Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue May 15, 2012 2:55 pm

Also, Russ' picture has reminded me, somewhere near the beginning it was mentioned that you should file off the pip on the end of the bearings, the picture shows the result of this, leaving the pip on means you have to carve out more material from the back of the axlebox casting with a bigger risk of breaking through.
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Keith

Knuckles
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:45 am

I'll try that on my next wagon.


I've painted some of the wagons now. The following needs Matt varnish and a little toning down of the white lettering, but it's pretty much complete. The livery is made up but sensible, I've seen examples of the same scheme and some RWS illustrations have it so I hope it's believable. Lettering is 4mm high and the NWR stands for North Western Railway. On the other wagon I'm going to use 8mm lettering and just have NW to represent the same thing, that wagon has grey strapping instead of black. Both wagons have been lightly weathered after painting, nothing too bad so still fairly new looking I hope.

Image

Image

Convincing?
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Mike Garwood
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Mike Garwood » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:12 pm

Tare weights and wagon/truck number required. I'd also let down the white of the lettering to blend with the rest of the truck. Other than that looks good.

Mike

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:02 pm

Nice wagon Knuckles, here's a couple of appropriate locos to go with it.
Mus-1-NWR.jpg

Mus-4-NWR.jpg




In case you are wondering, in the Delhi Museum.
Regards
Keith

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:07 pm

Ha! That's actually quite mint, and yet my NWR isn't real, but that is. :D

It wouldn't prototypically mesh in terms of design but it's cool to see NWR on a real engine or few. Thanks for posting. :)

I'm going to buy a book on wagons so at some point I'll probably add weight letters and numbers or something.


Tare weights and wagon/truck number required. I'd also let down the white of the lettering to blend with the rest of the truck. Other than that looks good.

Mike


A few people have mentioned the numbers so I'll be looking into that. i don't know enough but am thinking of buying a wagon book or 2 soon. As for the white...

The following needs Matt varnish and a little toning down of the white lettering, but it's pretty much complete
:D Yup.

-

Does anyone know much about this wagon? Other than the fact that it is according to the instructions more of a Southern rather than Northern wagon. I really like the unique design of it so will probably do a few more, looks somewhat older and has more character than your bog standard RCH 5 planker.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby craig_whilding » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:20 pm

Knuckles wrote:Does anyone know much about this wagon? Other than the fact that it is according to the instructions more of a Southern rather than Northern wagon. I really like the unique design of it so will probably do a few more, looks somewhat older and has more character than your bog standard RCH 5 planker.

RCH 5 plank wagons aren't actually that common. Most of the 5 plank wagons on the network were the railway companies (especially the 54,000 I believe it is LMS 1666 dia) with the 7/8 plank RCH coal wagon design the common one.

Using Micro Sol/Set is very useful to bed down transfers a bit more before you weather them.

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:20 pm

I've heard it weakens transfers somewhat? Might get some if it will be worth it though.

I thought most wagons were pooled under the RCH label? I don't know much about it but have been looking, thus my ignorance. :|

-

Apart from the lack of tare and other numbers (that after research I want to add) I've dulled the white down and dusted the whole thing a little more. I don't want this wagon looking too decrepid, sort of fairly new but used abit.

Image

Image

improvement?
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Mike Garwood
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Mike Garwood » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:11 pm

Looks good to me...

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:34 pm

I haven't posted for a while, many reasons. Anyway, I thought I'd have a go at converting some New Bachmann vans seeing how every RTR wagon needs a different tactic. Seems that way so far.

A few of mine I have just swapped the wheels and that has been enough for a free running rigid axle conversion, others are harder.

I'm trying to bodge a "12T Ventilated Fruit Van BR Bauxite (LATE)". The detail on this van compared to earlier efforts is to be commended, rather than having a horrable thick lump that goes into the wagon to represent the brake lever, this time we have... a brake lever, just like on a kit, plus the other details are generally very well done. After almost buggering up a set of P4 wagon wheels by trying to force them in for a straight swap, it's apparent I'll need to cut the W irons out and substitute some alternative ones again. Problem is I only have Bill Bedford RCH ones and I think these require something a little different. I'm happy to try rocking ones, that may seem to be 'going backwards' as I jumped straight into springing but I'm willing to give it a go if there arn't any easy springing ones. Any ideas what I need to buy?

