RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

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John Donnelly
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:50 pm

Triode wrote:FYI, I've made a post regarding the P4 wheelset diameter in the Accurascale Deltic thread on the forum beginning with R. Will wait and see what they come back with.

Personally, I'm hoping they will consider supplying scale diameter wheelsets on future releases. I would rather only have the work of lowering the ride height than sourcing larger wheelsets as well.


Did you get a reply, I don't recall seeing anything?

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jim s-w
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby jim s-w » Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:37 am

John Donnelly wrote:
Did you get a reply, I don't recall seeing anything?


I gave up trying to find anything useful on there. It’s just endless posts about email notifications, delivery companies and how huge the box it comes in is!
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John Donnelly
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Sat Jun 25, 2022 6:25 am

jim s-w wrote:I gave up trying to find anything useful on there. It’s just endless posts about email notifications, delivery companies and how huge the box it comes in is!


Yeah, anything useful in that thread is now being drowned by all the useless posts unfortunately.

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:08 am

With regards to the ride height of the loco, Accurascale did say in their RMWeb thread back in January 2020 that they had wanted to have a 'variable' ride height to allow for scale distance between the body and bogies on straights but still allow for trainset curves but that they couldn't come up with a practical solution:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/139650-ac ... nt-3814394

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Jeremy Good » Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:38 pm

As frustrating as the decision to adopt undersize wheelsets for this loco is it is clearly intended to suit the majority of the customers for this model.

It is encouraging that Accurascale have been prepared to supply a drop-in wheelset to P4 standards for this model. The commercial reality is that we P4 modellers are a very small part of their market. Before they changed the website when deliveries started there was an indication of how many conversion wheelsets were sold - they had initially made 250 sets and around 150 remained available. I suspect tooling up for a run of even 100 sets of 14mm wheel would make the product rather expensive and incompatible with the "drop-in" principle behind these conversions.

We are a very small part of their market and as such it is highly unlikely that they are going to be persuaded to offer a bespoke conversion product at this stage for these relatively small numbers. The wheels appear to be on nominally 2mm axles and as such the solution may simply be to replace the wheels with correct diameter ones from Ultrascale/Gibson/Branchlines but retain the drive gear and bearings. This is not something I have, or plan to, try for now.

I think that ultimately, and regardless of how frustrating this is, putting correctly sized wheels in this loco is something we P4 modellers are going to have to work out for ourselves, if it is that important to us. The fact that we have a simple option, albeit accepting a production compromise, is however a step forward from another RTR manufacturer and at least the remainder of the model is a step forward in having a Deltic that looks like a Deltic.

I am not trying to be negative or dismissive of the obvious frustration that has resulted from this production decision but we have to be realistic that we are a small part of the hobby. I hope that the rising quality of RTR models will allow us to attract more modellers to P4 standards and also that future products allow us to move closer still to the ultimate, off-the-shelf model.

Jeremy

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby ChrisMitchell » Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:07 pm

P4 wheelsets substituted, various small bits knocked off in the process :D
Will only re-attach once my crew figures arrive and I take the body off to install

Runs very well up and down the 2.3m length of my layout.

Chris

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Crepello » Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:12 pm

I've not checked mine out much, as I've been in a race against a failing hard drive. Unpacking revealed several loose fittings beneath the model, a couple of handbrake chains were detached, and a corner footstep departed during the process. These could usefully have been packed with the user-fitted buffer beam details.

The toolmaking seems to be of a high standard, minimal parting lines, and crisp detail. The removable exhaust roof section is commendably close fitting, when you consider factors like draft angles.

So far, I've only checked one dimension, and found that somehow they've lost a scale 3 inches between the cab doors. This should be an exact scale 40ft. Maybe I'll fire up the vernier this week. Mine's an early 'as-delivered' version, but has the late tank balance pipe arrangement for extra train heating water capacity.

Those bemoaning the under-scale wheels would be more understanding if they'd got their hands grubby under the real thing, and seen the contortions the EE designers had to put the underframe members through to thread them between the wheelsets and bolster at maximum yaw. There were attached wood blocks where the backs of the flanges were at risk of contacting the central girders. To the outside, the vacuum and steam pipes had to be tucked locally into the channel of the sidesills. All this to get the loco round a 4.5 chain curve. So you'd be looking at a 4ft minimum radius with accurate P4 wheelsets.

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby jim s-w » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:19 am

Crepello wrote:
Those bemoaning the under-scale wheels would be more understanding if they'd got their hands grubby under the real thing, and seen the contortions the EE designers had to put the underframe members through to thread them between the wheelsets and bolster at maximum yaw. There were attached wood blocks where the backs of the flanges were at risk of contacting the central girders. To the outside, the vacuum and steam pipes had to be tucked locally into the channel of the sidesills. All this to get the loco round a 4.5 chain curve. So you'd be looking at a 4ft minimum radius with accurate P4 wheelsets.


Unlikely as absolutely none of that is remotely relevant to a 4mm scale model. :twisted: :twisted: :D If a 50 or the bachmann prototype deltic with scale sized wheels works in p4 then a deltic will. Simple as that. I think the main confusion is that theres little point in them doing p4 wheels if the vast majority (perhaps all) of p4 modellers are likely to fit the right diameter branchlines wheels anyway and save themselves some money in the process.
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:40 pm

Oh, My wheels haven't arrived at all, but they are in the order for some HAA and the earlier Hoppers. Odd as the Bauxite Hopper which ordered later arrived first !
I see a few models on ebay have also complained about bits dropping off.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:43 pm

Jeremy Good wrote:As frustrating as the decision to adopt undersize wheelsets for this loco is it is clearly intended to suit the majority of the customers for this model.

