decade: the slow move to double-sided brakes, the first Dean-Churchward brakes, the adoption of oil boxes rather than grease, improved buffer styles and brake blocks, etc etc. GWR 1910 wagon detail looked a different animal to what it looked like in 1900. Suggest check out Mikkel's Farthing layout articles both on gwr.org.uk and on RMweb.

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:36 pm

Part of the problem is lack of photographs, there is a small (published) collection of photos of trains on the branch but as usual it is passenger trains that make up the bulk of them and the few goods trains with identifiable wagon types are mostly of a later period.

I now have a better idea of which stands to visit at Aylesbury but at the moment my spending priorities must be more track related stuff so wagons will have to wait a while. My pension will only stretch so far.

John

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:23 am

Russ Elliott wrote:All the GWR wagons you need are on that list in one shape or another, including the AA1 6-wheel Toad, although for your period you may need to scratchbuild some 1- and 2-plank opens.


I had noted the AA1 6 wheel toad kit but it is rather expensive at £38, that would buy a lot of plastic kits :cry:

John

billbedford
Posts: 674
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby billbedford » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:07 am

Russ Elliott wrote:f you've set your heart on that obscure and largely model-uncommercial era, you'll need books, and you'll need to study them, because GWR wagons were going through a significant period of design transition in that decade: the slow move to double-sided brakes, the first Dean-Churchward brakes, the adoption of oil boxes rather than grease, improved buffer styles and brake blocks, etc etc. GWR 1910 wagon detail looked a different animal to what it looked like in 1900.

This would apply to new build wagons? if so there would still be very many wagons built in the 1890s and even 1880s around in 1910. There would also be some 'foreign' wagons too, I would guess mainly LSW and MR but others are possible, and private owner coal wagons, from Somerset, South Wales or the West Midlands.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

billbedford
Posts: 674
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby billbedford » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:09 am

johnlewis wrote:I had noted the AA1 6 wheel toad kit but it is rather expensive at £38, that would buy a lot of plastic kits :cry:


You can have accurate, easy or cheap, but you can only pick two out of the three.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

User avatar
Dave K
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:11 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Dave K » Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:46 am

johnlewis wrote:It may well be that I haven't looked in the right places but I cannot find suitable underframes for 1900 era GW wagons to replace the ones in the Coopercraft kits.

I am considering the Coopercraft kits as there don't seem to be any other makers with kits suitable for my period so I want to build sometime in the near future one or more of the following kits, 1001W, 1004W, 1006W, and 1008W for the bodies which will need a fair amount of modification, in particular the open ones where the floor height is wrong

I use have used the Exactoscale sprung underframe units (but you need the 9" kits for channel solebar wagons) but have tried the Morgan Design ones (the S4 Stores will have examples at the weekend).

But before you start building any Coopercrft wagons I would suggest you read "modified Coopercraft GWR Wagons Kits by Roy Miller", this was published in 1979 by the EM Gauge Society. This give a suggested method of reduceing the the floor height among other things. If you would like a copy I can copy it and bring it to Aylesbury at the weekend :?:

Nowadays I replacing the solebars with etched ones from Southwark Bridge Models or Morgan Designs, saves a lot of time filling away the backs of the Coopercraft solebars and replacement springs and axle boxes are available from MJT.

The only model of the 6W Toad (AA1) is the Southwark Bridge Model AA1/AA3 one which comes as either planked or metal veranda.

User avatar
Russ Elliott
Posts: 930
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Russ Elliott » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:02 am

billbedford wrote:This would apply to new build wagons? if so there would still be very many wagons built in the 1890s and even 1880s around in 1910. There would also be some 'foreign' wagons too, I would guess mainly LSW and MR but others are possible, and private owner coal wagons, from Somerset, South Wales or the West Midlands.

Yes, yes and yes. By 1910 though, many of the older 1880s/90s GWR specimens would have been carrying some brake and axlebox upgrades, as well as the new grey livery of course. The 1900 'picture' is different. Wagon-wise, a lot of guesswork is required for the 1900-10 period, but on the plus side, modellers' licence can rule because the photographic record of freight trains in that era is minimal or even non-existent.

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:17 am

dave k wrote:But before you start building any Coopercrft wagons I would suggest you read "modified Coopercraft GWR Wagons Kits by Roy Miller", this was published in 1979 by the EM Gauge Society. This give a suggested method of reduceing the the floor height among other things. If you would like a copy I can copy it and bring it to Aylesbury at the weekend :?:


Yes please Dave

John

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:18 am

Russ Elliott wrote:Suggest check out Mikkel's Farthing layout articles both on gwr.org.uk and on RMweb.


