Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Knuckles
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:58 pm

There's no doubting the crispness of the Coopercraft moulds, but it's a mistake to confuse that with authenticity.


I can't seem to find a prototypical photograph or drawing online to save my life, been looking. How wrong is it? :?

That pic and explanation helps too. I might do that then, I have some 1907's still and so far it's what I've been using mostly, but I can't help thinking the 1923 design will look closer to the one in the kit, but as Russ said the kit might not be accurate. I have no way of knowing for sure what the accurate conclusion is currently.

I've took a picture anyway, maybe this could help solve things. From the bottom of the solebar to the bottom of the W-iron it's roughly 8.5 - 9mm's. I'd lean on it being less due to plastic puffiness at the bottom. The middle uprights are thin like on the 1923, but the bottom area drops straight a lot and so these two differencies look a lot different from the 1907 design. I'm not doubting your advice that it may be the best unit to use however.

Image

Also any idea what axlebox and spring type these are? If I make a pigs ear of the plastic W-iron cutting and mould thinning (as I do 30% of the time) It'd be good to have replacements.



EDIT: Additional; on one of my other wagons, a fully sprung one I have had a problem with ride height. For some reason one end would be lower than the other and I couldn't figure out why, the spring seemed slacker but it wasn't banana shaped so maybe I made a fudge of things somewhere else in the build. So I took the spring out and put the next gauge wire in. Guitar string #2, 0.13 as apposed to the usual .010. This being stiffer has had the effect of pushing the wheels down a tad thus curing the problem and equalising the height of the two ends. Problem solved.

I've test ran it and so far and having one end sprung stiffer than the other has had no adverse effects on running and it still rolls nicely without rearranging ballast. I do wonder however if this is a bad idea in a longer train because it means the wagon is not properly balanced, or at least that's the idea in my head. Seems to be working though.

I have had another problem on a different fully sprung wagon where the ride height was too high instead. To solve this I took the springs out and 'bananna'd' them slightly. I know this reduces the effectiveness of the springing but not that much in my case. Still rides sweetly.
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Noel
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Noel » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:50 pm

The round top identifies it as an "OK" type oil axlebox, as used by the GWR [I don't know if any other company used them]. I'm not sure what you mean by the spring type, but it appears to be intended to represent a four-leaf spring, implying a wagon rated for 10tons load. These boxes were used for new construction from circa 1905 to circa 1925-30, after which they were gradually replaced by RCH designs for new construction, although wagons already so fitted would have kept them of course. Repairs could result in a mixture of axlebox types on the same wagon, or a completely different set to the originals. Wagon repairers were not very fussy about such matters, so long as everything was the right size, although I would expect each axle to have two identical boxes.

http://ukrailways1970tilltoday.me.uk/wagons_gwr_open_wagon_92943_didcot.htm

which has 5 leaf springs as its rated for 12/13tons.

http://www.transportdiversions.com/images/books/TE5557S.jpg

where the top wagon appears to have two different types of w-iron...

Noel
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Knuckles
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:41 am

Thanks Noel, that helps a bucket load. :) Appreciated. I guess that means I could always bodge an excuse and use other axle box designs if I make a mistake, but at the same time if it's done too often it'll just be too much of a cop out. WIll look out for the others.

I always find it difficult knowing what design names components have, because if you don't know you just don't know, and then when you start searching for them you haven't got much to go by other than pictures, so you don't know what to search for and....wheeooo. :? Ignorance isn't bliss.

----

To anyone interested in my latest write up with pics, please have a look here....
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2934&p=26461#p26461

I didn't know where to put it as evident by above post in the link, but whatever. Please have a look. :D
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Noel
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Noel » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:08 pm

As a BR era modeller, I have it a bit easier. A GWR wagon with BR w-irons [aka axleguards], LNER axleboxes all round and a pair of buffers at one end which don't match the pair at the other end is not impossible. In pre-grouping times a company owned wagon would often have equipment unique to the owning company [e.g. GWR Dean-Churchward brake], so a repairer would have to obtain the necessary parts from the owner. Possibly the most likely to have mixed axleboxes would have been grease box equipped coal wagons [of which there were an awful lot].

