MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Terry

MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Terry » Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:21 pm

I have recently returned to the hobby, and I have a number of kits in my stash from which to attempt my first locomotive build. The partly started 9F from way back, will wait patiently in the wings as I fancy starting off with a diesel-electric freight. So the one I'm considering is the MTK kit no DC10 of a Yeoman class 59. I am not an expert on these locomotive but do really like the look of them. In the very limited instructions, MTK recommend fitting Hornby class 58 bogies which surprised me as I would have thought class 66 bogies would be more appropriate as I understand the 66 was developed in part from the 59. The kit provides the sideframe detail etc, so I'm assuming it's down to wheel spacing? I have found both 58 and 66 bogie frame assemblies on ebay, so could easily source either. Are there any class 59 experts out there that can advise please and does anyone know if either the 58 or 66 bogies are easily adapted for P4?
Terry
aka novice in training!
Last edited by Terry on Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

alan@york
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Re: MTK class 59 kit - advice needed please

Postby alan@york » Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:47 pm

Remember that when this kit came out, alternative sources of bogies etc were much more limited than they are now.
Any instructions may be considered more of a suggestion than an absolute diktat.
I'll let others give better ideas as those 59's are too far south for me, and so I haven't got that knowledge.

a@y

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grovenor-2685
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Re: MTK class 59 kit - advice needed please

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:51 pm

I think that suggestion to use class 58 bogies probably comes from the MTK kit long predating the introduction of the class 66 let alone any models of it. I suspect the class 58 bogies will have a different wheelbase from the 59.
There are a number of different RTR 59 and 66 models that have since been produced and could supply a chassis, possibly via Ebay.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

Terry

Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Terry » Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:01 pm

Thanks for that Alan and Keith. I had wondered about the age of the MTK kit. When I bought it a good few years back, it looked old!
Terry
Last edited by Terry on Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Terry

Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Terry » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:09 pm

Well, I made up my mind to start this one, which I'm sure will be a bit of a challenge for me. The castings aren't too bad for their age, although a couple of the grills did not endure the casting process that well, so we may have to do some replacement surgery. I'm less concerned about the body build and scratch details etc, more around the steep learning curve on the technicalities of building for P4, bogie adaptations, drive motor(s) etc. But looking forward to learning as I go.

Ian Penberth of PenBits, has offered some very helpful advice, and I plan to use his class 66 sprung diesel bogie kit for this one.

The picture below shows all the castings out of the box. A fair bit of cleaning up to do methinks!

ImageIMG20210304154436 by terry.howlett, on Flickr

All comments, advice, guidance, very gratefully appreciated.

Terry
Last edited by Terry on Sat Mar 06, 2021 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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pete_mcfarlane
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Re: MTK class 59 kit - advice needed please

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:20 pm

That looks like one of the better MTK kits.

If you've not got a decent drawing, then the October 1986 Railway Modeller has one (and an article on scratchbuilding a 59 in plasticard).

Terry

Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Terry » Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:40 pm

pete_mcfarlane wrote:That looks like one of the better MTK kits.

If you've not got a decent drawing, then the October 1986 Railway Modeller has one (and an article on scratchbuilding a 59 in plasticard).


Thanks for that Pete. I had heard of that article and I must try and seek one out. I do have No. 173 of Locomotives illustrated which is on the class 59, and there are some drawings there. My MTK kit also contains drawings, although they are more sketchy on small details, not bad though.

If this looks like one of the better MTK kits, I wouldn't want to see a bad one!

Terry

Terry

Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Terry » Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:16 pm

Some progress on this one. Lots of cleaning up of castings as you might imagine.

I decided to remove the moulded on steps at the front, as the moulding quality wasn't brilliant. I'll add these from scrap brass later.

ImageIMG20210309202336 by terry.howlett, on Flickr

Each side piece has three parts, so these were aligned on a straight edge and soldered up:

ImageIMG20210311163004 by terry.howlett, on Flickr

Frames were fabricated (each has two parts) similarly:

ImageIMG20210314145054 by terry.howlett, on Flickr
ImageIMG20210314152018 by terry.howlett, on Flickr

They went together nice and square. Although the surface quality of the edges isn't brilliant, everything did come out quite square and aligned, so the fundamental design and casting was not too bad.

Everything ready for assembly:

ImageIMG20210314172110 by terry.howlett, on Flickr

Finally I managed to get the body side soldered onto the frames, using a square, many clamps and the steel blocks:

ImageIMG20210314180346 by terry.howlett, on Flickr

Roof pieces are only placed to check the body fit and alignment, which I'm pretty pleased with as this is the first white metal railway model I've worked on for almost 12 years.

ImageIMG20210314180751 by terry.howlett, on Flickr

The roof is a job for another day!

Enough for now.

