Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

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Andy W
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Andy W » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:21 pm

Good to have you back Mr K.
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Flymo748
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:32 am

Knuckles wrote:To those in the know - would you say 4 wagons is enough for properly test Dingham's with the magnet instillation? I could add couplings to a loco if need be too.


In short, yes, more than enough. In fact, I would (and do) do it slightly differently.

I would keep one specific wagon (remember which one! With me it's an LNWR open) as the "master", and check all other vehicles against that. Then you don't get a "Chinese Whispers" phenomena of each wagon being slightly different to its mate, so that #11 couples to #12, but is too different to couple to #1.

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:36 am

Awesome idea. I'll probably impliment that then. I have not a propper buffer height gauge but I do have S4 Multigauge so I should be ok.

Thanks for the tips. :)
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:23 pm

I posed a question here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=1303
but as of yet no one answered it.

So being impatient as I am it spurred me to find out. I ask the questions for the same reason as we all do, to learn, make life easier, and save time, also potentially saving money by not making a mess of things. Yet finding out yourself doesn't hurt sometimes. I'm not whinging by the way, just setting you up for this post.
I'd still like your thoughts on that thread regardless though. :thumb

Ok, so.

I built a wagon way back in 2004, when I was working for the UN in Cyprus. I fitted it with Slaters 3 links, and other than that it was pretty much a standard build. Over the years it got somewhat battered on my layout and was generally neglected.

Being a slightly nostalgic piece and wanting another P4 wagon, I thought I'd have a go at simultaneously restoring and converting it.

Now with P4 wheels popped in, one wheel-set rolled nicely, the other didn't. This I tried to rectify by melting in some bearings which I'm sad to say became a whopping great fail. There's no way to explain it, it just...well, didn't work. So then I thought 'Oh dear, looks like I'm going to have to faff with this one'.

I like Bill Bedford's springing units as I think you know. Real easy to make, and not that hard to install. Wagon rolling resembles greased cow dung. That scores high in my book, only problem is I've only so far built them off the wagon, not in situe. Seeing as I wanted to know how a fixed axle combined with one sprung axle ran, I guess now was my time to find out.

I proceeded by Xuron clipping the frame detail to oblivion, followed by trying to clip the W-Irons thinner as I would if already off the wagon, being fixed I didn't do too well and ended up clipping them off and retaining the axle box and springs like on my other wagons. One I broke....AS ALWAYS! :twisted: It's a rule you see, I finally understand it. It must be a rule of Will's Carpet God...

"Thou Shalt break at least one axle box and spring when attempting to retain them, for in doing so though shalt build up the railway modelling industry by necessitating the purchase of a cast replacement." Luckily I already have some replacements.


First pic. Nice mess.
Image


Second pic. Clipped space smoothed with mini drill, complete with a packet of Oatcakes and my favourite tea mug containing Yorkshire tea, black, one flat sugar - perfect.
Image


Third pic. W-Iron assembly test fitted. I used Brassmasters axle spacing gauge to help as always, but Unlike most times when doing this, it was a very tight fit which helped a lot for roll testing on my layout. I usually use some contact adhesive to test it then superglue it when happy. (Unsure on best methods, open to suggestion) Whilst testing I used a little bit of lead stuck to blue tack on top of the roof. I was very surprised with the performance. Usually I have to piss fart about getting it to roll straight because maybe an axle is at an angle or whatever. I suppose only having one won me a success first attempt. Rare indeed.
Image


Fourth pic. Having drilled the axlebox holes into an oval to make room for the springing, I superglued the retained plastic box and springs on one side, and on this side you can see the casting with superglue. I think actually the casting might be a different type of box altogether, that or a much more accurate one. it looks a wee bit different. Either way I can live with it. Furthermore the ba that joins both W-Iron bottoms has been reinstated by soldering with some 1mm x 0.5mm x How Long Do You Want Me? Oh yeah, I melted it in on the plastic end, followed by a small superglue dab.
Image


Fifth pic. Ends clipped. Might need to trim or file a bit more though. Wagon paintwork here is 9 years old btw. Still quite happy with it.
Image


Sixth pic. These are the castings I used if anyone's interested.
Image

Seventh pic. Becasue I drilled a massive hole in the past, the 3 links kept twisting sideways, now that I have the hole I needed to close it. Luckily Dingham supply several 'Thingummy's' on the fret. You can see it on the black handles. To make room for it I cut the original thing out of the way. Name please? :(
Image

