Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Knuckles
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Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sun May 06, 2012 7:30 pm

Like the thread on points I thought it'd make sence to organise things; this time my wagon experiments and progress can go in here from now on.



First off a quote of the progress so far...

Might be worth making a new thread for this, if so please tell me and I'll post it in a new thread and delete this post after.


Progress report, P4 conversion attempt and a lesson on how to do some mild kit bashing.

Having bent my first Bill Bedford etch the wrong way, I have refrained from Bill's advice of hammering it into a pulp(!) and bent it the opposite way whilst strengthening the wire retaining flaps with some solder.

Image

I have only got a Couple of kits I could try to adapt so I went for the Dapol Cattle Waogon. I don't know how suitable it is for P4 conversion but I have built a few up in the past so am comfortable with the kit - I don't need the instructions for this one so I'm in known territory.

I would like to buy the correct cast axle boxes, leaf springs and all those other 'pipey' bits but I do not know which I need, second to that I'm guessing the S4 stores will be sold out for what I probably need. I looked and it seeems that way, please make suggestions from there or another place so I can get a stock going.

Becasue of the above and the fact I'm an impatient bugger at times I decided to do something that I guess some would see as lunacy! I'm confortable with plastic modeling especially though so I know what I can achieve. I've decided to have a go at cutting the W-Irons out of the 1 peice Dapol moulding whilst retaining the axle-boxes and leaf springs. I know they arn't the best representation available but they are good enough for me, for the time being especially. My challenge is to make a first working P4 wagon so asthetics will have to come later when I know what I'm doing.

So, first job was to cut the visible W's away from the axle boxes, I used several score lines for this but found it easier after to just clip them out with the Xuron's.

Scored
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Poped away
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Next stage was to get rid of the rest of the W Irons and make the inside surface flush with the rest of the beam (drag beam? Unsure on a lot of correct terminology)
To do this I started to carefully clip away at the W struts.
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After that it was a simple matter of knifing the rest away and filing until happy, followed by neatening everything up.
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Next stage was to hollow out the axle boxes for the bearing clearence upon spring. two drill holes with the center join hacked away. A mixture of drill action, knife, and various files and a good while later and we have an oval hole.
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Clearence and fit tests. After these 2 pictures were taken I got the axle box to sit flush with the brass W Iron so happy days, it sprung without getting in the way.
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Next thing was to give the main base a few fit tests, supprisingly it seems the etch will fit in nicely once I destroy half of the underside detail, so I used the same method described earlier. Two pictures tell the story.
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Repeat for all four.
Well there is always one isn't there? I was supprised I got this far after deciding to undertake such a risky operation, however I think I have thus far succeded and have enjoyed it an awful lot. It's been a long time since i've had a decient modelling session where I feel I have made progress. i had to use a bit of scrap to fil the missing bit of leaf spring and glue the other crack. Trying to file this and clip bits away wasn't easy as it broke before I took most of the plastic away, however it now is like the others. Will have to sort those asthetics out after because it looks horrid as I'm sure you will agree. Function is my first priority so it'll be sorted later.

Ugh
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That's all for now, please let me know what you think, advice etc. :) If you know what type and where I can get decient and correct type sprung bufers for this wagon please let me know, same for the cast or etched components needed for truck conversions.

-------------------------------Next Post--------------------------------

Thanks for your replies. :) Am taking it on board.

I've had a fiddle this afternoon and have got a bit further, but as is alot of this I'm sucking it and seeing.

I'm probably doing this all wrong but if I'm doing it wrong then it seems to be working so I do not know!

This looks horrid I know, amazingly crude.
Image
The outer uneven holes are for the tabs in the etch to go through. In hind sight it would probably have been better to file them off but I'm unsure on ride height. I did leave them where they were and packed the etch underneith with plastic card but this was too high a ride height, since popping them through these holes it seems about right, I used my pin vice as a weight and the chassis depressed about half a mm and looks right. I think. Also the screws arn't through the hole evenly and if I was doing a 5 plank wagon this would be unnacceptable but as it's a cattle wagon and a test I'm not too fussed. I'm open to ideas. :P

This is how it looks before a little wight depression, I think it's fine, looks better when it's dipped a tad. I'm guessing add 25 grams of lead to each etch underneith? (as long as it oens't foul the spring or axle
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Here the brass W Irons push up to the plastic axles ok but are currently sprung away a tad. This sems to be a matter of messing about more than anything, but is the gaps between everything excessive?
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General impression.
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I haven't modded the axleboxes or springs or moved them, cut them etc. Might do later but currently think they ok as is.

