RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

User avatar
Triode
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 10:20 am

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Triode » Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:43 am

The P4 wheels are 12.5mm in diameter. Quite a bit smaller than the prototype 3'7".

User avatar
ClikC
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:15 am

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby ClikC » Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:38 am

Triode wrote:The P4 wheels are 12.5mm in diameter. Quite a bit smaller than the prototype 3'7".


That is disappointing, 1.83mm undersized on the diameter for the prototype.

jim s-w wrote:Hornby opted for both on their class 50!


History repeating.
Matt Rogers

User avatar
Triode
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 10:20 am

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Triode » Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:29 am

Agreed. It's a shame.

I would have preferred if they supplied the correct size wheels, even if it pushed the buffer height up and needed some surgery to the gear towers to bring it down.

Daddyman
Posts: 740
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:09 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Daddyman » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:05 am

I wrote to them yesterday about the issues I have with the model - the oversize bogie-to-body gap, and the poorly affixed windscreen surrounds. This is something I've never done with another manufacturer, but I felt Accurascale took their models seriously and it was worth a try. Don't think I'll bother in future...
I got a couple of one-liners back from them. They started off claiming that the gap was "quite prototypical" but when I sent them the photo on page 1 of this thread, they admitted that both wheel size and gap had been altered to accommodate trainset gradients. I actually sympathise with them on that (what else could they do?), but the fact that they started off trying to claim the gap was prototypical, and then offered me "scale" wheels as a solution, which we now know from the last two posts don't exist, raised my hackles a bit.
With regard to my other criticism (the poorly-rendered windscreen surrounds), they simply didn't respond. But they did say that the parts are separately applied etches, which confirms my feeling that the tabs haven't been removed from the etches properly, and the accurate application of these parts depends on the whims and skills of the individual factory worker (mine has 3 wrong and one OK). I notice that all the models on their website have the surrounds applied well, with the tabs less prominent. But on the customers' models I've seen they look like a first-timer's attempt to attach some etched parts - skew-whiff and with a bit too much glue. Here are the ones on mine:
22-06-2022_14-47-42_resized.jpg


I know all this could be sorted with some Modelling (though I'm not sure what can be done about the windscreen surrounds - perhaps prise them off and re-seat?), but I have enough of that to do already, and this class is in no way central to my interests - I just wanted a quick fix. As it is, I think mine will be going on ebay. Fortunately I ordered one of the best sellers.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Daddyman on Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Forum Team
Posts: 3917
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:18 am

ClikC wrote:
Triode wrote:The P4 wheels are 12.5mm in diameter. Quite a bit smaller than the prototype 3'7".


That is disappointing, 1.83mm undersized on the diameter for the prototype.

jim s-w wrote:Hornby opted for both on their class 50!


History repeating.

At least the Hornby 50 is easily fixable, Alan Gibson offered correct size replacement wheelsets and the bogie pivot height is easily modified. Then you just have to be careful with any vertical curves on your layout. http://www.norgrove.me.uk/class50.htm
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

User avatar
Triode
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 10:20 am

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Triode » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:54 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:At least the Hornby 50 is easily fixable, Alan Gibson offered correct size replacement wheelsets and the bogie pivot height is easily modified. Then you just have to be careful with any vertical curves on your layout. http://www.norgrove.me.uk/class50.htm


I'm hoping the same will be true of the Accurascale Deltic: fit some 14mm wheels and remove some material from the bogie pivot to reduce the ride height. I'll find out how practical this is if/when I'm brave enough to remove the body and look inside!

Tony Wilkins
Posts: 814
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:57 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Tony Wilkins » Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:08 pm

Triode wrote:
grovenor-2685 wrote:At least the Hornby 50 is easily fixable, Alan Gibson offered correct size replacement wheelsets and the bogie pivot height is easily modified. Then you just have to be careful with any vertical curves on your layout. http://www.norgrove.me.uk/class50.htm


I'm hoping the same will be true of the Accurascale Deltic: fit some 14mm wheels and remove some material from the bogie pivot to reduce the ride height. I'll find out how practical this is if/when I'm brave enough to remove the body and look inside!

Instructions here.
https://www.accurascale.com/pages/suppo ... eltic-body
I'm wondering if I am going to have the same issues with the forthcoming 37, (probably).
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

User avatar
John Donnelly
Web Team
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:30 pm

I've just checked the windscreen etches on the two that I have so far and, out of the 8 etches, 1 isn't perfect although from anything more than 6 inches away you can't tell...

User avatar
Triode
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 10:20 am

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Triode » Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:40 pm

FYI, I've made a post regarding the P4 wheelset diameter in the Accurascale Deltic thread on the forum beginning with R. Will wait and see what they come back with.

Personally, I'm hoping they will consider supplying scale diameter wheelsets on future releases. I would rather only have the work of lowering the ride height than sourcing larger wheelsets as well.