Noel
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Russ Elliott
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Russ Elliott » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:16 pm

billbedford wrote:
Russ Elliott wrote:I haven't been able to put 020 and 031 on the CLAG site because Eileen's doesn't show those etches.

Put them up on the Clag site.

As previously stated, I haven't got those to put up. If you could send me a suitable jpg, that might do the job.

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Russ Elliott » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:22 pm

Knuckles wrote:I can't seem to find a prototypical photograph or drawing online to save my life, been looking. How wrong is it? :?

The main problem with the Coopercraft undersolebar is the brakes.

The Coopercraft axlebox is a good GWR OK 'F' type, suitable for light opens and vans. MJT 2242 is a better shape for the larger OK box, and it's got a better (5-leaf) spring on it.

The Coopercraft W-iron profile looks like a pre-1884 shape, and therefore generally unsuitable for the Coopercraft wagons. After 1880-ish, the GWR W-iron shape was generally as Bill's 001 ('RCH 1907'). I can't find anything GWR that used Bill's 1923 RCH shape.

Bill's 002 overall side depth is greater than 001, but the 002 carrier depth is marginally less than the 001.

Bill's 1907 RCH was originally available as 20mm span product, and is I guess what 90% of the market is looking for, but it seems the artwork was subsequently changed to the short span.

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:41 am

Many thanks for the replies. The Mink will have to wait a while until I can digest everything and do the best, but I'll be refering here when that time comes. For the time being, since arriving back from Scaleforum I decided to try something with another wagon kit that's been milling around in my head for a while and so, Sunday night, last night, and probably the next few nights I've been enjoying myself not a little.

I'm not going to reveal what just yet because I want the finished result to be a supprise. I just hope ye find it as interesting and exciting as I am. (Edit: Ok, 'exciting' may be a little OTT)

Unsure if I'm the first to try it but I haven't seen anyone else show example yet, on here, in books or otherwise. Trials last night wern't bad at all, it just needs the usual fine tuning. If I make a full success I'm unsure how popular it would be due to the awkwardness of it all. Well, I'll be mysterious until it is done. :D

Expect the presentation to arrive within a week or two.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:21 pm

Ok, expect the post to arrive within the hour, just uploading photo's :thumb
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:40 pm

Working Leaf Springs For Wagons.

I'll just like to say, I'm unsure if I'm the first to do this. Probably not yet maybe, I've yet to see a post on the subject until now so I hope so, but whatever, I'm rather happy I've managed to bring this idea into fruition.

The idea has been cooking up in my head for a good while now.

Firstly a disclaimer: Although unintentional, this post may erk Bill somewhat as the basis for this experiment is two of his spring units, and no doubt it's probably safe to say I've in this case definitely made the whole process rather complex, but never mind. ;)

I'll be using this wagon to add etched brake gear onto later. If I am to do this whole process again I need to find a consistent way of cutting the phosper bronze strip and also consistency as a whole. The spring rate is adjusted by spring length and bend amount and how free they are to move. Fixing them obviously stiffens them a little, but not that much. So far it's trial and error but I have managed to get a fair degree of difference between the different design slants and faffing about. Really pleased with how this has all turned out, now that I've got it to work. Finally, REAL leaf springs to spring the wagons, not other methods pretending to be leaf springs or compensation or whatever.

Yes it's a ball ache and a faff about.

Using MJT RCH castings and a wagon kit that requires this axlebox design, I set to work on my prototype.

Image

Image

Image

Visual collection.
Image

Image

Image

Image

:D :D :D

Please comment, whether for good or bad.
Last edited by Knuckles on Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Armchair Modeller » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:09 pm

Congratulations on getting a result from your experimentation. I can well imagine your sense of satisfaction. :thumb

I'll order 1000, please :? Only joking ;)

Maybe with a little more experimentation you could perfect the idea. Etching and casting would then save a lot of work and time - and reduce the number of broken drill bits.

Life in Nuneaton can rarely have been so exciting. :D

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:23 pm

Nuneaton exciting? Ummm. I guess I've found a way now. 8-) If you find about 8 or 10 hours of work piddling about with farty bits of metal that is!