One thing I really do need to know is how to tell if the wheels are all square to each other etc etc. Currently it's just been a game of tweak and roll. Rolls fine on my straight and bendy bit of track I made but I guess I won't be able to tell until it goes through points. Still waiting on that point blade in the post. I suppose it doesn't help in using a screw in the middle that can pivot either but as I say, I don't really know what I'm doing! it does seem to work ok so far though.

?

-One thing I've noticed since taking thee pics is that one axle seems a tad out on one end compared to everything else, yet it seems to work fine as above. Been tweaking but can't seem to solve the reason or solution.

-----------------------------------Next Post------------------------------------------

I'll probably compile the wagon progress into it's own thread soon. However, please could ye advise me on something?

This is where I currently am...

Image

That wonky sprung buffer is the 1st one I showed elsewhere but the other 3 are level, must have been shunted aggressively. I'm not bothering with finer brake gear or anything for this one as it's just a test to see if I can do it. In full Boneheadery I didn't paint the inside, clip those bolts or put weight on the inside. As a result the 'Butanoned' roof is extreemely comfortable where he is!

So how in the world am I supposed to get approximately 25 grams of weight on each axle? Rather than putting it inside I will need to learn how to do it the hard way anyway, otherwise how else are you supposed to represent a train of empties? 5 planks or whatever.

The following fuzzy photo shows some of my roofing lead cut and folded via a vice; it's about the right weight but is immensly thick and more importantly, noticable. Very visual.
I'll probably compile the wagon progress into it's own thread soon. However, please could ye advise me on something?

This is where I currently am...

Image

In full Boneheadery I didn't paint the inside, clip those bolts or put weight on the inside. 'As a result the Butanoned' rood is extreemely comfortable where he is!

So how in the world am I supposed to get approximately 25 grams of weight on each axle? Rather than putting it inside I will need to learn how to do it the hard way anyway, otherwise how else are you supposed to represent a train of empties? 5 planks or whatever.

The following fuzzy photo shows some of my roofing lead cut and folded via a vice; it's about the right weight but is immensly thick and more importantly, noticable. Very visual.

Image

Um. Ahee. Any ideas? :shock:



To which a few people kindly replied helping loads. Thanks. ;)

One reply in particular I found very helpful. Pictures always help too.

allanferguson wrote:This is one of our resin 7 tonners from Burntisland, and you can see how the lead weight is fitted in. The thickness of the lead is a fraction less than the depth of the solebars (Squeeze it a bit harder in the vice if needs be)

You just need to cut the lead to fit the available spaces and fit it carefully to avoid fouling any moving parts. And don't use an adhesive that will dissolve the wagon floor -- I use Araldite rapid. You could probably remove the crossmembers under the floor.

The weight of that verra wee wagon, incidentally, is 32.8 gm; one of our group has managed 35 gm, but that's pushing things. The 25 gm per axle is just a suggestion -- what is important is reasonably consistent weights throughout the train.

Allan F

Resin underside.jpg


Thus...

Before (complete with yellow lamp lighting!)
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After Xuron and mini drill abuse
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Aaaand...
"Wont sum led mayte? ayve got loads younz"
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45 grams, I was aiming for 50 so Happy days. :D I used 2 part epoxy resin glue.
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All that's needed now is to add 3 link couplings, pipes and paint. I am seriously thinking of using Dingham couplers because they to my mind look the part and I think they operate well. Apparently they are compatible with 3-link, Instanter and screw link so I might be able to have a choice. I did seriously think about using Alex Jackson couplings but I think in all honesty they have gone 'too far' with the attempt to have an unobtrusive coupling and as a result it looks a bit like the stock is being propelled by ghosts. For these P4 experiments (or am I a convert yet?? probably, where is that line?) I want to build a small wagon fleet up with 3 links. Tony Wright of BRM said tension lock couplers look like "Obese snowloughs", I'm inclined to agree with him! :x
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Knuckles
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sun May 06, 2012 7:52 pm

Ok, whilst I still need to finish the cattle wagon and get some tie bars sorted for my turnout I thought I'd make a start on a wagon from Cambrian. To my knowledge they have a good reputation and the price (discluding wheels and couplings) made me drool. Seriously, you don't find this kind of value these days. Less than £5, 4 sometimes for a wagon can't be bad.



