Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Philip Hall
Posts: 1238
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Philip Hall » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:01 pm

Of all the freight stock I have built over the years, most have been compensated, with many rigid. I've never had anything much come off the rails in either case. Now it is true that I haven't been heaving vast rafts of four wheeled stock about the place, but for modest trains it does work. Or at least, it always has, for me. Springing is to be tried one day, but for now I am content to use up stocks of the other things I have.

The reason that the Society 'endorses' compensation must surely be because it does work, for most people, and is a simple method of getting things to stay on the rails to start with. Knuckles' evaluation of the various types is very useful and about right, I think.

Philip

billbedford
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby billbedford » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:10 am

Flymo748 wrote:One point of clarification - Bill's spring units are now produced and sold by Eileen's Emporium, so Bill certainly has no financial interest in pushing full-springing to the exclusion of anything else.


I still have an interest in the Bill Bedford range of etchings, and I still maintain it.

I put a lot of effort into making all of my designs as simple to use as I can. So I can get more than a little p*ssed off when someone with little experience and less understanding extols a 'solution' that not only negates the concept of springing, but makes wagon building more complex and expensive.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

Knuckles
Posts: 1179
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:02 am

billbedford wrote:
Flymo748 wrote:One point of clarification - Bill's spring units are now produced and sold by Eileen's Emporium, so Bill certainly has no financial interest in pushing full-springing to the exclusion of anything else.


I still have an interest in the Bill Bedford range of etchings, and I still maintain it.

I put a lot of effort into making all of my designs as simple to use as I can. So I can get more than a little p*ssed off when someone with little experience and less understanding extols a 'solution' that not only negates the concept of springing, but makes wagon building more complex and expensive.


I still have an interest in the Bill Bedford range of etchings, and I still maintain it.

As is evident by all your overt advertisement posts strongly implying 'buy my units', exactly like I said. Shining with overt brilliance. Not wrong necessarily, but grating when inserted literally everywhere.

I put a lot of effort into making all of my designs as simple to use as I can.

And the ones I've used are good. I'll never take that away from you. If you can look past your disdain for me, could you please advise on a suitable unit for a Cooper Craft GWR V4 8'0 1/2 MINK? Looking at the W-irons they are thinner and rather different than the units I currently possess. As an early prototype the 1907 RCH don't look right so I'm unsure what is best.

So I can get more than a little p*ssed off when someone with little experience and less understanding extols a 'solution' that not only negates the concept of springing, but makes wagon building more complex and expensive.


Evident. Since Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:09 am. Seems no one is allowed to learn anything, feel their way around things without being perfect instantly.
Firstly, if a lack of experience in your eyes suggests a n00b keeps his mouth shut and let the views of the seasoned oppress, your going to perpetually be disappointed with me. Prepare to be p*ssed off more. :thumb

Secondly, it isn't a 'solution' per say, rather an experiment for a specific application to see if it would work. For me it has, also it so far seems better than compensation. I will still be using full springing mostly so no worries there. I'm not trying to compete or show myself as a guru although you give impression you think so, I just post what I do whether for good or bad. If you don't like my bodging style, by all means read the other threads from people with more finesse and enjoy those, I know I do.

Thirdly, it does negate the concept of 100% springing, but then that partly was the point. An experiment in compromise. Is it such a sin? No.

Fourthly, sorry, it's half the work to fit ONE unit rather than TWO, so where you get idea of extra complexity is a mystery.

More expensive you say? Hmm, let me think, one etch usually with full springing (yes, best result no doubt) = 3 wagons, or as a compromise, 6. Err, what's cheaper? You do the math.

But I guess therein lies more of Bill's beef with me, I suppose you see my result as a threat of sorts to sales if it takes off, or maybe you see me dragging the society's standards down into a pit of mediocrity. Again, I'll say it once more, I'm just faffing about and seeing what happens, then posting results, not teaching or trying to mislead anyone. If anyone is misled by my 'n00bity' then more fool them.

You were a n00b once, did you accept without reservation 100% of everything people told you, and implemented it without question? I used to, now I question everything and believe nothing blindly simply on the word of a confidant man, for an expert is one whom disagrees with another expert.