It is encouraging that Accurascale have been prepared to supply a drop-in wheelset to P4 standards for this model. The commercial reality is that we P4 modellers are a very small part of their market. Before they changed the website when deliveries started there was an indication of how many conversion wheelsets were sold - they had initially made 250 sets and around 150 remained available. I suspect tooling up for a run of even 100 sets of 14mm wheel would make the product rather expensive and incompatible with the "drop-in" principle behind these conversions.

We are a very small part of their market and as such it is highly unlikely that they are going to be persuaded to offer a bespoke conversion product at this stage for these relatively small numbers. The wheels appear to be on nominally 2mm axles and as such the solution may simply be to replace the wheels with correct diameter ones from Ultrascale/Gibson/Branchlines but retain the drive gear and bearings. This is not something I have, or plan to, try for now.


Jeremy


They sold out about the same time as the crews sold out
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Jeremy Good » Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:08 pm

The conversion wheelsets are still available on their website.

I understand that they suspended sales of them and the locos when the stocks arrived in the UK to allow them to deal with dispatching the orders to those who had pre-ordered either or both.

They are available to order again now at £24.95 a set.

Jeremy

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:38 am

Hardwicke wrote:I see a few models on ebay have also complained about bits dropping off.


Of the three I got, one had a couple of the nose steps loose in the box (30 seconds of actual modelling to fix) but the other two were in one piece.

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Hardwicke » Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:26 pm

Jeremy Good wrote:The conversion wheelsets are still available on their website.

I understand that they suspended sales of them and the locos when the stocks arrived in the UK to allow them to deal with dispatching the orders to those who had pre-ordered either or both.

They are available to order again now at £24.95 a set.

Jeremy

Excellent
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Hardwicke » Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:27 pm

John Donnelly wrote:
Hardwicke wrote:I see a few models on ebay have also complained about bits dropping off.


Of the three I got, one had a couple of the nose steps loose in the box (30 seconds of actual modelling to fix) but the other two were in one piece.

I might have a look at the part tonight or tomorrow to see what's needed to fix it. It is very small...
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby iak » Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:41 am

I'm being cautious in having two conversion sets.
One will get some bigger wheels, the other will remain untouched.
That way, I have a safety net in the event of any boo-boo's.
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BryanJohnson
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby BryanJohnson » Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:16 am

I've written some notes based on my experience of re-wheeling and adding the bufferbeam details to my Deltic. Nothing ground breaking, but if you want to have a read, I've added them to the bottom of the Downloads page on my website - http://www.thurstastonp4.uk/downloads.htm

Bryan

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Hardwicke
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Hardwicke » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:24 pm

Wheels arrived today along with HOP 32 AB's and HOP 24's/HUO's
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Simon Hartshorne » Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:03 pm

BryanJohnson wrote:I've written some notes based on my experience of re-wheeling and adding the bufferbeam details to my Deltic. Nothing ground breaking, but if you want to have a read, I've added them to the bottom of the Downloads page on my website - http://www.thurstastonp4.uk/downloads.htm

Bryan


Very useful, thanks for posting.

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby waveydavey » Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:41 am

After making sure it ran well on P4 wheels over the weekend on Clackmannan Goods at the DEMU Showcase I've dismantled my Deltic to fit correct sized wheels. Accurascale wheels are 12.5mm diameter and I'm replacing them with 14mm Black Beetles. To bring the ride height back down I'm going to have to reduce the ride height by 0.75mm

20220727_112542.jpg


Bogie location is achieved by a central pivot and side bearer pads on the cast chassis and a boss on the plastic bogie

20220727_111604.jpg


Cheers

David
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Modelling Clackmannanshire Railways in 1975

Porcy Mane
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Porcy Mane » Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:53 pm

Hmmm this looks interesting Davey. Maintaining some pitch freedom looks like it could provide a challenge. How high/deep are those nipples?

P

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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby waveydavey » Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:24 am

The nipples/side bearer pads are 1.5mm tall. I've removed them and replaced them with 30 thou wire to achieve the required drop.

I've also reduced the height of the central pivot by about 1mm and had to reduce the height of the plastic boss on the bogie by a smidgs too.

Photos will be along shortly.
Modelling Clackmannanshire Railways in 1975

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jjnewitt
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby jjnewitt » Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:25 am

Just out of interest David and while it's all in bits, what's the width of those drivetrains? They look quite wide in the picture.

Justin

waveydavey
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby waveydavey » Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:53 pm

The drive trains are 11mm wide Justin.

Accurascale have provided no means of restricting the side movement of the wheels so I've had to use lots of 2mm id washers to get things under control.

Cheers

David
Modelling Clackmannanshire Railways in 1975

waveydavey
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby waveydavey » Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:09 pm

Here you can see how I've modified the bogie mount.
Subsequent to this I took the 30 thou wire off and replaced it with 20 thou to lower the ride height further.

20220727_140715.jpg


I also added some 30 thou plasticard to the shelf in the chassis that the bogie retaining clip rides on .

With everything reassembled I noticed how low the axleboxes are compared to the wheels. I suspect Accurascale have scanned a bogie that doesn't have the weight of a loco on it.

20220728_133050.jpg


Cheers

David
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:14 pm

If it sits on those bits of wire at both ends you might have difficulty with track twist. Depending how super accurate your track is. If you do get trouble I would remove the wires at one end and replace by a washer on the centre pin.
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