advice request for DELTIC motorisation

[spencerman]

Hi Friends
I have a fairly convoluted request for advice, so here goes!

I am sure that some of you are familiar with www.msl-hobbies.com

That link works. I have spent quite a little time putting together the Dapol DELTIC kit. I am a steam person, but I saw this beast many times in my youth, and have a soft spot for it! I have only done the body plus all the possible fans and ventilators with brass upgrade parts, it is not complete yet, but the question of motorisation now needs to be addressed.
The solution that I pursued on the internet was to find a drive system that works on both bogies.

The answer seems to be the MSL 6-M-6 product. It is not cheap, but if it can be used it would do a good job I think.
It certainly looks good. The proprietor has also been most helpful.
The basic system is available for virtually any wheel spacings for the Co-Co set up. There are adjustable brackets on the bogie to attach cosmetic sideframes. However the product is aimed at 00 guage. David Booth (MSL) has been very helpful and would happily accept my P4 wheels and P4 2mm axles. I think I may need to invest in a B to B guage to send him! I think he will obviously discount the cost of the wheels and axles.

The answer that he gave me that I need help on is as follows:-

"The bearings are inside the gearbox, so the sideplay is limited. Normally I like to see a little sideplay, but not too much! If you want no sideplay I have 2mm washers to add."

I know this is a generic question and there is no easy answer, but what is the answer on sideplay? That is where I am snookered having only a limited practical experience in this area. Would it be better to spread his bogies to suit P4. That sounded awful but whatever...!

I would be very grateful for any feedback.

regards
Philip

[jim s-w]

How much?

Is there any springing or anything? Why dont you just canabalise a bachmann deltic for half the price?

CHeers

Jim

[Russ Elliott]

Sideplay requirement for the middle axle of a traction bogie is very small. 1mm total (i.e. 0.5mm on each side) will be sufficient.

It wasn't obvious to me from MSL's pictures what axles were driven and what the transmission between the axles of each bogie was.

Akin to Jim's comment, I'd be inclined to think first of using a stretched Bachmann 47 chassis.

[grovenor-2685]

The Bachmann 47 chassis is not a good choice, it is very hard to find useable bogies, they seem to be prone to rocking on the middle axle, I had to get two spare bogies and even the best two of the four needed a lot of work to relieve the centre axles enough to get all the 4 outer wheels on the track at the same time. I think Jim was recommending the Bachmann deltic although I am surprised he thought it cheaper considering it was an NRM special and relatively pricy. Also depends how fussy you are about the wheelbase. The prototype Deltic being unique. The 47 is closer in wheelbase than the 37/50/55 bogies. The dimensions can be compared on here http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html
Keith

[Alan Turner]

Have you considered the products of: http://www.hollywoodfoundry.com/

Alan

[jim s-w]

Hi Keith

I was thinking the original Bachmann production deltic - I didnt realise the wheelbase was different! Many derided its Bo1-1Bo drive arrangement but it works well enough (unlike the 47 as you say) Another option is the Vi-trains class 37 chassis (which is available on its own but that still has the wheelbase problem you mentioned.
Perhaps the Heljan 47? Its A1A- A1A and some of them are dirt cheap (plenty on the bay at around the £30 mark)

Cheers

Jim

[grovenor-2685]

That sounds more doable, presumably you can cut the bogie mounts out of the frame and reconnect them with a couple of brass strips. (You are not going to get that fat frame in a Kitmaster Deltic) Then sleeve the drive shafts with a bit of brass tube to get the right length and a set of Branchlines 3'7" wheels, in total about £50, well under either MSL or Hollywood prices. My concern with either of those is that you are paying premium prices for a 00 product that will probably be too rigid, and in the MSL case the position of the reduction gearboxes will be very close behind the buffer beam giving problems with clearances for couplers etc. The reduction box needs to be moved inside the end axles.
Regards
Keith

[Russ Elliott]

The Bachmann 47 chassis is not a good choice, it is very hard to find useable bogies, they seem to be prone to rocking on the middle axle, I had to get two spare bogies and even the best two of the four needed a lot of work to relieve the centre axles enough to get all the 4 outer wheels on the track at the same time.

Fair enough. The Heljan bogie doesn't have a pitch problem, but they are tied in to the chassis with those horrible anti-roll yokes. At least the Bachmann bogies have a bit more give in them in the roll plane.

[spencerman]

Hi everyone

Many thanks for all your thoughts and ideas.
The answers to some questions are as follows:-

The 2 bogies are driven on all 6 axles.
The cost is £75 which I admit is a lot, but I will get a discount for producing my own P4 wheels and axles.
The centre axle sideplay seems to be fine.
The proprietor of MSL has in fact made an 00 version of this Dapol kit, which works a treat, so maybe the clearances for the
couplings are fine.
I shall fit screwlink anyway.
I think I shall go ahead with the Ultrascale kit, and see what happens. Nothing risked, nothing gained!