Anyway, I have to build it against the instructions due to me 'P4ing' it.









This is the kit, I've decided I'm going to collect these yellow cards for prototype reference, very clear.

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This is what you get inside, the big components I've already removed and cleaned up.

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The instructions suggest you add 3-links to the buffer beam before assembling, so I got my collection out. I've had these for a good while but rarely used them. I can see that changing now! I try to keep organised as you can see.

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That said, my desk is a bit of a mess at the moment.

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W irons recieved the same treatment as on the cattle wagon. Scalpel and file abuse.

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And errrm. That's it for now. Expect posts soonish.
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Flymo748
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Flymo748 » Sun May 06, 2012 8:18 pm

Knuckles wrote:This is where I currently am...

Image

That wonky sprung buffer is the 1st one I showed elsewhere but the other 3 are level, must have been shunted aggressively. I'm not bothering with finer brake gear or anything for this one as it's just a test to see if I can do it. In full Boneheadery I didn't paint the inside, clip those bolts or put weight on the inside. As a result the 'Butanoned' roof is extreemely comfortable where he is!

Hi Knuckles,

I see that you've sorted out the lead weight thing now.

One little tip that will help - unless my eyes have deceived me, the buffers on your cattle wagon still have the little pip in the middle of them where they have been turned.

Give each of them a couple of gentle strokes with a needle file to remove this. That will help the buffer faces slide over each other if they come into contact, rather than catch on each other and cause trouble...

Good luck with the coupling dilemma. It's a very personal choice for people. I'm not an AJ man either, finding them too fiddly to make and maintain. That doesn't mean that they aren't right for others - just not for me.

Flymo
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Knuckles
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sun May 06, 2012 8:22 pm

Thanks Flymo. I did actually file a pip off but I'll do the rest. :)

I'm thinking 3 link plus Dingham.
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David Knight
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby David Knight » Sun May 06, 2012 11:30 pm

Hi Knuckles,

FWIW I did a review of Dinghams in S4 News 147 p. 16 available on line. I use them and am happy with them but there are a few limitations you should be aware of.
1. They are handed, so all the wagons have to be facing the same way to couple reliably, not a big deal as most people don't turn their wagons. The main issue is with locomotives but if you are happy with tender first running or like tanks or diesels then no problem at all.
2. They prefer wide curves, this is not much of a problem until you hit a sharp corner with wagons of different length, at that point the shorter wagon may get derailed by the longer, but not always. I've run mine down to 36" radius with no problems apart from the varying length thing.
3. They prefer track without sharp changes in elevation as unwanted uncoupling can occur.
Apart from that, if you follow the instructions they work as advertised.

HTH

David
PS Sorry, should have added that the usual disclaimer applies, no connection with the company, just a happy punter.

wally

Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby wally » Mon May 07, 2012 12:31 pm

Just a quick suggestion, if you have a small amount of cash spare get a piercing saw.and some fine blades to use during the surgical bits.

This will give a more controlled cut with much less cleaning up afterwards.

I must say I admire your confidence to use a pair of cutters in such close spaces but the results are admirable.

Wally

Knuckles
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Mon May 07, 2012 5:21 pm

Thanks David for that information, It'll come in handy. :) I was thinking of giving the Loco's screw links at the front, then a dingham on the rear vehicle for run arounds. Would that work?

To Wally: I might get those saws, they could help. With plastics I'm pretty confidant in my abilities, not much stops me I'm happy to say, but that's becasue I've been modelling since I was about 12-ish I guess. I reciently turned 27. I'm not saying I'm the 'master of experience', now way. People on here have trumped that count. Plus other materials I'm less aquanted with and need more practice. I'm fairly comfortable with brass and soldering but I have little experience there.