Actually I have been thinking of refining it and offering it as a kit at some point as a possible idea. Problem is I'd have to really refine things to a T and also make my own etches.

Then again, maybe not. A bag of ready prepared bits minus W-Irons and Bob's your auntie, then again #2, you could just make them. Unsure if you can etch phosphor bronze, and also there is the thought that maybe a different material would be more suitable. A mini guillotine and pillar drill might be my answer for consistency. Lost wax brass axleboxes might be better for this application too. Doubt they exist.

I doubt there's much demand for such a thing, especially requiring so much bumming about to cobble up, I just wanted to see if it could be done, so that when the wagon hits a rough area the springs themselves actually do the springing and you see them flex a wee bit. I doubt I'd do many more but further refinement on another wagon is in the pipe line. Maybe I could fix the axlexox in position, but oblong the bearing holes then solder the spring rod to the bearing. This would be more realistic, hmm....

Thanks for the comment. :)
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Will L
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Will L » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:53 pm

Well done for getting a working result, What you're proving is that the willingness to have a go is they way to learn and improve.

The general consensus in the past is that scale leaf springs are too stiff, mostly because the physical properties of metals are not the same at scale sizes as they are at full size. e.g. if you tried to pick up a full sized loco by holding on to the edges of the footplate, like you see people picking up models, all that would happen is that the footplate would bend.

The single leaf guitar string style springing has be generally accepted as the nearest available approach to the prototype leaf spring, as the scale model wagon deflects this longer thinner spring by the scale equivalent of the amount a full size wagon deflect the full size leaf spring. All this is approximate of course as the the real wagon more than doubles in weight between full and empty, and there is no agreed way to determining what the scale equivalent weight of a model wagon should be , either full or empty.

Anyway if you've made it work, good for you. In these things it always helps not to know something is supposed to be impossible. Only time will tell if your leaf springs work satisfactory in practice over time in a layout..

I still inclined to the view that if you've got a lot of wagons to do, the Bill Bedford/Masokits/and other manufactures items will prove quicker and easier to do, but if you can come up with something that assembles just as quickly and easily then who knows...


Will

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:52 am

Thanks Will. I'm inclined to agree with you mostly.

I can't see myself doing many more of these as it indeed is not a quick fix. Bill Bedford units for me are the mainstay. I did this more as an experiment to see if it was possible, and for some fun. I wouldn't say the springs are too stiff though. They flex just as easy as the guitar string, the main working leaf being the longest one at the top doing most the work, the smaller ones working a little bit but stiffer. Changing lengths and methods changes the spring rate but what I need to do is build them consistently.

You mentioned durability, and yeah, I guess time will tell! Probably be in a train then fall to bits mid run - that'd be rather interesting to see happen. :D

I might at some point try to solder the spring dropper to the bearing, infact maybe soldering it might not be nessasary as it could be replaced then. I'm talking of fixing the axlebox and making oval holes as usual. Would be more prototypical in operation then rather than the box traveling.

Might try that. :)

Thanks for your comment, Will.

I think this is one of those almost pointless things we do just for kicks.
Last edited by Knuckles on Sat Jan 04, 2014 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:00 am

Would be more prototypical in operation then rather than the box traveling.

Well, no, in fact the lack of movement of the axlebox is the let down of the Bill Bedford method. The real thing has the axlebox moving with the axle. Your version is prototypical as is and congratulations for making it work.
Peco wonderful wagons did it many years ago, but with plastic springs which did not deflect under the weight of the wagon, only if you added a heavy finger.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby billbedford » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:53 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:Well, no, in fact the lack of movement of the axlebox is the let down of the Bill Bedford method. The real thing has the axlebox moving with the axle.


There is nothing to stop anyone having moving axleboxes with my w-irons, just glue the axlebox to a plain pin-point bearing on the outside of the w-iron. The fact that very few people have done this suggests that it is not worth the effort.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby billbedford » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:09 am

Knuckles wrote:[Working Leaf Springs For Wagons.]