Learning the hard way is sometimes better. For me, it has often made more of an impact and sealed my confidence in perceived truths.

Your intensions and thoughts are clearer than silver crystal, with neon signs at night, flood lights and luminescent blimps.

I haven't fell out with you and I don't want to (maybe you have with me) yet your making a fine example of Might One-day Understand Social Appropriation.

Seriously, have a beer or few and relax.
EDIT: My current choice:
Image
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

Knuckles
Posts: 1179
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:00 am

I forgot to post my balls up and correction I mentioned. Forgot all about it. My apologies.

Well, quite simply, the biggest wagon I did out of the latest two I posted came with the sole bars already joined to the base, whereas before you stuck them on yourself. These proved a tweak thinner and so I came to mischief when thinning the insides out.

Image

I'll show I'm not a brilliant modeller at times and post my fudges in the hope that some poor soul can learn from my misfortunes and avoid the trouble. Hope that's proved useful; don't make the same mistake. :shock:
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Noel » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:54 am

With reference to Philp Hall's post, my two wagons illustrated are both rigid, as you may have noticed. They don't fall off normally, or I would do something about them. I do compensate long wheelbase wagons though, and am looking at springing for such wagons as well. Philip touches on a point which probably applies to many of use who have been wagon building for many years [over 35 in my case, though I don't claim any particular skills...] Like him I bought a lot of parts many years ago, which I still have in stock and am unwilling to throw away if I can get a useful result from them. I also don't much fancy trying to rebuild or replace my earlier efforts, unless they are clearly outmoded by my later work. The apparent Society emphasis on compensation is really for historical reasons I think; for many years that was the only option, springing having become a generally practical proposition only relatively recently, and the manual has not been updated, as discussed elsewhere. I too would agree with Knuckles' ranking of the options, but would add that this ranking is pretty much the inverse of rating by cost... You pays yer money, etc.

Noel
Regards
Noel

Philip Hall
Posts: 1238
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:17 pm

Knuckles,

Your approach to wagon building, and the learning of the methods thereof, is very refreshing so please keep at it. I think it is time to reiterate that there is NO one true path to keeping a wagon on the rails, however much those who wish to extol their particular methods would like us to believe. I gather that Bill's springing units work very well, and I shall look forward to trying them one day, but then so do many other ideas, including compensation and just not suspending at all.

We are supposed to be in this game to enjoy ourselves, although sometimes I do wonder a bit. Aforesaid enjoyment comes in many forms, including making a right old b...s up of it at times, so there is really no need to cast aspersions, however mild, over another's choices.

Philip

User avatar
Russ Elliott
Posts: 930
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Russ Elliott » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:38 pm

Knuckles wrote:could you please advise on a suitable unit for a Cooper Craft GWR V4 8'0 1/2 MINK? Looking at the W-irons they are thinner and rather different than the units I currently possess. As an early prototype the 1907 RCH don't look right so I'm unsure what is best.

Good question. The BBFW001 1907 RCH is the better shape, but it is possible that Bill did a longer span (i.e. normal 20mm) version of this at one time.

billbedford
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby billbedford » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:58 pm

Knuckles wrote:As is evident by all your overt advertisement posts strongly implying 'buy my units', exactly like I said. Shining with overt brilliance. Not wrong necessarily, but grating when inserted literally everywhere.

[….]

Your intensions and thoughts are clearer than silver crystal, with neon signs at night, flood lights and luminescent blimps.

[….]


You seem to have difficulty with comprehension. What I said was:

Why on earth would anyone want to use one fixed axle and one sprung?

With such an arrangement the body will follow the fixed axle over any track irregularities, thus negating most of the advantages of using springs.


Nothing there about advocating products, mine or anyone else's, not even a recommendation for springing. Just a simple statement that single fixed axles on a wagon are a Bad Idea.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

billbedford
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby billbedford » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:16 pm

Russ Elliott wrote:Good question. The BBFW001 1907 RCH is the better shape, but it is possible that Bill did a longer span (i.e. normal 20mm) version of this at one time.


BBF001, 002 and 003 are all the same profile. There are no narrow wagon w-irons, but there are are two narrow coach ones, BBF020 and BBF031.