Can you reccomend a good company for those saws? I had a cheap set ages ago, but they were really cheap and so you can guess the rest!

-
I know some of my write ups may be old news to many of you so sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs, it's my journey of descovery and I know some others are interested, plus I post them on a few forums. If you have a better way please tell me! I'm having to work out most of this myself.

Ok progress report. Finished.

I've done abit of putting together. I didn't realise that I'd have to remove 80 or 90% of what I added with the inside lamination thingies / solebars? Sides of the truck frame - that'll do! Bill's sprung W irons were in the way. Rather than being carefull I bastardised them with a mini drill. Was fun but in hindsight I think I would have had a better more neat job if I only added the middle section that's left. Good thing is I know for the future now when making these Cambrian wagons.
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Yes, as usual I broke the axlebox and springs off again. In hindsight I think going the white metal route might be a viable option simply for durability. Insides were destroyed with a dental buur for sprung axle's working clearence.
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Plonked just to look at.
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I thought seeing as I'd almost buggered them I would try one of the other methods recognised in the S4 digest sheets. Glue them direectly to the W-Irons, this time in one piece.
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Ride height was too low so I use some scrap plastic card, I think it was 1mm but unsure. I think here I should have used that buffer gauge but unsure. See last 2 pics.
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The Brassmasters axle spacing gauge that was reccomended is a real boon. However it doesn't seem to position things perfectly and there is still a degree of wiggle testing. Any advice here? I glued the units on this time and tweaked it as it was drying. can't have a 3 foot bolt through the floor this time.
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Not far off completion now.
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Lead weight added again. The truck now weighs 32grams.
1) Is this acceptable?
2) More importantly, is this acceptable and compatible with the other wagon that weighs 45 grams?
3) Looking at my cattle wagon in previus posts I need to add couplings. I didn't think and added wight where the coupling hook needs to slide through. Is it acceptable to NOT have them sprung and / or should I remove the lead to provide a slot. removing some lead will bring the weight down to I guess 40 grams or less. I need much advice here. I plan to have working 3 links and Dinghams so weighting them and knowing if I need sprung couplings and all that jazz is important.
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More springy buffers added. I'm loving these. I drill a 0.5mm hole 1st for the thin part of the buffer, and a 1mm hole for the neck and spring to butt against.
With this model the buffer beams were half hollow and way too thin so I provided more body by adding plastic cube scraps from 1.5mm plastic card. Did the trick. Ends slightly bend to retain them.
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Buffer height slightly different. Probably a scale 3-5 inches. I know the real railways didn't ALWAYS have matching buffer heights becasue I've seen them in photographs and been to steam railways etc. Any advice here? I'm not to bothered becasue it look sfine at most viewing distances, further more it might be prototypically correct for all I know. 3rd reason is it's still early days for me. Any ideas? :)

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Finished minus paint, cattle wagon just needs couplings and a bar joining the W-irons so I guess you coule consider that complete.
Has took about a day and a half for this latest wagon. I've enjoyed doing it on the whole.
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Yay.
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Mark Tatlow » Mon May 07, 2012 8:09 pm

Hi Knuckles,

There are a number of buffer height gauges about (and they are pretty easy to make if you want to).

Mine is the Morgan Gilbert one that is available from the stores and includes an AJ height gauge. Here is a piccie of it in use:

482.JPG


I am not too sure which of your two vehicles is wrong (although the cattle wagon does seem to be sitting low on its W irons?). The gauge will soon tell you. You might get away with the level of the difference you have, but it is the tops you could expect to avoid buffer locking on.
Mark Tatlow

Philip Hall
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Philip Hall » Mon May 07, 2012 9:20 pm

You've made a nice job of these two, and the important thing is that you've enjoyed doing it. I have settled over the years for a 'shortcut' approach, which means that I sometimes spring buffers, rather depends on how dedicated I feel at the time. Not so with coupling hooks, which I never spring, simply securing them with a spot of epoxy. I usually use the Ambis hooks, which are a nice shape, and I also use them single thickness rather than the double thickness they are designed for. I find I don't notice that they are a bit thin, they're just as strong, and it's easier to drop links over the thinner hooks with the shunter's pole.

As for weight, I try for the '25g per axle' and usually glue some thin lead sheet inside the wagon. Even if it's an empty, if the sheet is relatively thin I don't notice that the wagon floor is a touch higher than it should be. I use roofing lead, hammered thinner. Often I cover it with 5thou styrene sheet, carefully scribed for planks, and more often than not there will be the remains of a load anyway which helps the camouflage. I have yet to join the ranks of those who spring, being mostly content with MJT inside rocking bearings which save all that carving about of the springs and axleboxes. Not so free running, to be sure, and not so elegant of movement perhaps, but it works as long as you don't want to pull massive trains around. For proprietary wagons (mostly Bachmann) I just change the wheels and add a touch more weight, which seems to work. But I must try springing some day.

Philip

David Knight
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby David Knight » Mon May 07, 2012 11:23 pm

Knuckles wrote "I was thinking of giving the Loco's screw links at the front, then a dingham on the rear vehicle for run arounds. Would that work?"

Err, probably. The catch might be the curves once again as the Dingham/ screwlink connection will be much closer than Dingham to Dingham. Also, coupling loop to loop does work but is trickier to uncouple. Another caution, I notice the height difference between the Cooper Craft wagons and the others, careful adjustment is needed here to make sure all works properly (voice of experience). Otherwise you're doing well with your kits, keep up the good work!

Cheers,

David

Knuckles
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sun May 13, 2012 12:50 pm

The cattle wagon is Dapol and the other Cambrian, I haven't made a Cooper Craft kit yet, any good?

New update and a new wagon. Construction was almost the same as before. I learnt a lesson from the previous truck that has led to easier and more accurate placement of the W iron etches. On the last truck they might be too far to one side by half a mm or so, it runs great with the shunting finger and gravity roll but in a train with energies bing pulled forward it might be a problem - will see when it comes to it, if there is a problem then I will have to scrape the etches off, clean the serfaces and have another go.

This is the new truck.
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This time I didn't bother doubling up the solebar thickness (is it a solebar?) I just cut the W iron and axle boxes off and left that 'V hanger thingummy' for the brakes. Thus.
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After fitting both sides by some happy reason I cannot name the etches got themselves comfortable.
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Being a shorter wheelbase than the last one, I encountered a problem. The springs were in the way of the buffer beam.
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This was easily remidied by bending one side of the springs only. On the last truck I bent both sides to retain them as they kept escaping, but doing one side here workes great.
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Rather than filing off the tabs and then gluing plastic card for the running height on the wagon floor. I this time retained the tabs and just glued a peice of plastic card inside becasue the tabs were about the same height. Plastic was the same thickness as the last truck, so I think 1mm.
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Almost finished with no weight, sadly this time I haven't managed to fit sprung buffers due to there now being almost no room, I even cut the springs in half but still no room, so I have had to just glue them solid. :( For those that are in the know (not me!) will it make a difference operationally? Same for the Slaters couplings, I haven't sprung them this time but super glued them. I'm only used to fat tension locks being the buffer so I don't know, I'd like to have everything sprung if possible. More fun that way too.
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Lead added, weighs about the same as the other, roughly 32 grams. Going to try to make 30-40 grams a standard becasue that seems managable. Will that difference between weights make a difference? I'd like to do the S4 Digest's reccomendation of 50Grams per wagon but unless they have loads this I don't think is realistic unless it's a white metal kit. Suggestions?
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Finished!
The bottom of the W iron I haven't folded up because the axle box looked too low. I don't think this is an RCH wagon so that may be the reason. It'll do. The curved ends ads loads of character I think.
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Been having a play with my cobbled up shunters pole and that turnout (that still needs some form of blade joining)

No tension
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tension
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You may also notice I have added some white metal vacuum brakes to the cattle wagon from Wizard Models / 51L - Universal type. Unsure if they are prototypically correct but I'm not to bothered, they look miles better than Dapol's moulded 'triangle'

Together.
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Happy days. :) The next wagon I do will feature the use of Paletine Models baseplates. castleb on RMweb suggested them, and I think yes is my answer. I'll be interested to see how they go.