Terry

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Horsetan
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Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Horsetan » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:21 pm

I bet that weighs quite a bit already! :shock:
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Terry

Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Terry » Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:02 am

Horsetan wrote:I bet that weighs quite a bit already! :shock:


It does indeed weigh a fair bit already, which hopefully will help traction, but of course could be challenging on a sprung chassis! Ian Penberth has kindly offered his help on calculating wire strength for the springs.

Terry

Terry

Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Terry » Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:21 pm

Reflecting on progress so far, and thinking around how I'm going to move forward on this one.....

The PenBits etched brass bogie unit is superb. Designed for a Bachmann 66, so I need to work through ideas for getting this into this rather basic 59. The MTK kit provides some reasonably detailed (for their age) side frames, and as you can see for now, I have tack soldered these to the sides. My next planned action would have been to fully solder these frames to the sides, in order to then solder on the roof sections, to what had become, a reasonably squared up body shell.

A checkpoint here though, as I may need to eventually remove and replace the white metal chassis frames, for RTR examples, in order to best deal with the rest of the internals. Un-soldering (is that a term?) anything other than the three light tack points from the inside of a white metal body shell with the roof attached, could be challenging!

So at this point, my lack of experience as an OO gauge modeller generally, and RTR diesels specifically, I have to stop and think.

Options:

1. As I already have a complete Hornby 59, I can use that to work out how to adapt the PenBits 66 set to this one. Seems logical. Indeed I could first try converting that one to P4 - After all I can't have too many 59's. Then I could see if the MTK could be converted with more cheaply available Hornby parts to complete this one and give me a second class 59.

2. Consider using the available Bachman 66 underbody parts (which I could obtain individually from Bachman) to complete the MTK 59. This till involves a challenging adaptation of the MTK chassis frames as provided, to fit around the core Bachman parts.

Hope all that makes sense, and please do offer up suggestions, ideas, etc. All are most welcome.

Terry

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Will L
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Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Will L » Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:49 pm

Terry wrote:...A checkpoint here though, as I may need to eventually remove and replace the white metal chassis frames, for RTR examples, in order to best deal with the rest of the internals. Un-soldering (is that a term?) anything other than the three light tack points from the inside of a white metal body shell with the roof attached, could be challenging! ...

To de solder white metal, dunk in boiling water

bécasse
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Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby bécasse » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:17 am

Will L wrote:To de solder white metal, dunk in boiling water


A technique that only works sometimes, it depends on the metallurgic composition of both the "white metal" and LMP solder alloys used. My recent experience suggests that it fails more often than it succeeds, even using pre-warming.

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Will L
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Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Will L » Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:38 am

bécasse wrote:
Will L wrote:To de solder white metal, dunk in boiling water


A technique that only works sometimes, it depends on the metallurgic composition of both the "white metal" and LMP solder alloys used. My recent experience suggests that it fails more often than it succeeds, even using pre-warming.

I admit I haven't had to do this very often but on the few occasions I've needed to, it worked for me. I agree it wont work if you used the 100 degree solder, and it might not work if you have melted a lot of white metal into the solder, it can be more like welding than soldering after all, but generally the issue is not getting it hot enough. Dunk a big bit of white metal into boiling water will take the temperature down pretty quickly and the heat wont penetrate the joint. When it doesn't work at first, that is a likely cause. You can go on applying more boiling water as it wont harm the white metal. When soldering big bits of white metal, the same issues applies, i.e. despite peoples fears, its quite hard to get a big bit up to its melting point so contamination of the solder enough to affect its melting point is unlikely.

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Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:46 am

I would certainly see adapting Penbits bogie frames to a Lima or Hornby motor bogie as a substantial challenge, they are very spacifically designed to fit the Bachmann bogies. I would first try Bachmann for a pair of 66 bogies, if they can supply then you have a good start, a chassis would be even better but will make it much more expensive, perhaps look for one on eBay with a wrecked body. Whatever you do though, enjoy.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

Terry

Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Terry » Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:45 pm

Thanks both Will and David for the de soldering suggestions. I might yet need to try that.

Keith, I was aware that the PenBits chassis kit was designed around the 66, and I think your suggestion of getting hold of appropriate Bachman parts is the best for now. Various means of doing that are underway! I do plan to look at my Hornby 59 in some depth as at some point I would like to convert that to P4. Maybe that will have to stay rigid though.

Thanks again everyone for your helpful support. I realise I have picked a very challenging first subject for P4, in just about every way, but as Keith suggested, I am enjoying it!

Will report back when I've made some tangible further progress.

Terry

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Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Phil O » Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:53 pm

For big bits of whitemetal, which don't de solder when dunking in boiling water, I have an old saucepan which I put the job in and bring to the boil, so far it's not yet failed me. Famous last words.

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Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:35 pm

The bible on low melt soldering is here, http://www.norgrove.me.uk/Robbo.htm
He does recommend tinning the iron with normal solder first. NB this is under soldering irons in the tools section near the end.
Regards
Keith
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Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:06 am

Terry wrote:I do plan to look at my Hornby 59 in some depth as at some point I would like to convert that to P4. Maybe that will have to stay rigid though.