Are we sure the Coopercraft w-iron is correct?
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

billbedford
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby billbedford » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:18 pm

Philip Hall wrote:The reason that the Society 'endorses' compensation must surely be because it does work, for most people, and is a simple method of getting things to stay on the rails to start with. Knuckles' evaluation of the various types is very useful and about right, I think.


I don't think I've ever met anyone who has used both springing and compensation and would still recommend compensation.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

User avatar
Flymo748
Posts: 2156
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Flymo748 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:25 pm

billbedford wrote:
Philip Hall wrote:The reason that the Society 'endorses' compensation must surely be because it does work, for most people, and is a simple method of getting things to stay on the rails to start with. Knuckles' evaluation of the various types is very useful and about right, I think.


I don't think I've ever met anyone who has used both springing and compensation and would still recommend compensation.


Bill, if you'll swap me one-for-one, axle-for-axle, my compensated w-irons for your sprung ones, you have a deal. I'll never build a compensated wagon again.

If not, like I'm sure many, many other members, I've a drawer full of compensation units that I'm not going to junk, and I wouldn't get much for on Ebay (other auction sites are available...).

So no, I certainly won't recommend compensation to someone starting afresh in 4mm finescale. But that's not going to stop me using what I already have.

You and Knuckles are having a bit of a banter when in reality you are both violently agreeing with each other ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL (my emphasis).

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Knuckles
Posts: 1179
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:28 pm

To Bill, it wasn't simply about those two partial quotes you just gave, but everything said in one accord from both of us. (and the other posts I was refering to)
But no worries, lets do some more modelling.

Edit: Just saw Flymo's post. I agree with Bill that 100% springing is king defo. I just disagree as to the practicality of implimentation in all contexts. I have one compensated wagon so far, just one, and it doesn't fall off, but as for visual asthetics it's abit naff.
Last edited by Knuckles on Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Noel » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:35 pm

I would suggest that we are omitting one important point. What matters most is the track; the better that is, the better the stock will run, whatever method is used. Some methods of building stock are more sensitive to dodgy track than others, but nothing will stay on bad track. Looking at stock and track separately and in isolation doesn't give the whole story.

Noel
Regards
Noel

User avatar
Russ Elliott
Posts: 930
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Russ Elliott » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:47 pm

billbedford wrote:BBF001, 002 and 003 are all the same profile.

Those three all look very different to me. (And there appears to be an unresolved height issue on 003.)

There are no narrow wagon w-irons

'Narrow'? Do you mean short span? Isn't 001 a short span?

Are we sure the Coopercraft w-iron is correct?

It's a bit rubbish actually, although not quite as rubbish as the rest of the Coopercraft stuff under the solebar.

Knuckles
Posts: 1179
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:42 am

RCH 1923 BBWF002 on that link is the closest match to the kit in question I rekon.

I thought how crisp the plastic W-irons are personally, but by naff I presume your talking dimensionally. They seem rather refined compared to your usual kit, in fact the whole kit I'm impressed by in terms of mould quality. Future build at some point for me.

I haven't built a Cooper Craft kit yet though so it'll be a first, most of what I have done so far on this thread are Cambrian. Quite like them now.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

User avatar
Craig Warton
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:58 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Craig Warton » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:15 am

Knuckles,

Even though the W-iron design is slightly different, the 1907 type is a more compact design and a far better fit on a 16' wagon. As was alluded to, the Coopercraft body mouldings are nice but the underframe is not so good. A few of them are designed so that the floor sits higher up in the wagon and if you want an empty wagon and are worried about such things it does look odd.

Regards,

Criag

Knuckles
Posts: 1179
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:51 am

I hear ya, is this something to do with making provisions for the tension lock?

Ghastly things, 'Obese Snowploughs' in the words of Tony Wright!
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

billbedford
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby billbedford » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:58 am

Russ Elliott wrote:
billbedford wrote:BBF001, 002 and 003 are all the same profile.

Those three all look very different to me. (And there appears to be an unresolved height issue on 003.)

BBK003 are for NPCS i.e. vehicles that have 3'7" wheels hence the difference in the axle position.
There are no narrow wagon w-irons

'Narrow'? Do you mean short span? Isn't 001 a short span?