User avatar
Triode
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 10:20 am

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Triode » Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:41 pm

John Donnelly wrote:I've just checked the windscreen etches on the two that I have so far and, out of the 8 etches, 1 isn't perfect although from anything more than 6 inches away you can't tell...


Mine has three good ones and one that is a bit loose and will need glueing back into place. Overall I'm happy with them. Its stablemate The Durham Light Infantry was delivered today, so fingers crossed it is ok too.

User avatar
BryanJohnson
Posts: 181
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:45 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby BryanJohnson » Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:57 pm

I've got one slightly visible tab out of four windscreens which I'll live with. As with many of us, it has no place in my mainstream modelling. I suspect that it'll be the best Deltic model that comes out in my lifetime. I keep looking back at photos of the Hornby Dublo version from 1960 to see just how far RTR has come in that time.
I've also bought it as much for the sound as the appearance. Has anyone turned the volume up on it yet?
To help those who haven't received a box of wheelsets, these are the boxes my loco (rear) and P4 wheelsets (front) arrived in.
IMG_20220622_115239.jpg

Bryan
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Philip Hall
Posts: 1943
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:06 pm

I’m not going to buy one of these although when it was first mooted I thought I might give in, if it gave me an (almost as good as a Pendleton) Deltic. However, with seemingly poor assembly and major dimensional flaws of ride height and wheel diameter, I’ve lost the enthusiasm. I know these things are cheap compared to a hand built model, but there’s going to be a lot of work to correct the things that shout at you and are so obviously wrong. Bachmann got it nearly right, the promise of Accurascale having a real go at it and properly doing the engine justice was very good.

Seems they’ve failed.

Philip

Jeremy Good
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:36 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Jeremy Good » Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:31 pm

Still waiting for mine to arrive as it’s one of the DPS limited edition versions.

There seem to be some fairly harsh comments on here although very few seem to have actually got/seen one of these in the flesh. I think that’s a shame as Accurascale have been highly supportive of P4 modelling and have tried to raise the bar for RTR diesels.

In any mass produced model there will have to be compromises especially if the model is to suit the majority of its market. In this case those compromises are clearly aimed at making it acceptable to the majority of modellers working in 4mm scale, the OO gauge modeller many of whom will want to run this model on unrealistically tight curves.

Judging by the sales of the wheelsets the P4 modelling fraternity accounts for only 100 or so of the production run of these models, a small proportion, but Accurascale have tried to accommodate our idiosyncrasies into a commercial product to make it accessible across the range of 4mm modelling. For this they should be applauded even if they haven’t “got it all right” to quote an awful, dated strapline.

The fact that they have been prepared to engage with the Committee and produce wheels to our minority standards is a positive step forward and, hopefully, may result in a few more modellers adopting our standards.

I hope I don’t have to eat my words when Tulyar arrives but I don’t expect any commercial product to be 100% right for me out of the box. The Accurascale Deltic seems to be 95% of the way there and with a few Shawplan bits (brake levers and possibly window frames) and a Penbits/Rumney sprung bogie to address the gap and wheel size issue will allow me to get much closer to Chris Pendleton’s paragon of a Deltic more easily than anything that has gone before. We are after all modellers and there is rarely anything that is 100% right straight out of the box.

I hope that Accurascale’s new range of high quality diesels is a success and that their (as well as Sutton Loco Works and Cavalex’s) decision to make their products P4 friendly is a commercial success for them and widens the pool of those of us working to P4 standards.

Looking forward to mine arriving soon despite the comments.

Jeremy

User avatar
Triode
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 10:20 am

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Triode » Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:40 pm

Philip Hall wrote:Seems they’ve failed.


I think that's a bit harsh.

Without wanting to jinx it, I don't think lowering the ride height will be all that complicated - certainly much less so than detailing a Bachmann model.

Assembly issues seem to be in a minority. Personally I'd have settled for moulded windscreens to make them easier and more reliable to manufacture.

I'm relatively new to P4 in the grand scheme of things, but I really appreciate the improvements modern RTR is making. Detailing older models is rewarding, but the amount of time required to assemble a fleet this way becomes prohibitive. For example, I've recently finished a Bachmann Class 40, which I flatter myself is on par with this new Deltic - but this has taken me months of on and off work, and I didn’t even spring it!

I'm at the point now where I'm perfectly happy to fix a few detail or assembly issues on a well detailed newer model, rather than completely rebuild an older one.

User avatar
John Donnelly
Web Team
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:10 pm

Philip Hall wrote: Bachmann got it nearly right, the promise of Accurascale having a real go at it and properly doing the engine justice was very good.


Accurascale have got it far more right than Bachmann, the Accurascale one is vastly superior.

The ride height and wheels are a little unfortunate but are a consequence of the overwhelming majority of their buyers wanting to run the locos round 2nd radius curves, they'd be on a hiding to nothing if the loco couldn't manage that.