Eighth pic. Please read text in pic.
Image

Ninth pic. Please read text in pic 2.
Image

Tenth pic. Sort of finished. The lighting was real bad at this point so all the colours are wrong, plus I have weathered it a slight over how it already was. Not sure those black blanks are real, might make them lighter to represent new ones. I was going to wait until I've lettered it before I showed you but I haven't any the right size so that will have to wait.
Image

Eleventh pic. REWARD!!!
Image

:D
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby DougN » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:55 am

Looks good there Knuckles... I wish my "been round the world" wagon looked as good. your work here suggests that I should remove my digit and get on and fix up the old dear... a LNER all steel open from Parkside Dundas... Lunch looked nice BTW ;) then again it would just add to the clutter on the workbench.... i really need to clean it up and finish off all the projects that need the completion done. (I have a bad habit of getting to 90% and stopping over the last couple of years)
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Flymo748
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:35 am

DougN wrote:i really need to clean it up and finish off all the projects that need the completion done. (I have a bad habit of getting to 90% and stopping over the last couple of years)


This is why I *really* need to finish one or two projects before starting _anything_ else!

Oh well, the Y14 is currently on the workbench. Maybe finishing the DCC fitting of that is this evening's task...

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:59 pm

your work here suggests that I should remove my digit and get on and fix up the old dear

Ok. Glad I've motivated you somehow. Although if you have to pull your finger out, why was it even there in the first place? :D (too good an opportunity to not ask, sorry. :mrgreen: )

Lunch looked nice BTW

Oh it was! A proper English sandwich, complete with flagstone slices. Not the namby pamby pre sliced crap we are so acoustomed to these days.

(I have a bad habit of getting to 90% and stopping over the last couple of years)

I have a different problem; I spend 90% of the time thinking, dreaming and planning, and it takes ages before I get to the first 10% of things. This is with many aspects of life sadly.

This is why I *really* need to finish one or two projects before starting _anything_ else!

Well that's two of you so far, anymore!?
the Y14 is currently on the workbench

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Was following it with interest. :)

EDIT: The following I've already posted on another thread but I might as well post it here to complete things, it is after all the correct thread.

*****I forgot to mention in the write up that I drilled the buffer shanks and added steel buffers. Was probably obvious. I also forgot to mention that I'm really happy with the compromised result of one fixed axle and one sprung axle. This example works really well, almost as good as the fully sprung ones, and so, I guess you could call it luxury compensation! You also get 50% more wagons converted for your money.
The fact that the track work isn't perfect and has a couple of rough patches might actually be an advantage, for when I build things, if they are happy then they should be even happier on perfect track.*****
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:33 pm

Anything further to the above? If not no probs.

--------------
Warning: Naughty Post.

0 Gauge 20T Brake Van.

Why? Because I've always fancied having a crack at 0 gauge but am always put off by two things; lack of room for anything substantial and the price, often being around 8 times as much. It's a bit unrealistic for some of us. Anyway, when I was on holiday in Devon I picked up this Parkside Dundas kit for £40 save a penny. Thought I might as well have a go and see how I feel about things. I've decided to model it in Pre 1936 condition.

Don't worry though, If I do decide to do anything about it, like a layout for instance, it won't be to the detriment of P4. I'm still very much determined to get the planned layout/s done in good time. If I ever do an 0 gauge (or Scale 7??) layout, it will have to fit above the P4 one. This might just about be possible as I looked, but I'll know in the future.
-
So, this is the kit mostly built. I decided early on to leave the couplings, buffers and glazing until almost last to avoid gumming or frosting things.
Image
This is the complex brake gear you have to model. It took me an age understanding the instructions and ended up cutting something in half that I wasn't supposed to. After fixing things I finally managed it. I must admit though, I made a mess of this, was about the first thing I can honestly say beat me outright. It' done, but bodged, badly fitted and I left one bit stiffly hinged to provide wheel release. Plus I just couldn't do it right. Much weathering to the rescue. (Isn't it always the case?)
Image
For the roof I wanted to try that '1 ply tissue paper' trick to represent canvas material. I've only ever read about it many times, so after a think I decided how to go about it.
First I painted the roof fairly thickly with grey, then smoothed the tissue ply over the top so half of it soaks in, then after a short time completely soacked it in Butanone. This stuck the tissue properly and released some more colour. After that I weather powdered it followed by chipping some away to represent damage. Verdict: Very happy with the result.
Image
Image
The following pics are just a collection of finished shots. Please understand I couldn't get the lighting, and thus colours perfect in shot so you'll have to mentally put it all together.
It was painted with Humbrol enamel paints, and weathered with both enamel and acrylic, but mainly the former. Weathering comprised of my usual method of applying a few washes, followed by dry brushing, followed by weathering powders. It has had a coat of hair spray or two also inbetween powder layers. I find for some reason hairspray of any varnish from a spray seems to blow away and change the colour of some of the powder. So It's usually a repetition of these last two stages until I'm happy. Oh yeah, the door bars have been made to be hinged, so if I lift them off the holder they dangle! Extra play value, even better now they are painted, for they don't bounce out so easily due to the extra thickness.

On one side the lettering is abit of a mess, this is because for some reason the weathering powders decided to stick to much, then when I tried to soften things it just looked dark grey, and so a session of painting over the letters in white, followed by more weathering and rubbing down, repeat, ensued. I'm not touching it any more as it's the best I've managed to get it. You'll notice it in the pictures. I've never used these type of transfers before but I like them; you apply them like a Pressfix but then soak them to remove the backing off. The wagon numbers are a little off angle too in places, but I've done my best. These had to be applied on top of the black base.
This first pic shows where my solvent washes got a bit excessive and lifted some of the paint. At first I thought 'Arse', then when it dried it layered itself 50%, I actually like the effect becasue to me it looks like paint has started to lift and peel.....well, it has, but I mean it looks realistic to me also. Good excuse again!
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Minor quibbles aside, I'm really pleased with this. Not only has most of it gone together nicely but I'm feeling a little smug. I've amazed myself with the finished result, it's just to my eye looks so real. That's probably because it's a bigger model.
Well, I'm happy regardless.

What you think? :)
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Philip Hall
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Philip Hall » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:00 pm

Very nicely done. I like the roof and the weathering especially.

Philip

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby David Knight » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:42 pm

The Dark Side beckons :shock:

Cheers,

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Armchair Modeller » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:51 pm

Well, if I were you I would get the naughty Knuckles to do all your modelling from now on - not just the 7mm stuff ;)

That looks superb - well done!

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:54 am

Knuckles wrote:Minor quibbles aside, I'm really pleased with this. Not only has most of it gone together nicely but I'm feeling a little smug. I've amazed myself with the finished result, it's just to my eye looks so real. That's probably because it's a bigger model.
Well, I'm happy regardless.

What you think? :)


Knuckles, very nice indeed... I particularly like the roof effect. That is excellently done. The paint crazing in just restrained enough to be effective as well.

If I was to make one suggestion, it would be to put some metal black (do you have any Casey's Gun Blue?) on the buffer shanks and heads, and then a little black/gunmetal to represent grease. That will tone them down nicely.

It's not the same type of brake van, but I found this picture that shows the sort of thing that I mean:

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brlmsbrakevan/h3bb8032a#h3bb8032a

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:01 am

Thanks Flymo. :)

(Edit: and thanks to you two also, sorry for not acknowledging.)

I do have some metal black..I actually pre blackened the couplings but doing the buffers escaped me for some reason. I dont have the gun metal colour but I do have other metalic shades.

What is paint crazing?
Last edited by Knuckles on Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:35 am

Knuckles wrote:I do have some metal black..I actually pre blackened the couplings but doing the buffers escaped me for some reason. I dont have the gun metal colour but I do have other metalic shades.

What is paint crazing?


"This first pic shows where my solvent washes got a bit excessive and lifted some of the paint. At first I thought 'Arse', then when it dried it layered itself 50%, I actually like the effect becasue to me it looks like paint has started to lift and peel.....well, it has, but I mean it looks realistic to me also. Good excuse again!"

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:40 am

Oooh! Gotchya. It's a word I've never came across before.
I'll sort the buffers out.

(or, I could excuse it and say they are recient replacements due to the effects of a rather aggressive shunter, hehehehe :twisted: )

Quick fix to do.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby billbedford » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:36 am

Flymo748 wrote:It's not the same type of brake van, but I found this picture that shows the sort of thing that I mean:

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brlmsbrakevan/h3bb8032a#h3bb8032a


But note there is no sign of a roof 'texture' on any of these photos.

The whole business of putting tissue on coach/van roofs is another modeller's myth perpetuated by people who have never looked closely at photos.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:51 am

billbedford wrote:
Flymo748 wrote:It's not the same type of brake van, but I found this picture that shows the sort of thing that I mean:

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brlmsbrakevan/h3bb8032a#h3bb8032a


But note there is no sign of a roof 'texture' on any of these photos.

The whole business of putting tissue on coach/van roofs is another modeller's myth perpetuated by people who have never looked closely at photos.