I mean narrower. Some pre-RCH designs used smaller axleboxes so both the uprights and wing bars were closer together. You can see this effect by comparing the MR coach BBK 517 with the GWR BBK020 and the LSWR BBK031 (the later two you have still to put on the clag site.)

The difference between the 0xx series and the 5xx series is that the former are plain w-irons while the later include brake gear for six wheeled carriages.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

billbedford
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby billbedford » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:18 am

Flymo748 wrote:Bill, if you'll swap me one-for-one, axle-for-axle, my compensated w-irons for your sprung ones, you have a deal. I'll never build a compensated wagon again.

If not, like I'm sure many, many other members, I've a drawer full of compensation units that I'm not going to junk, and I wouldn't get much for on Ebay (other auction sites are available...).


Sorry, but I don't have a great deal of sympathy with people who complain about having a 'maturing cabinet' full of stuff. Just as I don't have much sympathy for people who still use Windows 3.

The world moves on.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

User avatar
jayell
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 8:20 am

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby jayell » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:24 am

billbedford wrote:
Sorry, but I don't have a great deal of sympathy with people who complain about having a 'maturing cabinet' full of stuff. Just as I don't have much sympathy for people who still use Windows 3.


I don't have much sympathy for people who use any version of MSWin :D

John

Knuckles
Posts: 1179
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:48 pm

billbedford wrote:
Sorry, but I don't have a great deal of sympathy with people who complain about having a 'maturing cabinet' full of stuff. Just as I don't have much sympathy for people who still use Windows 3.


I don't have much sympathy for people who advocate pointless wastage. I have a maturing cabinet, well, draw full of wagon kits. They do get built however so thankfully they arn't maturing into mould.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

User avatar
Russ Elliott
Posts: 930
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Russ Elliott » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:59 pm

billbedford wrote:I mean narrower. Some pre-RCH designs used smaller axleboxes so both the uprights and wing bars were closer together. You can see this effect by comparing the MR coach BBK 517 with the GWR BBK020 and the LSWR BBK031 (the later two you have still to put on the clag site.)

Thanks for clarification of 'narrower'.

I haven't been able to put 020 and 031 on the CLAG site because Eileen's doesn't show those etches.

The difference between the 0xx series and the 5xx series is that the former are plain w-irons while the later include brake gear for six wheeled carriages.

Useful to know.


Getting back to the difference in shape between 001 and 002, I'm confused:

- the artworks do look different in profile;
- the artwork shown (on Eileen's) for 002 does not appear to be the same as the appearance of the actual 002 etch (at least, as the 002 etch appeared originally).

bb-001-002-differences.png
bb-001-002-differences.png (21.77 KiB) Viewed 4455 times
Last edited by Russ Elliott on Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Russ Elliott
Posts: 930
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Russ Elliott » Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:10 pm

Knuckles wrote:I thought how crisp the plastic W-irons are personally, but by naff I presume your talking dimensionally. They seem rather refined compared to your usual kit, in fact the whole kit I'm impressed by in terms of mould quality. Future build at some point for me.

There's no doubting the crispness of the Coopercraft moulds, but it's a mistake to confuse that with authenticity.

I did a bunch of drawings for Paul Dunn a couple of years ago in connection with his announcement to embark on an improvement of the Coopercraft undersolebar components, but now all has gone silent from Coopercraft, as you no doubt will have read in another place.

User avatar
Craig Warton
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:58 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Craig Warton » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:57 am

Knuckles,

The photo below shows why the 1907 type iron is a better fit for the 16' cooper craft wagons. This is an O2 7 plank wagon, and the 1923 irons project about another 2.5 mm towards the headstock. There is not much room for the spring wire, let alone anything like buffers.

Regards,

Craig
Attachments
coopercraft -1907.jpg

billbedford
Posts: 660
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby billbedford » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:55 am

Russ Elliott wrote:I haven't been able to put 020 and 031 on the CLAG site because Eileen's doesn't show those etches.


Put them up on the Clag site.

I only print new tools if Derek can see a demand for the etches, i.e. if people ask for them. The tool for the LSWR coaches has been done, and the GWR one seems to me just what is needed for the Ratio four wheelers.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz


Return to “Wagons”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest