Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

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Flymo748
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:45 am

Knuckles wrote:Working Leaf Springs For Wagons.Finally, REAL leaf springs to spring the wagons, not other methods pretending to be leaf springs or compensation or whatever.

It was mentioned by Bill, but it was nagging at the back of my mind that I had seen a write-up of this somewhere recently.

It was in MRJ 224, where Geoff Haynes builds the Hobby Holidays underframe kit in 7mm. The springs for this are etched in phosphor bronze. The article starts: "I have always been fascinated by how things work, and a good way to find out is to make something that replicates how the real item works."

Sounds very much like Knuckles :-)

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Will L
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Will L » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:34 am

Knuckles wrote:Thanks Will. I'm inclined to agree with you mostly.

... I wouldn't say the springs are too stiff though. They flex just as easy as the guitar string, the main working leaf being the longest one at the top doing most the work, the smaller ones working a little bit but stiffer. Changing lengths and methods Ganges the spring rate but what I need to do is build them consistently.

Beware, it is notoriously difficult to maesure just how stiff a spring actually is with significant difference being hard to detect without specialist equipment. The mark 1 pointy finger is no guide I'm afraid. I pursuing this sort of things for my own amusement I purchased a small set of digital scales (accurate to 0.1 gm), only to have my children point out that this could be consider by the boys in blue as drugs paraphernalia.

I think this is one of those almost pointless things we do just for kicks.

Officer I would like to make it quite clear that when referring to getting my kicks....

Will

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Flymo748
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:53 am

Will L wrote:Beware, it is notoriously difficult to maesure just how stiff a spring actually is with significant difference being hard to detect without specialist equipment. The mark 1 pointy finger is no guide I'm afraid. I pursuing this sort of things for my own amusement I purchased a small set of digital scales (accurate to 0.1 gm), only to have my children point out that this could be consider by the boys in blue as drugs paraphernalia.

Or a fan of Heston Blumenthal...

For Christmas I received a set of these, and a load of edible chemicals that if put in small plastic bags would definitely look of interest to the Drugs Squad...

The food tastes absolutely amazing though :-)

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Knuckles
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:24 am

Laaaaaatte replies, but here eventually.

The Book: Curiously, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias, as it fell, was, "Oh no, not again!" Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly *why* the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now. "

See also "reinventing the wheel", "deva vu", etc


Cool, now I get it. Oky doky. I really enjoyed that film btw, absolutely trippy.

I'm impressed that you have done this in 4mm, although has been said it's been done a few times in the larger scales.


Thanks. I'm glad it has been done before now, as I can read up on their experience...once I get the articles.

I'm amazed that all four wheels of this wagon are on the rails, since a/ multi-leaf springs are inherently much stiffer than a single wire and b/ the camber, i.e. the amount of curvature, of the leaves on all four springs have to match.


I'm amazed too, I also tested it with the weight inside and gently buffered it over a rather naff bit of track and all 4 wheels were still on, so that's promising. Roll tests are as I previously reported pretty good, but not without improvement.
The biggest, longest and top spring does most of the work but they all flex. Having everything match is as you say important, and currently being a rough knock up they don't, yet they still seem to work ok and roll nicely over the crappy bits which as a rough and ready first attempt has given me the incentive to know they will be worth a second shot sometime. I'm thinking of getting some etches made for consistancy, as was suggested.

What programs would you say are good for designing metal etching sheets? I don't know how to use them anyway but it's an area I'll have to dig into.

The article starts: "I have always been fascinated by how things work, and a good way to find out is to make something that replicates how the real item works."

Sounds very much like Knuckles


Yeah I guess so. :)

Beware, it is notoriously difficult to maesure just how stiff a spring actually is with significant difference being hard to detect without specialist equipment.