I'll just like to say, I'm unsure if I'm the first to do this. Probably not yet maybe, I've yet to see a post on the subject until now so I hope so, but whatever, I'm rather happy I've managed to bring this idea into fruition.


[insert]gag about whales and bowls of pertunias[/insert]

No you are not the first -- there are even etchings available at least in 7mm, and the guy who designed them has some idea of the physics involved.

Please comment, whether for good or bad.


Where can we see the video of them 'working'?
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby jayell » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:15 am

billbedford wrote:There is nothing to stop anyone having moving axleboxes with my w-irons, just glue the axlebox to a plain pin-point bearing on the outside of the w-iron. The fact that very few people have done this suggests that it is not worth the effort.


I expect there are still some people advocating tinplate rolling stock on 3 rail track and I have no doubt many people thought moving from OO to EM or P4 standards 'not worth the effort'. Just as many people think there is no point in developing battery powered, R/C controlled locos when DCC is available.

Our hobby needs people willing to think outside the box if it is to continue to develop.

John

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby jayell » Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:27 am

Knuckles wrote: Lost wax brass axleboxes might be better for this application too.
)


I think separate brass axleboxes, with grooves that can slide up and down in the w-iron would be an improvement. To get effective working springs you may need to have some of them dummy with just the top one actually doing the suspension (the scale effect thingy).

If people can make working inside valve gear in 4mm scale, there was a beautiful example to be seen at Aylesbury for example ) then I don't see why working wagon springs can't be created for those that want even more realism.

John

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Tonycardall » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:13 pm

Knuckles, I have just spent a thoroughly interesting morning reading your posts. What an inspiration. I have just returned to modelling after a 20 something year break and find that it is as if I had never done anything before. I am impatient to get on but, when you have to start from scratch, building track and wagons etc., it is difficult to know where to start. Your posts have given me the enthusiasm to plough on and learn again as I go. Many thanks. I suppose that I may even have another go at the brass wagon that was going so well until I held the soldering iron on it for a second too long. Now where are all those component parts?

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby billbedford » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:36 pm

johnlewis wrote:I think separate brass axleboxes, with grooves that can slide up and down in the w-iron would be an improvement. To get effective working springs you may need to have some of them dummy with just the top one actually doing the suspension (the scale effect thingy).


Go on then, show us.

I'm sure there is a small fortune to be made with this sort of stuff.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Flymo748 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:46 pm

billbedford wrote:
johnlewis wrote:I think separate brass axleboxes, with grooves that can slide up and down in the w-iron would be an improvement. To get effective working springs you may need to have some of them dummy with just the top one actually doing the suspension (the scale effect thingy).


Go on then, show us.

I'm sure there is a small fortune to be made with this sort of stuff.

As with yachting (and racing motorbikes...) the best way to make a small fortune is to start with a large one...

;-)
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:19 pm

Well, no, in fact.......................................The real thing has the axlebox moving with the axle. Your version is prototypical as is and congratulations for making it work.


Oohh, I thought the axlebox was fixed to the W-Iron and something moved inside like we do with Bill's units. Ok cool. Thankyou. :)

gag about whales and bowls of pertunias

Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy I recognise, but sadly I don't get the message. :(

No you are not the first -- there are even etchings available at least in 7mm, and the guy who designed them has some idea of the physics involved.


Horsetan also pointed me on RMweb to possible the first one to try it also. I've quoted it below for everyones benefit. I don't think he'll mind as he is on here too.

He mentioned it in MRJ no.6, I think, when discussing his methods of sprung suspension. That was back in 1986, and he had many of his engines running on rubber pad blocks. Subsequently he adopted individual single-wire leaf springs for his Peppercorn A1 (MRJ 28 and 29)


EDIT: I don't think Chris Pendlenton carried on with his celluloid experiments on wagons, though. If you read his later articles in MRJ, e.g. the one on mineral leading (MRJ 173, I think) you'll see that he uses the single-wire leaf method.

Weight's important, though, and your individual phos. bronze leaves would probably work better under a whitemetal or etched brass vehicle.


What's the best way to obtain old issues? I'd like to read those ones.