Ah, but this is part of the "scale colour/texture" discussion that crops up in other areas such as brickwork.

There is modelling, and then there is the sub-concious suggestion of things that the minds knows are there but in a different way :-)

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:18 am

I don't see any photo there that shows any more than the very edge of the roof, not evidence either way, IMHO.
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Noel
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Noel » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:54 am

"The LMS Wagon", Essery and Morgan, David and Charles 1977 ISBN 0 7153 7357 9, includes painting details from the 1935 painting schedule -

'The exterior of the roof on covered vehicles first had one coat of primer (mix 1 or 4A) applied; it was then stopped up with putty and one coat of jointing paste applied. The canvas was next stretched on and bedded down. One coat of a mixture consisting of equal parts of boiled linseed oil and jointing paste was then applied, followed by three coats of roof paint (mix 6).' Details of the constituents of the various mixes are also given. The roof paint (mix 6) includes white paint paste, linseed oil, mixing varnish, white spirit, black in oil, and aluminium powder.

I don't know what jointing paste is, but it sounds quite substantial, so how much of the texture of the canvas would show through the mixture? As the point of the exercise was to make the roof waterproof, presumably the 'weave' of the canvas would be quite fine anyway?

[Added 13:10]

"An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons" Vol 4, Bixley, Blackburn, Chorley and King, OPC 2002 ISBN 0 86093 564 7, has a number of photographs of SR vans, where, because of the shape, part of the roof covering is visible. They do not give a specification for the covering, but it was presumably not dissimilar to the LMS one. No canvas texture seems to be visible.

Noel
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:51 pm

What an interesting debate. I'd like to offer something.

Image

Please zoom in on the roof. A bit of weav effect can be seen and the creases are also apparent. Seems I did a neater tissue bodge than the real thing.

EDIT: Also...

Image

I'm not knowledgable to debate whether modelling the canvas effect is correct or not, but I do believe those two pictures give it credance.

Brake vans for sidings I guess. :thumb
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby billbedford » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:20 am

It's easy enough to tell if there should be a texture on a roof and that is to find a piece of canvas, i.e. a tent or marquee etc. and just observe how close you have to be before you can actually see the weave. You will get a lot of cues that tell your brain that this is a textile, but you won't be able to see the weave unless you are very close to the canvas. Certainly you are going to be closer than the normal scale viewing distance for 4mm models.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:35 am

In 4mm I think your probably right but this model is a random 7mm example! Gives more wiggle room for interpretation. Again though I'm not going to say whether it is right or wrong in terma of realism but am open to the possibility of each.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Armchair Modeller » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:40 am

It's your model Knuckles - If you and many others are happy with it then that's great :thumb

Sometimes it may be necessary to exaggerate things anyway, to create the kind of atmosphere you want. I have even read that chimneys and domes on locos sometimes don't look realistic if you model them exactly to scale - sometimes you have to exaggerate the curves just for people to appreciate them better.

There are some "extreme" modellers out there who take great care to exaggerate neglect and disrepair - some American narrow gauge models I have seen look superbly atmospheric, though they are not to everyone's taste - more a caricature than an accurate model.

I suspect that my "train set" may exhibit tendencies in that direction - but even I won't know for sure until it happens. We shall see!

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Will L » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:33 pm

billbedford wrote:It's easy enough to tell if there should be a texture on a roof and that is to find a piece of canvas, i.e. a tent or marquee etc. and just observe how close you have to be before you can actually see the weave. You will get a lot of cues that tell your brain that this is a textile, but you won't be able to see the weave unless you are very close to the canvas. Certainly you are going to be closer than the normal scale viewing distance for 4mm models.


But then modelling the texture of a canvas covered roof with a layer of tissue wont produce a visible weave either, as it hasn't got one. The question is does it produce a textured look that is an improvement on a smooth paint layer on very smooth plastic roof.

Will

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:43 pm

Trying to be objective and open I would say both extreems have valid points, and like Flymo said you can attempt to model something you know is there or just give an impression by painting or other methods. In 4mm I use some abraisive paper to give slight effect (by scratching the surface). Having now tried the tissue method I personally like it, when comparing to the two photographs I posted of real vans I think it's clear the roof isn't smooth, but rather abit knobbily with undulations and creases. Clearely not a perfectly smooth roof, plus the edges sometimes have a turn back flap.

I don't think tissue would work so well in 4mm though, it might be overkill.

Maybe we should set up a poll!? Tissue or not tissue.
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