If I can finish the model with a good paint job, and perhaps a little added weight, it may (dream!) end up comparable with the NRM model, we shall see. (Hopes....) As Keith has so rightly pointed out, the DELTIC prototype was unique. 4' 7" wheels, yes, but a longer bogie wheelbase then the others, 44' between bogie centre points, and 7' 2" between axles, whereas the production class 55 was 45' and 6' 9" between axles. Class 37 bogies do not match up, they are similar to the class 55. Class 47 were the closest with 7' 3" between axles.

Thanks again for the advice, maybe a new development starts here.

regards to all
Philip

[jim s-w]

Hi Phillip

So that's a difference of 0.3mm with the 47? I notice you mention there is sideplay on the center axle but what about vertical movement? In P4 if the axles on a Co-Co locomotive are all dead level with no vertical movement on the center axle it just wont work. The AWD bachmann locos and Hornby class 50 being cases in point.

Its your model of course but for me, a canabalised Heljan 47 is a no brainer.

Cheers

Jim

[spencerman]

Hi Jim
thanks for the last bit of advice. Well I have discussed this with David Booth. He says a little vertical play can be introduced no problems. The bogie is hand adjusted to requirements during assembly. I gotta have a go for this, so we shall see. If I end up as egg fried rice, well that's life... I spoke to the Ultrascale people, who said that they used to make a diesel bogie range but not many were sold, must be for the reason that the majority of modellers who mod their RTR diesels to another guage, prefer to use the original chassis. Maybe the 6-M-6 might be a down the road cure for the class 47 but I realise that it would be expensive, so that probably restricts it.
The lead time for Ultrascale seems to be many weeks at the moment so I guess this will be a summer job....
I will post news, bad or good, in due course.

best regards
Philip

[grovenor-2685]

If you are going for the 6-M-6 you don't need Ultrascale, go with the Branchlines 3' 7" wheelsets, they are very simple to apply to any chassis with 2mm axles.
Regards
Keith

[jim s-w]

Hi Phillip

The ultrascale bogies were smoother than silk. To rigid though!

Cheers

Jim

[Hardwicke]

I heard an MSL loco (LNER 6700 "Tommy") running in 'Rails' of Sheffield a few years ago. Coffee grinder sadly.

[spencerman]

Thanks for all your help. I could not avoid this idea, it just grabbed me!
Well this project is now under way.....
Ultrascale had the wheels in stock, so they came in 4 days! £2.05 an axle can't be bad.
So much for medium term budgeting! I even have the correct paints!

I am assured that it will work, if it does not, then I will be asking for compensation suggestions
and consultinng the digest, we shall just have to wait and see.
(I do not mean financial compensation of course!)

thanks to you all.

Philip

[Horsetan]

The Bachmann 47 chassis is not a good choice, it is very hard to find useable bogies, they seem to be prone to rocking on the middle axle, I had to get two spare bogies and even the best two of the four needed a lot of work to relieve the centre axles enough to get all the 4 outer wheels on the track at the same time.

Fair enough. The Heljan bogie doesn't have a pitch problem, but they are tied in to the chassis with those horrible anti-roll yokes. At least the Bachmann bogies have a bit more give in them in the roll plane.

I think the Vi-Trains 47 chassis is now available as a spare (about £58?), and apparently performs well enough, so here is another alternative that could be hacked to provide power for a Proto-Deltic. Or maybe just the individual components that go to make it up, i.e. the bogie/geartower castings, driveshafts and motor (and maybe the original "OO" wheelsets so that the final drive gears can be stripped off and installed on P4 axles?). You would then be left to decide how you want to mount the things, and how much weight to install on the underframe.

Just a thought, anyway.

[Horsetan]

.....If I can finish the model with a good paint job, and perhaps a little added weight, it may (dream!) end up comparable with the NRM model, we shall see. (Hopes....).....

As a sort of epilogue to this thread, I also recently began turning the Kitmaster ProtoDeltic into a working model. I acquired a cheap Heljan "47" chassis, and stripped it for the bare bogies (without sideframes) and drivetrain.

The Kitmaster bogie sideframes can form a frame around the Heljan bogies BUT note that the Kitmaster bogie wheelbase has shrunk, so you would need to stretch the sideframes to (almost) match the "47" bogie. I cut the sideframes just before the outer driving axles, and lengthened them by inserting 1mm pieces of U-channel, glued in with Plastic Weld. I also removed the moulded bosses, but left the brake blocks in places.

Another point to note is that the Kitmaster mouldings have several errors, e.g.

- the position of the engine room windows (and access steps up to the roof). They should all be 2mm further back.
- cabside windows are slightly too tall, and would benefit from having a 1mm strip added to the bottom sills.
- the nose cones which have a number of optical illusions and give the impression of not being quite deep enough - compare the moulded whisker chevrons with a photo of the real thing, and you'll see exactly what I mean.
- fake headlight cowling is too tall.
- the windscreen rake needs to be more pronounced.

As ever, Brian Hanson (Shawplan) is the man who can teach you how to turn some reasonable mouldings into something a bit more special.