This is true, but I don't intend to be that exacting to know all the mathematics behind it. It isn't my style, and in truth my intelligence isn't geared in that direction. [A softer way of saying my mathematical thinking is thicker than a P4 test plank]

The mark 1 pointy finger is no guide I'm afraid


Hmm, I'd debate that. It's never failed me yet. It won't be as accurate as using equipment but with my usual 'arse about until it works/looks right' method I'll get there. I've been using Bill's units for a while and they serve as a good comparison to help guide me.



[[[ - I've cut the section on flavourings due to me derailing my own thread, just felt the need to whinge. Whinge done, I've got it saved in a text file should it need to be shown later, doubt anyone is bothered though! - ]]]
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Ade
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Ade » Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:43 pm

I appreciate that a long time has passed since the last update on this thread, but i just wanted to echo what others have said and thank Knuckles for an entertaining and informative read.

Knuckles, I thoroughly enjoy reading your P4 adventures and appreciate your gung-ho-have-a-go approach to modelling. Very refreshing! And kudos to you too for smoothly riding over the criticism you received along the way.

Looking forward to the next instalment!
Ade

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:44 pm

Thanks Ade, I appreciate what you said and I myself apologise for the long wait for reply.

This past year or so I've not done much modelling at all. I sort of change gears. Like you said, all gung ho then I realise I depleted all my rounds. Reloading takes a while.

I am looking forward to some more wagon building though; it's an area of the hobby I thoroughly enjoy. At the moment I'm mainly doing the buildings for the mini layout.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sun Nov 30, 2014 6:16 pm

BOO!!! :shock: :o


I haven't done much modelling for AGEEEES. I haven't been in the mood much and have had other things on the go that take priority, I have been doing a little bit of kitbashing and scratch building some loading dock but other than that not much.

I went Warley the other day on the Sunday and brought a few bits, the focus of this write up is the instillation of a compensating rocker unit into a Bachmann tank wagon that was a bit of a pig, and the improvement of a rather (in my eyes) crude 0 gauge wagon I picked up for a wee £15. Bargain.

So, P4 item first...

Image
The pictures and text should be pretty clear what I did.

Image

And now the 0 gauge item that only cost £15. I'm not an 0 gauge modeller but I've always wanted a go so every now and then I'm dipping into it too. It is possible for me to squeeze two model railways into my loft if I want, not massive ones but one can go above the other if I decide to do 0 gauge as well. I'm interested also in Scale7 but my opinion of the official website is best not expounded upon, suffice to say there is pretty much no useful information on there and I don't know where to look for relevant info, mainly, how to get wheels other than self laith work and what benefits does a member have?
People needn't worry about me 'defecting' or anything. I'm sticking to P4 but may also do 0 or S7 one day, no harm in modelling more than one scale right?

Ok so here it is, the 0 gauge model from Skytrex.

Image

Is it a kit or an RTR example? I don't know, what I do know is it leaves much to be desired.
Those brackets inside the body are horrid but I'm leaving them be as the removable coal load is my answer to that. The wheel flanges are over the top large AND uneven to almost a full millimetre in places. What the hell is going on? This is beyond poor. I mini drilled the flanges but a full blown replacement may be the best option.

The mouldings in most places are ok but a little thick and chunky, I sanded down the wood grain in areas too.

Ok, what I detest is the brake gear, I'm no expert on brake gear and in P4 I have a nightmare trying to find out what to replace things with, but even 00 RTR examples are more accurate than this.

1) What the heck is with the horrid LUMP that is supposed to be 2 separate 'V' hangers?

2) Is that supposed to be a brake lever in it's locking housing? (My term as I don't know the proper name) It's way too thin and is moulded inside it. Not convincing even from a distance. Baaaaad!

What to do about it...
Image

I painted it and weathered it severely but even then the brake gear looks horrible. So...

Image

V hangers we neatened up. This may be somewhat extreme but there you go, to me this is nothing short of idleness in design, not that I'm a design expert because I am not but some 00 gauge models are better in accuracy than this.

Now on to the other abomination, what can we do about it?