Where can we see the video of them 'working'?


I have thought of making a video and might do. I'd feel better making a video of a second more refined version on another wagon. As is evident by the pictures the prototype attempt is a bit rough and ready to say the least. I'll be doing a second wagon though at some point as I'm determined to get a polished consistant example. Once I'm fully happy I think it's safe to say I'll do a video. My somewhat n00by track will prove a good example. ;)

Our hobby needs people willing to think outside the box if it is to continue to develop.


Indeed, most boxes are self made retarders for the mind. I guess that's why they call it a box. A trap of sorts. (Umbrella: I'm not saying people are retarded for not looking out of a box, don't get the wrong impression!)

To get effective working springs you may need to have some of them dummy with just the top one actually doing the suspension (the scale effect thingy).


Based on nothing more than the experience of this one wagon, I disagree (currently). I did fix some springs together meaning they hardly flexed and so just the top one worked, but this limited the operation considerably. The best springs out of the 4 ends are the ones where they are mostly loose and all free. The top biggest spring does a lot of the work being the first to recieve weight and being the longest thus weakest, but when flex testing it clearely isn't the only one doing the work. Free movement seems to prove a softer flex.

If people can make working inside valve gear in 4mm scale, there was a beautiful example to be seen at Aylesbury for example ) then I don't see why working wagon springs can't be created for those that want even more realism.


I've never tried working inside valve gear and unsure if I'd bother, neither have I had the pleasure of seeing a model in motion that does, but like working wagon brake gear (that Ted Scannel has done and I want to some day), these springs and modelling the inside of a building your never going to see, I guess it's the personal satisfaction you get from things. For me, all this type stuff is also added play value. I sometimes like to pick one of my wagons up and play with the springs and sprung buffers. Why? erm, maybe I'm mad, I dunno. :mrgreen:

Knuckles, I have just spent a thoroughly interesting morning reading your posts. What an inspiration. I have just returned to modelling after a 20 something year break and find that it is as if I had never done anything before. I am impatient to get on but, when you have to start from scratch, building track and wagons etc., it is difficult to know where to start. Your posts have given me the enthusiasm to plough on and learn again as I go. Many thanks. I suppose that I may even have another go at the brass wagon that was going so well until I held the soldering iron on it for a second too long. Now where are all those component parts?


Thanks Tony, that's really great to hear, glad I could help. Thanks for the kind words. This is partly why I continue to do these bloggy posts, I've had loads of messages similar throughout doing these documentation things since about 2006-ish. :thumb

-

Oky doky. Thanks for the replies everyone. I'll continue with this experimentation in due time.
I've replied to a few comments that were not aimed at me but just wanted to discuss things. Out of all the railway modelling forums or areas in a non modelling forum I'm a member of (4) , our S4 one easily tops them all. I'm not on about just this thread but everywhere.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:12 am

Knuckles wrote:
gag about whales and bowls of pertunias

Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy I recognise, but sadly I don't get the message. :(


In the voice of the Book:

" [Cuts to a distant view as the whale hits the ground and spews up a large mushroom cloud of snow]

The Book: Curiously, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias, as it fell, was, "Oh no, not again!" Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly *why* the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now. "

See also "reinventing the wheel", "deva vu", etc :-)

I'm impressed that you have done this in 4mm, although has been said it's been done a few times in the larger scales.

Cheers
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby billbedford » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:01 am

I'm amazed that all four wheels of this wagon are on the rails, since a/ multi-leaf springs are inherently much stiffer than a single wire and b/ the camber, i.e. the amount of curvature, of the leaves on all four springs have to match.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby jayell » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:28 am

billbedford wrote:
johnlewis wrote:I think separate brass axleboxes, with grooves that can slide up and down in the w-iron would be an improvement. To get effective working springs you may need to have some of them dummy with just the top one actually doing the suspension (the scale effect thingy).


Go on then, show us.


I would like to be able to have a go at making brass axleboxes that would slide inside the w-irons but I no longer have the tools or tooling that would enable me to do so. An ancient 1/2" bench drill with a sloppy quill isn't exactly a precision tool :(

John


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