User avatar
ChrisMitchell
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:18 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby ChrisMitchell » Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:44 pm

John Donnelly wrote:
Philip Hall wrote: Bachmann got it nearly right, the promise of Accurascale having a real go at it and properly doing the engine justice was very good.


Accurascale have got it far more right than Bachmann, the Accurascale one is vastly superior.

The ride height and wheels are a little unfortunate but are a consequence of the overwhelming majority of their buyers wanting to run the locos round 2nd radius curves, they'd be on a hiding to nothing if the loco couldn't manage that.


I agree totally with your points. I recall the 14 pages of improvements to the Bachmann Deltic in the Rail Express Modellers Yearbook by Jonathan Hughes. At the moment I can live with the compromises around the bogies. One day I might look to address them, but I have much higher priorities right now.

Chris

Philip Hall
Posts: 1943
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:33 pm

I admit I was a bit strong in my choice of words but for me the errors prevented me from wanting to buy the model. It’s not inexpensive but neither is it outrageously expensive. I did though expect some fundamental basics like wheel size and ride height to be correct, or at least a lot closer than previous models.

The necessity (or not) to run an engine round train set curves is something I do actually understand but I get irritated by constantly having to correct the results!

Philip

User avatar
John Donnelly
Web Team
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Thu Jun 23, 2022 7:04 pm

Philip Hall wrote:The necessity (or not) to run an engine round train set curves is something I do actually understand but I get irritated by constantly having to correct the results!


Such is the life of a P4 diesel modeller :mrgreen:

User avatar
Craig Warton
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:58 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Craig Warton » Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:52 pm

I have one on order and am waiting for it and the p4 wheel sets to ship to Australia.

The Deltic is not on my radar at all, to be honest, the only reason i purchased one is because they offered a P4 conversion set for it and if I can afford to support companies supporting us then I do.

With that in mind, I do find the undersized wheels a trifle frustrating. i hope if they do any further conversion sets they do consider making the wheels closer to scale size.

Craig W

User avatar
John Donnelly
Web Team
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:56 am

Daddyman wrote:As it is, I think mine will be going on ebay. Fortunately I ordered one of the best sellers.


Why not return it to Accurascale, they've made it absolutely clear on RMWeb that you can do so it you are not happy...

User avatar
Triode
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 10:20 am

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Triode » Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:11 am

Does anyone have any thoughts regarding uses for the undersized 12.5mm wheels?

Looking here (http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html) they may be alright for a Class 17 - 0.75mm undersized but possibly not too noticable.

User avatar
John Donnelly
Web Team
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:32 am

John Donnelly wrote:
Daddyman wrote:As it is, I think mine will be going on ebay. Fortunately I ordered one of the best sellers.


Why not return it to Accurascale, they've made it absolutely clear on RMWeb that you can do so if you are not happy...

Daddyman
Posts: 740
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:09 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Daddyman » Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:03 pm

John Donnelly wrote:
John Donnelly wrote:
Daddyman wrote:As it is, I think mine will be going on ebay. Fortunately I ordered one of the best sellers.


Why not return it to Accurascale, they've made it absolutely clear on RMWeb that you can do so if you are not happy...

(a) Because that wasn't something that was being offered from their support email , which I'm carefully distinguishing from Fran (all I was getting from support was denial there was a problem), and (b) because I could have made more money selling it on ebay than getting a refund. However, I was in touch with Fran via a public post on RM@#b this morning, something I was trying to avoid as I feared being mauled by those baying for ever lower modelling standards, and received a solution from him: he agrees they can do better on the windscreen surrounds. If they are acceptable on the replacement, I'll have a go at lowering the body height.

Incidentally, regarding the claim that the windscreen issue "can't be seen from six inches away", I did some highly unscientific experiments with a tape measure last night. I found that the 00 wheel flanges became invisible at 12 inches away, but the gap around the windscreen surrounds was still visible at 2 feet; the bogie-to-body gap was visible at 6 feet. To put it another way, the 00 disadvantage/P4 advantage (depending on how one looks at it) of large/small flanges is lost at 12 inches, while the error and/or compromise in the model still glare at considerably greater distances. I once tried modelling from 3 feet away but found my arms weren't long enough...

User avatar
John Donnelly
Web Team
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:44 pm

Daddyman wrote:Incidentally, regarding the claim that the windscreen issue "can't be seen from six inches away"


That claim (actually not a claim but a fact) was made by me and was an observation based solely on the one etch out of eight on my own Deltics that is not fitted perfectly, there was no suggestion in my post that I was referring to the example you have.

User avatar
John Donnelly
Web Team
Posts: 1091
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:46 pm

I see the guide to fitting the EM/P4 wheels is now on the website:

https://www.accurascale.com/pages/suppo ... -p4-wheels
Last edited by John Donnelly on Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “Diesel and Electric Locomotives”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ClaudeBot and 0 guests