You bored of wagons yet!? 8-)
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craig_whilding
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby craig_whilding » Sun May 13, 2012 2:28 pm

I'd really suggest ditching the fold up tabs on the w-irons in future and laying lead the full length of the chassis with a small slot in each end for the coupling hook. Possibly also cut away some of the plastic at the base of the brake shoes to give you more room still and you should be able to get this up to 40g or more. The thickness is also important to get the lead as flush with the bottom of the solebars as you can.

On my chassis kits I used thinner spring wire meaning I didn't have to put the pivots for springing so far apart, makes a big difference for the spring buffers. The masokits units also have their spring pivots closer together.

Knuckles
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sun May 13, 2012 2:57 pm

Hammering out a flat lead plate sounds like it would be a real pain trying to get it even all over. Seccondly what about the ride height? I'm thinking of using those Paletine plates next attempt, they might bring the buffer height correct without the plastic but if there was a lead sheet under then that I doubt would work.

On my chassis kits I used thinner spring wire meaning I didn't have to put the pivots for springing so far apart, makes a big difference for the spring buffers. The masokits units also have their spring pivots closer together.


Unsure what you mean by this. is the pivot the little fold in tabs that the wire goes through? Also what you mean about the sprung buffers? Also (2) where can I get different gauge wire from and what is it made from? I still have more room to add weight in the trucks at each corner, probably enough for 5-8 grams at a guess. I just tested it and it was almost 40 grams. Is 32 grams too light?

Question man me!
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Mike Garwood
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Mike Garwood » Sun May 13, 2012 4:48 pm

Guitar strings - available from most Music shops. If you are going down the PO wagon route then I can recommend Craig's etches. Pretty straight forward apart from the brake loop oragarmi!
Can I ask why you don't put the lead weight inside the wagon? Once painted, who's going to know...

Mike

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John Bateson
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby John Bateson » Sun May 13, 2012 5:00 pm

I use
http://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/
look for "Ernie Ball" Electric or Acoustic Guitar String P/N 1012 for 12 gauge
They work out at Qty 6 for £4.50

Music shops around here are as rare as model railway shops - about 50 miles away!
John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...
Avoiding the soaps ...
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Knuckles
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Sun May 13, 2012 6:07 pm

Thanks for the information on strings. :)

The reason I don't put lead in the wagon itself is because I like to keep things modular, especially when making mini films. I don't want to comit a load inside a wagon (and hide the weight) when later I will be wanting to remove it for some reason. I also like to look at the planking detail and by having things this way it is to me more fun and can them seem fresh, almost like a different wagon.

I think tarpaulins might be an exception, also closed vans I can stick weight in.

I'm making a new post on points soon in the other thread I made

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2002&start=50
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Knuckles
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Mon May 14, 2012 4:07 pm

I've since managed to upp the weight to 40 grams on the small truck and will do the same to the other...

What you think of this?
Image
Image


Slaters 3 links, al but one truck sprung ( and 1 buffer on the cattle wagon is solid)



The shunting finger pushes them and they seem to go round very happily, on what, a 12-15 inch radius curve!?

Ok it isn't a locomotive, but they are sailing around quite happily. Same goes foe that Hymek I converted, that went round a curve almost as tight.



I doubt a pacific would (I want to run them) but this is really making me doubt the need for a 4 foot radius curve. Any ideas here? It has to be said that the designs I'm making only have curves off the scenic area for the most part, so I'm not to bothered about how it looks, just a case of will things run well.



?
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craig_whilding
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby craig_whilding » Mon May 14, 2012 4:25 pm

4ft minimum is normally to allow most of the details to be put on locos in the right place such as footsteps on the corners at the front of locos which can usually interfere with pony trucks/bogies.

3ft seems ok for some locos build specifically for it, not sure if anyone can confirm a pacific around such a radii though?

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Knuckles
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Mon May 14, 2012 4:27 pm

Ok, I guess I'd need 4ft then because of the front steps.
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Philip Hall
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Philip Hall » Mon May 14, 2012 5:36 pm

3ft seems ok for some locos build specifically for it, not sure if anyone can confirm a pacific around such a radii though?