I have not converted a class 59 yet but have done many other 37s, usually Bachmann, 47s which are usually Heljan, and some Hornby 50s and 60s. Nearly all of these run perfectly well with a simple wheel replacement using 14mm Black Beetle coach wheels and the original gears. The wheels can usually be obtained from Branchlines. We have one Bachmann class 37 which is not right yet and one trick passed to me by Phil Eames of Calcutta Sidings fame is to use Gibson wheels on the middle axle which are slightly smaller in diameter than the Black beetle ones.

Terry Bendall

Terry

Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Terry » Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:05 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:The bible on low melt soldering is here, http://www.norgrove.me.uk/Robbo.htm
He does recommend tinning the iron with normal solder first. NB this is under soldering irons in the tools section near the end.


Thanks Keith. That link is great, have lost myself in it already!

Terry Bendall wrote:
Terry wrote:I do plan to look at my Hornby 59 in some depth as at some point I would like to convert that to P4. Maybe that will have to stay rigid though.


I have not converted a class 59 yet but have done many other 37s, usually Bachmann, 47s which are usually Heljan, and some Hornby 50s and 60s. Nearly all of these run perfectly well with a simple wheel replacement using 14mm Black Beetle coach wheels and the original gears. The wheels can usually be obtained from Branchlines. We have one Bachmann class 37 which is not right yet and one trick passed to me by Phil Eames of Calcutta Sidings fame is to use Gibson wheels on the middle axle which are slightly smaller in diameter than the Black beetle ones.

Terry Bendall


Thanks Terry. All Diesels are of interest to me, so some helpful ideas there!

Terry

Terry

Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Terry » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:00 am

Limited progress on this one of late. Other projects and an arm injury are to blame!

All three roof sections are now soldered in place:

ImageIMG20210413193319 by terry.howlett, on Flickr

Things are still looking pretty rough, and the next job is to get the cab ends on.

I acquired one of these off good old ebay:

ImageIMG20210413193548 by terry.howlett, on Flickr

As to the question of how it will live inside, I need to come up with a definitive design for the underside and internals - A combination of RTR components will figure in the plan with the core chassis courtesy of PenBits. I also see some scratch building playing a part, but not clear yet exactly how!

As you can see this is the void I'm having work out how to fill...

ImageIMG20210413193427 by terry.howlett, on Flickr

Regarding the body shell, once I'm done with all soldering, Milliput is the solution for much minor filling, refinement and reinstatement of detail.

Meanwhile other projects are beginning to form in my return to this absorbing hobby. The Dave Bradwell 9F chassis arrived recently.........

Terry

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Will L
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Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Will L » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:36 am

Terry wrote:...Regarding the body shell, once I'm done with all soldering, Milliput is the solution for much minor filling, refinement and reinstatement of detail...

Don't forget the possibly of filling holes with low melt and sculpting that back. As it is similar in texture to the white metal it is often easier to deal with than something like Milliput that sets very hard. One of the interesting things about modelling in white metal is the fact that many faults and areas of damage can be re modelled effectively in low melt. Practice on spare bits is of course a good idea but mastering this will improve your soldering technique as it all about controlling the amount of heat you put into the bit your working on.

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Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby jim s-w » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:04 pm

To give a visual example of Wills suggestion here’s a poorly cast whitemetal kit

Image

And after a spot of low melt filling and filing

Image

Jim
Jim Smith-Wright

http://www.p4newstreet.com

Over thinking often leads to under doing!

Terry

Re: MTK class 59 kit - Let the challenge commence.

Postby Terry » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:20 pm

Will L wrote:
Terry wrote:...Regarding the body shell, once I'm done with all soldering, Milliput is the solution for much minor filling, refinement and reinstatement of detail...

Don't forget the possibly of filling holes with low melt and sculpting that back. As it is similar in texture to the white metal it is often easier to deal with than something like Milliput that sets very hard. One of the interesting things about modelling in white metal is the fact that many faults and areas of damage can be re modelled effectively in low melt. Practice on spare bits is of course a good idea but mastering this will improve your soldering technique as it all about controlling the amount of heat you put into the bit your working on.


Thanks Will. I'm practicing that art first, to see what I can achieve before finishing the solder work. The first end went together this evening, and there were some sizeable gaps to fill against the roof section, but it all seemed to work ok ........ in the end!

jim s-w wrote:To give a visual example of Wills suggestion here’s a poorly cast whitemetal kit

And after a spot of low melt filling and filing

Jim


And thanks Jim. That is certainly a convincing example of how it should be done!

pics of the 59 with ends on, will follow soon.

Terry

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Hardwicke
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Re: MTK class 59 kit - advice needed please

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:56 am

alan@york wrote:those 59's are too far south for me,.
a@y

One reached Retford on a railtour to Worksop Open Day once. It must have gone out or arrrived from the North, as it ran round it's train.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".


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