Image

Finito! It may be a bit inaccurate and chunky as is just my bodging, BUT! it's more accurate than it was. (In my opinion) I also on this side painted replacement planks into the model. I just like the look to be honest.

Image


Ok, hope you enjoyed this instalment of mine for what has been a long time and and I hope it helps. I'm sure the bodge can be done in any scale.

Good day to you all. :)
Comments welcome, good or bad. :thumb
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:40 pm

First entry in over a year.

I brought a Dapol wagon the other day because it had Camp Hill on it which is about a mile away from where I currently live and I used to live there. Just appeals.

Anyway, as RTR wagons go it lacks fidelity but is cheap and in my case made a Peasy Easy conversion. It ran well considering it has no compo or springo.

For my wagon conversions, if they run without a faff then that is good enough. I do like springing and if building wagon kits I go straight for it if I can but if an RTR one is happy as a fixed axle it stays.

So far I have found some are ok with simply popping in P4 wheels and some are not. Always a lottery it seems.


The video explains a few things, and shows it bombing about on my mini test layout happy. No extra weight either. :thumb


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw_zxXbF_2c
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:46 pm

Thought I'd get a Bachmann wagon out today and give it the ol' P4 treatment. It is the 1st P4 wagon conversion/build to beat me so I do not mind too much.

I've had to cut right through the base on many occasion but this one was particularly angry with me, you can see the previous cut outs on the above posts with the fertilizer wagon.

After clipping and filing away this one was too weak and snapped. Oh well, will use it on my layout as part of the scrap scenery.

You can see my salvaged axle boxes in the BG.
Do RTR firms try to make it difficult on purpose?
20160608_151758.jpg


Filing away for one of Mr Bedford's units made it all go pear shaped.
20160608_153405.jpg


Posted for the fun of it.

Also does anyone recognise what type of wagon it is and could suggest a specific underframe kit? I'll do it that way as I'm still yet to do a full etched wagon chassis.
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Noel
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Noel » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:21 pm

It's a 10ft wb LNER VB fitted van to Diagram 102 [H 12ft 3in, W 8ft 2in] or 116 [H 12ft 0.625in, W 8ft 0in], I don't know which without seeing the number; in 4mm there isn't much difference.

I have three Bachmann vans; I discard the chassis, and replace it using solebars from a Parkside chassis [their chassis are available separately], home made buffer beams, plus cast brakegear, etc. Sprung buffers and etched brakegear are available. Springing/compensation can be applied to taste; I'm one of those who doesn't bother for short wheelbases. I don't know if there is an appropriate etched chassis available; no doubt someone will be able to tell you.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:22 pm

Ok thanks Noel, that's very helpful thanks. :)

Will likely first look for getting just the underframe kit but we'll see.

If converting I usually just swap the wheels to P4 first, if they don't roll on a finger test I cut the strengthening cusps or whatever they are called on the moulded W-Irons or file back and if they still won't roll then it is compo or springing. If they do roll then it is the mini layout test and if they don't fall off after going through everything a few times it is job done, if not then it is the compo or springing again. I do the least I can get away with but if building a kit I most often just go straight for full springing.
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PeteT
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby PeteT » Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:36 pm

I think the underframe for these are done as an etched kit by Dave Bradwell. If not it'll be in the Rumney models catalogue.

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:40 pm

Thanks PeteT.

Will look to get a new chassis. Got no choice now I totalled it. Will run sweet anyway. Springing for the win.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Noel » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:05 am

PeteT wrote:I think the underframe for these are done as an etched kit by Dave Bradwell. If not it'll be in the Rumney models catalogue.


It's in Justin's, with BR axleguards, and he refers to DB having an RCH axleguard version.
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Noel

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:28 pm

[quote="Noel"]It's a 10ft wb LNER VB fitted van to Diagram 102 [H 12ft 3in, W 8ft 2in] or 116 [H 12ft 0.625in, W 8ft 0in], I don't know which without seeing the number; in 4mm there isn't much difference.[quote]



Any idea which one fits the above description? :-?

http://www.rumneymodels.co.uk/12.html

I checked through the different chassis types but knowing which wagon underframes to buy when upgrading from plastic has always been a hurdle I struggle to jump.
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Noel
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Noel » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:55 pm

Knuckles wrote:
Noel wrote:It's a 10ft wb LNER VB fitted van to Diagram 102 [H 12ft 3in, W 8ft 2in] or 116 [H 12ft 0.625in, W 8ft 0in], I don't know which without seeing the number; in 4mm there isn't much difference.


As built both types would have had RCH axleguards, being built in the 1930s and 1940s, i.e. pre-BR, so the Dave Bradwell version would be correct. However, funny things sometimes happened at wagon repairers, so it's not really possible to say with certainty that one never turned up with BR axleguards from around the late 1950s onwards. There are photos in P Tatlow "LNER Wagons" vol 4A, from 1962 & 1968, of two 1940 Diagram 161 fitted vans with BR axleguards, although they would have been built with the RCH type. Axleboxes also were changed sometimes; a lot depends on what period you intend to represent, assuming that this matters to you (no critical implication intended if it doesn't).
Regards
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:53 pm

Ok, still hard to pin point then. It is all the different types of brakes that confuse me when ordering parts. Will look into it more.

On this mini layout I'm doing the usual loose steam death period but the other main layout/s I have in mind are mostly pre-Grouping. Although like many I like to run several different periods and a whim so try to make allowances.

I usually mark out wagons underneath with the original company, the dates they were built and the dates used until so I can easily and hopefully switch with some degree of accuracy.

I do them thus:

20160609_174652.jpg


Even though this one I painted up in fictional (but documented) NWR livery the wagon type itself can still make sense in certain contexts to avoid anachronisms. That's the aim anyway.
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Guy Rixon
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:42 am

I think this is the correct kind of underframe for the LNER van: https://www.eileensemporium.com/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=product&task=show&cid=2693&name=lner-10-wagon-underframe-steel-4mm&Itemid=443&category_pathway=4041. That's assuming that the van had a steel frame; Bill also does a version for wooden solebars

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Noel
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Noel » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:51 am

Guy Rixon wrote: That's assuming that the van had a steel frame; Bill also does a version for wooden solebars

The van Knuckles was asking about is a steel underframe version. LNER wooden underframe vans all had wooden ends [the converse is not true, however].

Knuckles wrote:I usually mark out wagons underneath with the original company, the dates they were built and the dates used until so I can easily and hopefully switch with some degree of accuracy.


Just for information, the GNR became part of the LNER 1/1/23 as a result of the grouping. The last GNR design dated from 1921, and continued to be built by the LNER, but had a sacktruck door [with the bottom plank angled outwards] whereas your photo seems to show a flat door [it's difficult to be sure]? If so, it was a different design, which therefore is of a type not built after 1921. Some of these ex-GNR wagons could have survived as late as the early 1950s, but most would have been scrapped in the 1940s. Not many wooden underframe vehicles of any sort survived into the 1960s. Also, I'm afraid that the brake gear as built will not work, but you are far from alone in doing this...
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Noel

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:26 am

Knuckles wrote:I usually mark out wagons underneath with the original company, the dates they were built and the dates used until so I can easily and hopefully switch with some degree of accuracy.

Even though this one I painted up in fictional (but documented) NWR livery the wagon type itself can still make sense in certain contexts to avoid anachronisms. That's the aim anyway.


I have had a couple of attempts at doing something similar. I really must stop losing the spreadsheets that I note the details down in though.

I settle for just putting a number underneath the wagon, then record the details separately. Having the wagons numbered 1, 2, 3 etc also comes in very useful in making sure that they go back into the correct hole in the stock boxes...

Cheers
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