More years ago than I care to mention we had two of Alan Ketley's big engines, a rebuilt Merchant Navy and a 9F, squeeze around a 1ft 9ins curve on my old 'Taw Vale' layout. However, it is true that the curve was gauge widened well in excess of the recommended amounts, and it was dead slow, and he hadn't yet fitted the cylinder drain pipes. Alan's loco's were sprung with plastic Kean Maygib hornblocks, as I recall, and he certainly wasn't renowned for building them sloppy.

However, other than for appearance reasons, I think that 2ft 6ins - 3ft is perfectly feasible for a Pacific in P4 as long as you accept certain limitations on speed and appearance. As Craig says, though, 4ft is much better if you have the room. My current plans are aiming for that (on the main lines) but space constraints might mean a little less.

Philip

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Mon May 14, 2012 5:46 pm

I think the best bet will be for me to convert a pacific (err, GULP) and then try it on my flexi track at different radius and see how it goes through at different speeds.

If it's happy at sharper curves then I'll adopt it, if not then I'll stick to the 4feet.

The reason I don't really want to do 4ft is because of the plans I have, they are mostly end to end scenic areas but with unscenic loops to make them roundy roundy. My idea is to have several layouts fit within the same area, so modular.

I know it'll take ages to do 1 layout but I'm thinking of 2 things, the future.

1) rather than rip up a layout when I get bored I can just make another and store the scenic boards IN the baseboard, like a racking system.

2) I like to make films so different areas are important.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Philip Hall » Mon May 14, 2012 6:02 pm

A thought might be to convert one of the newer Hornby Pacifics which are, in effect, 4-6-0s (because the trailing truck is cast as part of the chassis, and the wheels are flangeless). Candidates here are Britannias, Clans & the rebuilt Bulleid Pacifics, maybe others. They look a bit funny on tight curves - which is where we came in - but has the bonus of saving the purchase of a set of trailing wheels; as they're blind the overscale width helps them slide around the curves, and the subterfuge is less obvious than it is in 00 because of our small flanges. I have a Clan to do one day, which is pure indulgence, it's not in any way appropriate for my chosen BR (S) in the South West!

I think that a commercial chassis are often a better option for tighter radii than kit or scratch built, as slidebar centres are often pushed out a bit, but not obtrusively so.

Philip

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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Knuckles » Mon May 14, 2012 7:03 pm

I plan to convert a new tooling Hornby A1. I bashed two into different forms of the RWS Gordon (see in the lounge my thread, warm welcome indeed, n00b and model examples or something)

Also a 4-6-0 Fury, but that chassis runs crap so I new thing might be better.
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Philip Hall » Mon May 14, 2012 8:00 pm

That's the kind I thought of, effectively a 4-6-0. And you've used them before, so you're halfway there. I imagine Comet might do something suitable for Fury?

Philip

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Russ Elliott
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Re: Knuckles's Wagon Building Log

Postby Russ Elliott » Tue May 15, 2012 12:35 pm

Knuckles: for getting buffer height consistent on sprung vehicles, your strategy should be to secure the W-irons as the final step, i.e. get all the weights attached first (in various places, as you have done), and then try the W-irons 'dry-run' in the completed wagon to determine what distance of packing between the chassis underside and W-iron topside is required. (I glue a layer of 10 or 20 thou plasticard to the top of the W-iron first, and thus when adding the final plasticard packing layers, all that is required is a quick splash of solvent to secure the final position.)

On wagon weights, don't worry unduly about the '50g' recommendation, because it is only a recommendation (although a sensible one). Like buffer height, aiming for a consistency of weight is more important than an absolute value. On some wagons though, like a Conflat, it won't be possible to achieve 50g, and with a cast whitemetal van, it won't be possible to get below about 70g or 80g.

On spring length, you should need only 2mm or 3mm of spring tail on the outside of the unit: if you start bending the ends, there is a danger you will alter the straightness of the spring:

Image

Looks like your spring tail on your open wagon is being impeded by the sprue with the V on. Plan ahead and cut these back before compromising the fit of the W-iron.


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