Thanks Russ, have spent the last couple of hours reading Mikkels Farthing blogs

John

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:12 pm

billbedford wrote:This would apply to new build wagons? if so there would still be very many wagons built in the 1890s and even 1880s around in 1910. There would also be some 'foreign' wagons too, I would guess mainly LSW and MR but others are possible, and private owner coal wagons, from Somerset, South Wales or the West Midlands.


There would have been some PO coal wagons from Somerset & S Wales passing through Toller on their way to Bridport. Some of these would have been dropped off at Toller, when being returned empty, for loading with pit props from the local sawmill, 4/5 wagon loads a day was fairly normal.

Two weekday down goods trains and two up plus an up mixed train are shown in the 1910 working timetable.

(Bridport) local coal & building material distributors with PO wagons were Sullys of Bridgewater, The Somerset Trading Co, Ralls & Sons, Bradfords and possibly Bryer Ash. I imagine some coal would be distributed locally from the sidings at Toller & Powerstock as I doubt it would be delivered so far from Bridport by horse & cart. (The first farm tractor wasn't seen in Toller until the 1930s, the horse reigned supreme 'till then)

There is clear evidence of a MR wagon on the branch but rather later than my chosen time period. The Bridport Branch book has a couple of photos showing wagons being loaded direct from the trackside with timber from Powerstock Forest, whilst most identifiable wagons have GW there is one with MR. This was during timber shortages in WW1.

John

User avatar
Flymo748
Posts: 2177
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:00 pm

dave k wrote:But before you start building any Coopercrft wagons I would suggest you read "modified Coopercraft GWR Wagons Kits by Roy Miller", this was published in 1979 by the EM Gauge Society. This give a suggested method of reduceing the the floor height among other things.


I've just asked the EMGS if this is still available. I'm a member over there as well, but I can't find reference to it in the EMGS Manual or on their website.

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

johnWM
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:33 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby johnWM » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:47 pm

AA3 brake vans are available a bit cheaper, but as far as I know not the 6 wheel version.

http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/frogmore.php

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:14 pm

johnWM wrote:AA3 brake vans are available a bit cheaper, but as far as I know not the 6 wheel version.

http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/frogmore.php


It looks though as that kit is of the metal ended version which is of a later period if I have read things correctly. I really ought to do as advocated in another thread and write stuff down ;)

John

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:55 pm

I came across this link just now and it has lots of info re toads

www.amra-wa-branch.asn.au/SIG/AMRA-GWR-SIG-Notes.pdf

From that it looks like the one I want is quite different to most other vans I have seen pictured, especially the hand rails which seem to be missing the lower part along the van side.

John

User avatar
Dave K
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:11 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Dave K » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:52 am

Flymo748 wrote:
dave k wrote:But before you start building any Coopercrft wagons I would suggest you read "modified Coopercraft GWR Wagons Kits by Roy Miller", this was published in 1979 by the EM Gauge Society. This give a suggested method of reduceing the the floor height among other things.


I've just asked the EMGS if this is still available. I'm a member over there as well, but I can't find reference to it in the EMGS Manual or on their website.

The article was published in the Summer 1979 edition of "The Marshalling Yard" then the Journal of the EM Gauge Society. Will bring along my copy to Aylesbury.

johnlewis wrote:It looks though as that kit is of the metal ended version which is of a later period if I have read things correctly.

Yes I believe that the sheeting over of the ends and side started from about 1918, but the Southwark Bridge planked kit can be built as planked sides and ends or sheeted sides and the metal veranda with either planked or sheeted sides.

If you want an early brake van you could look at the ex-D&S outside framed 1882 type not sold by ABS (not the clasp brake version). There is an article about them in one of the early British Railway Journal's

User avatar
Dave K
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:11 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Dave K » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:00 am

johnlewis wrote:
dave k wrote:But before you start building any Coopercrft wagons I would suggest you read "modified Coopercraft GWR Wagons Kits by Roy Miller", this was published in 1979 by the EM Gauge Society. This give a suggested method of reduceing the the floor height among other things. If you would like a copy I can copy it and bring it to Aylesbury at the weekend :?:


Yes please Dave

John,

Will leave a copy of the Society stand for you as I'm selling tickets at the weekend.

billbedford
Posts: 674
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby billbedford » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:36 am

johnlewis wrote:There would have been some PO coal wagons from Somerset & S Wales passing through Toller on their way to Bridport. Some of these would have been dropped off at Toller, when being returned empty, for loading with pit props from the local sawmill, 4/5 wagon loads a day was fairly normal.