Seems Bachmann might have missed a trick here, screw holes sadly arn't in line with the W iron centres, but it would be nice if they were, for it would make at least one method of fixing etched W irons easier. Never mind.
Image

Once the NEM couplings and screws are undone the chassis pulls out easily.
Image

After this is a further plate that needs to be removed.
Image

This is the chassis on top of Bill Bedford RCH sprung W iron frets. They are similar but look different dimentionally. I could bodge them and just use them (I don't think my NWR wagon was supposed to have these but it has now!) but I'd rather do things properly if possible. Ideas? :?
Image
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craig_whilding
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby craig_whilding » Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:42 pm

Buy these ones - BBWF080-4 BR Open Axleguard 4mm


These two are for 20T plus wagons -
BBWF006-4 RCH Heavy Wagon W-Irons 4mm
BBWF081-4 BR Plate Axleguard - 4mm

Philip Hall
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:02 pm

At the risk of heresy, it is perfectly possible to use the Bachmann chassis of the kind that you have just by fitting P4 wheels. All that is needed is clearance for the wheelsets.

At the foot of the moulded W irons you will find the opening which provides clearance for the 00 wheels. This opening does not extend right up to the inside edge of the W iron, so it needs to be cut or filed away so that it does. I use a stiff blade, carefully, and at the same time remove the moulded ribs on the inside of the W iron. I also cut a shallow V shaped groove from the dimple for the axle to the edge of the W iron - this makes it much easier to push the new axles in place.

Some adjustment of the brakes is required if you want them to align with the wheels, and here I run a very fine saw blade under the safety loops and the brake shoe mounting, and also cut away the moulding between these two and the W iron. Doing it will make things clear, as you are trying to provide a gap to bend the brakes outwards towards the W iron. When they're in line, a drop of thick cyano around their bases will hold them. Yes, the brakes now are not in a straight line any more, but you can't tell from a distance, and I did say I was courting heresy.

OK, it might not glide along quite so beautifully as a sprung wagon, but it will have taken you no longer to do than it has taken me to write this, and it does work. Very well. Especially if you add a little weight inside the wagon (I sometimes use a false floor with thin lead underneath) to bring it up to about 50 grams.

Philip

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:45 pm

I don't know if it's heresy, as long as the stock runs well suspension shouldn't be nessasary in all cases, at least that's what I've read, opinions are like A*** holes, everyone's got one! If it ends up running fine then apart from thinner and more scale W irons is it needed? I like springing so far for the extra 'play' and interest value but it seems that it's a good idea anyway for better running. I'm still very much experimenting so a few straight wheel swap conversions i'll be happy with as long as they work. I've found a few swap ok and seem to like my 2 turnouts I made. Rocking W irons I haven't tried so the other wagon might get those.

I might indeed buy those suggested W irons so thankyou for the post. :)

I've cut away those bits and just popped a couple of exactoscale wagon wheels in, they are spoked and not holed disk types but for the time being I'm not too bothered, can change them later. One rotates freely but the other doesn't, kind of bobs about abit and isn't amazing, any ideas on what to do other than turn it into a compensated rocking W iron axle? I'll be doing that to the other wagon probably as part of my method testing.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:17 pm

It' possible that when trying to force a wheelset in you may have caused the sharp axle end to put a bit of swarf in the 'dimple', so have a look there and clean that out. Otherwise it is almost certainly a case of the wheel, as it revolves, touching a brake shoe or somewhere else it needs a touch more clearance. I usually have to put a strong light in there and have a look under a glass. The tiniest bit of extra clearance can often make all the difference.

Philip
Last edited by Philip Hall on Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:35 am

I did have a crack at adding bearings and that worked on the dodgy axle until I tried to remove them, due to it's tightnes they pinged out! I tried glueing them back in but now that the plastic had been softened it didn't take well, so then I had a bout of melting it in with the soldering iron - this worked quite well but then I encountered other issues so I ended up removing them again, cleaning the insides out and drilling the center slightly and just popping the wheels back in the plastic holes. Seems to run much better now, strange. Maybe there was some plastic bits bobbing about like you said.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:11 pm

Haven't posted for a while now, plus your all probably bored of seeing the same thing, so here is more of the same thing. You love me don't you?....don't you.....

.............

Err, o..k , then.

-

NW + North Western Railway. Made up as you know but in a way I hope is believable.

These two new ones are now finished apart from a bit of weathering needed on those wheel edges, and some small tare weight lettering and stuff. I need to research what to add and where to get from but that can be done later.

The small one is looking somewhat battered, the bigger one is only a little bit dirty - almost new. The two pictures just show each side of them both.

Image
Image

I wasn't sure on the NW spacing and positioning so at the momend in these early stages things are abit wibbly and jibbly. If there is any official info on where they should be then I'd like to know because at the minute I'm making things up as I go along here. If you have any info on the above queery's then please suggest.

I'm generally very happy with how they have turned out anyway. To me they look real and believable but these pics make them slightly more yellow than they really are.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:50 pm

If there is any official info on where they should be then I'd like to know because at the minute I'm making things up as I go along here.
If you model "free lance" as it used to be known and hence have a fictitious railway with a fictitious livery you have to make your own official info. Start by preparing some official NWR headed paper, then write an official letter from the Chief Engineer to the Paint Shop Foreman detailing what he should do.
Best regards
Keith

PS. Looks pretty believable as you have it, just need numbers and load ratings added.

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:02 pm

Thanks Keith.

I'm just striving for a realistic fiction - nothing too out the way.

Thanks for the compliment. :)

I do need to add the small lettering but more research on my part is needed 1st. Namely, exactly what is needed for each wagon type and where to get transfers from.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Steve Taylor » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:14 pm

Knuckles, we're all in our own way building model railway fictions, so as long as its believable and conforms to the rules of credible operation (ie can you provide a valid justification (the real world is/was a strange place) and geography/geology and strangely economic motivation (sad reason given the current world news but historically valid) then you get my vote for straying off the beaten path and going for a more real fiction.

Steve

Ps. Nuneaton..... Treacle-Town a strange and frightening place down the road from the monumentally boring spam that is Hinckley.

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pheald
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby pheald » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:19 am

[quote="Russ Elliott"]Knuckles: On some wagons though, like a Conflat, it won't be possible to achieve 50g, and with a cast whitemetal van, it won't be possible to get below about 70g or 80g.

The weight of white metal depends on the alloy type. If it is a lead free type the weight can be surprisingly small. For a low sided goods wagon well less than 70grams. Hence why white metal still has a place for open wagons.

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby doktorstamp » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:31 pm

Knuckles wrote:

I do need to add the small lettering but more research on my part is needed 1st. Namely, exactly what is needed for each wagon type and where to get transfers from.


Transfers can be obtained from

HMRS

Fox

and Parkside Dundas ave a range as well.

All have websites, and certainly there are others that I have overlooked.

regards

Nigel

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:29 pm

Thanks about HMRS and Fox, I'll have a search. It's knowing what exactly I'd need to go with each wagon type that is confusing me the most, different ratings and letter/number meanings. Tare weights and possibly some others. I'm looking to buy a book on rolling stock soon so should provide me with laods of answers - I hope. :D


Ps. Nuneaton..... Treacle-Town a strange and frightening place down the road from the monumentally boring spam that is Hinckley


Strangely, I've heard, Nuneaton, Hinkley and Bedworth all called Treacle Town. Trouble is knowing which is the truest one. I do speak a bit unclear at times though, not the most eloquent, maybe it is Nuneaton after all! I dunno.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:23 pm

Minus 8 days this post is a year away from my last one on this thread. Went quick. :shock:

Ok, so, I haven't been on recently much as has been established for a bunch of reasons. My modelling progress has ground down to a halt and I've made little progress on my layout. Well, really it's almost none as I have been 'waggoning' more than anything and before I make much progress on the layout I wish to get Dingham couplings fitted to a enough examples to accurately test if I like them. This means I need to establish a few wagons fitted with them to give the electro-magnets enough to play with. Is 4 enough?

Letters and numbers a bit messy as they are a swine to apply. Coal rave removable. (I just bent the legs outward to provide springing, easy!)
Image

Image

As you can see by my above two trucks, they have now both received tare weights and such like, yet probably not without error as my research in the matter seems to show more variance than standard answers, also to my surprise the bigger the truck and the more planks does not give accurate estimation of capacity as you can have smaller examples with a higher rating. Oh well. I've done my best and made up a style that I hope is believable; certainly they look much more complete now. "The 4mm Wagon PART ONE - Opens, Minerals and Hoppers (by) Geoff Kent" has been my main reference and research tool and what a great book it is too.

The following is a little example of how awkward things can get sometimes, but with perseverance a result can be obtained. I brought a second hand flat tanker and wished to convert it, sadly just swapping the wheels on this one gave ropey performance and so I needed some form of springing or compensation. Unlike the Bill Bedford units that I have been using a lot, I thought I'd try out some MJT Compensation Units. Partly for experimental reasons of product and method type, and partly due to me not wanting to hack the W Irons to bits. I've found this to be 'doable' on a kit but with an RTR example where everything is as one, it's a bit more difficult.

So...

Image

I removed a wheel-set, Ultrascale in this case (I have to say, as much as I like their loco' wheels, I don't like the wagons wheels - not going to waste though)
and after some filing and gentle hacking managed to get the pivot base in place, but...

Oh dear! Not going to be simple.
Image

So, I guess it's time for some severity with another classic Knux bodge job. Body / tank off, cut accommodation hole for the unit to drop through, pack edges with plastic card. Very crudely I might add, as it's out of view I made zero attempt to do it nicely.

Ugly.
Image

Superglue blooming is obvious. I took little care with the packing. As I hope you can see this was done to provide a base for a false floor within the tank. It was estimated and 'dummy ran' until the desired height was achieved. Due to the weight now being in the way I had to push glue it inside the tank further up. This also gave opportunity to trap some extra lead weight in there too behind the weight as you may be able to see. True, the centre of gravity is a bit higher, but not enough to cause issues.

Image

Flipped over.
Image

And err, done. Result! What a faff that was, it runs better now, just not as smooth and free flowing as springs, but it seems to do it's job so I'm happy.
Image

-

Topside with Dingham couplings installed. On this wagon I had to deform the couplings slightly to change heights but they still work. Probably my error.
Image

Next to another wagon kit that I built up. As yet this is the first time you have seen it, no tare weights yet though.
Image

Next to another wagon I built. This is another ficticious livery. In my reference books there was a Sudrian pre 1915 NWR railway called the Wellsworth & Suddery, so I've had a stab at a 'might be'.
Image

Next to an old 1978 Airfix brake van I brought from the model railway club for £2, (can't whinge) even better is the fact that when I popped some P4 wheels in, it decided to run beautifully and still does. Rare indeed! Clearly I need to paint the (I think) sole bars grey and the detail is dated to say the least...and the brake shoes are in line with the W Irons, but again, £2 for a sweet easy conversion. I can live with that. It offers scope for future fiddling's if I fancy also.
Image

P4 wagon line-up thus far. The far left 3 are Dingham fitted, plus the brake van on the right. The rest are 3 links, most of which couple up to the Dingham's - yet a few have an attitude problem and will not co-operate. Never mind.
Image

This pic I just think looks nice. I'm quite happy with my weathering and painting. The coal rave extensions on one wagon are removable.
Image

Sorry if the picture quantity is undesirable. It has been a long time since I posted anything that may be interesting though.

What you think? :)
Last edited by Knuckles on Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Will L
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Will L » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:44 pm

Hi, nice to hear from you and nothing wrong with a bit of wagon building, which is how many of use leaned what ever skills we may have.

Quick point

Knuckles wrote:....also to my surprise the bigger the truck and the more planks does not give accurate estimation of capacity as you can have smaller examples with a higher rating. Oh well. I've done my best and made up a style that I hope is believable; certainly they look much more complete now. "The 4mm Wagon PART ONE - Opens, Minerals and Hoppers (by) Geoff Kent" has been my main reference and research tool and what a great book it is too.


The wagons load carrying rating in tons relates to what weight the under fame/springs are designed to cope with. Some big things aren't heavy, some small thing are. For instance, coal is much heavier than coke and coal wagons used for coke traffic often had raves fitted so the wagon could hold the weight of coke the under frame was designed to carry.

Will

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Armchair Modeller » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:06 pm

Glad to see you're back! How did we survive without you ;)

Owt's better than nowt - and this looks like a good start.

Looking forward to many more interesting thoughts and projects........guess I'd better get on with some of mine then ;)

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:10 pm

Thanks you two. :)

Will; that helps a lot, many thanks. I was having trouble grasping why things seemed non standard.

I've edited the above so you should see another picture, because I ended one with [/quote] instead of [/img] - force of habit! ALso I changed the worg 'wagon' to brake van' at one point, but that's it.

To those in the know - would you say 4 wagons is enough for properly test Dingham's with the magnet instillation? I could add couplings to a loco if need be too.
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