I would very much doubt local saw mill were producing pit props at this time. These were invariably softwood rounds imported by sea from the Baltic.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:49 am

billbedford wrote:
johnlewis wrote:There would have been some PO coal wagons from Somerset & S Wales passing through Toller on their way to Bridport. Some of these would have been dropped off at Toller, when being returned empty, for loading with pit props from the local sawmill, 4/5 wagon loads a day was fairly normal.


I would very much doubt local saw mill were producing pit props at this time. These were invariably softwood rounds imported by sea from the Baltic.


I can only cite what is on the disused stations site as evidence:-

" Toller handled watercress for Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield and Bolton and boxes for Kentish fruit markets, railway sleepers and wood for collieries from sawmills. "

Plus "The Bridport Branch" says empty coal wagons were used for shipping pit props from the sawmill at Toller. That sawmill only lasted a short time after the railway was closed.

I don't know if any records of the sawmill survive but next time we are in Dorchester I'll check in the Records Office to see if they hold anything. I also have no idea if any GWR records of goods traffic on the branch survive but I suspect there won't be anything.

No watercress is produced at Toller these days but The Watercress Company have a number of farms around Dorchester
http://www.thewatercresscompany.co.uk/

John

billbedford
Posts: 674
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby billbedford » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:19 am

johnlewis wrote:I can only cite what is on the disused stations site as evidence:-

" Toller handled watercress for Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield and Bolton and boxes for Kentish fruit markets, railway sleepers and wood for collieries from sawmills. "

Plus "The Bridport Branch" says empty coal wagons were used for shipping pit props from the sawmill at Toller. That sawmill only lasted a short time after the railway was closed.


Both pit props and sleepers were made from softwoods, and I don't recall Dorset being covered with coniferous forests -- at least until the Forestry Commission was set up in WW1.

There is a photo in the Bridport collection that shows a train of timber logs, but they all look to have a too big a diameter for pit props. And the first wagon is Great Eastern.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby jayell » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:07 pm

billbedford wrote:There is a photo in the Bridport collection that shows a train of timber logs, but they all look to have a too big a diameter for pit props. And the first wagon is Great Eastern.


Yes, that photo is of oaks cut down in Powerstock Forest during timber shortages during WW1, they were loaded by a gang of labourers from the side of track into the trucks to avoid extra haulage. There is another photo, not in the Bridport pics on flickr but in the book, and attributed to Bridport Museum, showing the logs being loaded and that shows a MR wagon in the train.

Being wartime I guess all sorts of wagons were rounded up and taken to Bridport before being formed into this train, was it a one off or was it a regular occurence?

B L Jackson was born in Weymouth and M J Tattershall in Bridport, both are involved with research into local transport and Brian has written several other railway books as can be seen here
http://www.amazon.com/B.-L.-Jackson/e/B001KMD5AY

One would assume that the authors of the 'The Bridport Railway' knew what they were writing about and had thoroughly researched their subject. On that basis I think I shall continue to assume timber products were loaded at Toller.

However I do not know when Galpin's sawmill was established so it is possible the references to production of pit props and sleepers refer to a period after the first world war. The Galpin family can be found in all the census records for Toller as carpenters, wheelwrights or builders, they are recorded as wagon and coach builders in one of the histories of Toller which fits with the occupation of wheelwright. So something else I need to search for at Dorset Records Office is a date for the sawmill. There is a Galpins Sawmill listed in Dorchester today,


John

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: GWR Wagons, 1900-1910 era

Postby Noel » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:18 pm

No comment has been made about what sort of wagons the GE and Midland examples mentioned were, but if they were opens, their medium and high opens were common user on the GW after April 1916 [Midland] or January 1917 [GE]. Timber in colliery wagons need not have been for pit props; large collieries did their own wagon repairs, and some needed substantial timber shuttering to keep the roof up. Also, collieries would have used timber in building various structures, both above and below ground [they also used quite a lot of bricks, and had their own bricklayers].

Noel
Regards
Noel


Return to “Wagons”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests