Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Colin Parks

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Colin Parks » Sat Jul 19, 2014 9:18 am

Hi Keith,

I note what you say about the Branchlines wheels. For my own ends, I would be more interested in the conventional 14mm dia. on a single pin-point axle, this type would be suitable for converting my EMU fleet.
I must say I have enjoyed watching the videos of the trains running on your layout.

All the best,

Colin

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:26 am

Colin,
I believe the 14mm stub axle sets I used for 10001 are produced specially for the Bachmann EMU bogies that also use stub axles, the standard wheelsets will do a great job for the trailing bogies, and also for other types of motor bogie using 2mm axles where you can transfer the gears to the new axle. I have done that for the class 20 and also for DMUs (using the 12mm wheels).
Keith
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Keith
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Colin Parks

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Colin Parks » Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:46 pm

Hi Keith,

As you say, the standard wheel sets are the ones I would need. It is just a case of finding an alternative to Ultrascale for now. When I first contemplated moving to P4, I was advised to standardise on one manufacturer's wheels, but given the time scale of their delivery, I won't be Ultrascale for ordinary 14mm wheels. I note that you have used 12mm BB wheels, which are just what I need for my 4 CIG's non-powered bogies. Will have to investigate the full BB range of parts...

Al the best,

Colin

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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:09 pm

since Branchlines does not update his web prescence you only find out about his products by word of mouth or by contacting him directly, but the 'standard' wheelsets are listed on the maker's website (Steam Era) and by Charlie Petty.
Keith
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Keith
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:49 pm

Hi Keith,

I am so pleased you took the time to post this on the Fourum. My son Dave and I were down at Scalefour West at the weekend with Burntisland and while we were there Dave went off and bought a model of 10000 without checking whether there was a set of wheels available for the beast. Dave assumes his dad can overcome any difficulties, but I must admit I like most people prefer the easy way if it is possible. Vaguely remembering a short bit by editor James in the snooze I looked up the Fourum to find your blow by blow account, this was on Tuesday afternoon. After a quick read I ordered a set of wheels from Brian (Branchlines). Over the weekend I had bought several of his gearboxes from him, If only I had known ! Your photo of the packet meant I had the correct description to order the wheels. The wheels arrived this morning and following your guide I had the locomotive running by teatime. :)
It is a while since I contributed to the Fourum, but I have been asked to add to the bit I did on building chassis by a certain Mr Chambers as well as covering developments on my new layout. It is about time I covered the building of the Barclay tanks, so over the next few months I will do that.
I noted your comment Keith about whether people use the information provided on the Fourum, so I thought you would appreciate a comment. Thank you for the thread it saved me much valuable time.
One or two small practical additions. I tend to have difficulty with the things that are taken for granted - taking the loco apart for instance. The detail is very fine particularly on this one. In the process of extracating the wheels from the bogies I managed to break off a small piece of plastic that forms part of the brake rigging. This I repaired using my new favourite glue. Loctite Superglue Power Flex. The advantage of this glue is that it can take shocks and seems to have a rubbery quality when set.

The second thing damaged was one of the fine wires to the lights which took a bit of close examining before I found it and finally when pulling the wheels of the original wheelsets to get at the gears how do you take the gear off the second wheel without damage to the gear and without a gear puller? I have added a couple of photos below to show How I managed to do this for others who are inspired to have a go. 10000 is to be used on our Royal Scot set on our Grayrigg layout at home.

10000 has been test run and seems promising, we are looking forward to running it downstairs.
Allan

DSC03979.JPG


DSC03976.JPG


DSC03977.JPG
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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:51 pm

Pleased to be of help Alan, as it happens the first bogie I took out I had that exact same bit of brake rigging fall off, took more care over the other one, but I must admit I have not bothered to put it back yet as its invisible for all practical purposes. I used pretty much the same technique as you for the gears as the pin on my puller was to short to go far enough through the gear bore, the only problem with the pliers and hammer technique is finding the gear in the carpet afterwards so rig up a suitable catcher.
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Keith
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iak
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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby iak » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:31 pm

Fascinating thread Keith.
I think a call to Branchlines is required :thumb
Now all I need to do is wait for the black twins to appear.
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:19 am

Allan Goodwillie wrote:how do you take the gear off the second wheel without damage to the gear and without a gear puller?


I have not converted a model of 10000 yet but my normal practice for removing gears is to hold the gear firmly between thumb and first finger and pull! It usually works. An alternative method is to support the wheel on two pieces of rectanguar metal resting on the bench so that there is a sufficiently large gap beneth the gear and then push down with pliers on the end of the gear.

Terry Bendall

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:15 pm

Now we have had a chance to test the locomotive on the layout (or could it be the other way around) I discovered that the locomotive was unhappy with certain aspects of the track. :( It has a long wheelbase and no springing as such. We have a fair number of deisel types including class 40's etc. but none of similar fixed wheelbase. Where I found we were having difficulty was on the lead up to the superelevated curves on our Grayrigg layout. Grayrigg had the highest elevations anywhere on the west coast mainline.

A little experimentation followed. It turned out that if we took the centre wheels out altogether (this left one driving and one carrying on each bogie) it took the curves OK. I was a little puzzled by this at the time. :? This meant that the long wheelbase itself was not the problem. Our solution was not to try to spring the middle wheels or compensate any of them in some way - I was worried about loosing the gear mesh geometry - but I took the original centre wheels (the OO ones, if I made a mess of them then nothing lost) and put them in the lathe turning them down flat. I took the flange off first then turned the rest down to be level with the outer edge of the wheels. I regauged the wheels so that the outer rim of the wheels matched the width of the S4 wheels.

The axles more or less go all the way back into their holes in the gear. Once they were fitted the locomotive was happy with the superelevation the centre wheels turn as they are powered as are the others. Turning down the wheels left enough of a small gap below the wheel that it stops the centre wheels taking over and rocking the bogie - or I assume that is what is happening. Once the wheels were painted black the solution is virtually unnoticeable from normal viewing angles given the thickness of bogie sides etc. :) I should imagine turning off the flange etc. off the Branchlines wheels would also do the same job and leave the centre wheels the same thickness of the outer wheels. I don't mind the extra thickness of the centre wheels, it is not noticeable unless your locomotive is upside down and it gives them a slightly better chance of track holding. I am sure someone will give me an understanding as to what is happening with the centre wheels.

When the 9F s were introduced one of the wheelsets had the flange only taken off the wheels, the coneing remained on the wheels. When tried out in the same yards as the LNWR 0-8-0 s which also had a pair of flangeless wheels, they kept coming off the track. The difference was the coneing. Once this was removed as well as the flange from the 9Fs all was well.

Just a little technical item to finish with. My lathe is rather old and I found that the half axle wanted to come out no matter how much I tightened it up. I was worried about the inevitable damage which would occur to the axle as I tried to turn down the flange and cut the wheel cone away, if it slipped from the chuck jaws. In the end I turned the end of a piece of 1/8th axel material flat and used that set against the wheel boss in such a way that the wheel was not going anywhere during the cutting cycle. This can be sett on the lathe leaving hands free for the turning. See the photograph attached.

DSC03980.JPG


Allan
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Andrew Ullyott
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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Andrew Ullyott » Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:29 am

I've heard that some of the 6 wheel all axles driven bogies on Bachman logos can suffer from rocking on the middle axle, presumably due to the housings or bearings not being at the same level. The solution I've heard of is to use 12.5mm Branchlines wheels on the outer axles and Kean Maygib ones on the centre which I think are 12.0mm.

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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Terry Bendall » Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:10 am

Andrew Ullyott wrote:The solution I've heard of is to use 12.5mm Branchlines wheels on the outer axles and Kean Maygib ones on the centre which I think are 12.0mm.


This is a solution that I heard from Phil Eames of Calcutta Sidings fame a few weeks back. I thought that it was a very good idea. Some of the Bachmann six wheel bogies are known to have the centre axle a bit lower than the outer ones so this is one solution to the problem. Another tip from Phil is to put the loco on a flat surface before you start any conversion work and try to slide a piece of paper under each wheel. This should show up where a wheel is higher than the rest and because it is done before the wheels are changed will show that any discrepencies that may be found later are not due to the chassis. The engineering minded will use a feeler gauge but a piece of paper or thin shim of brass sheet will do the same thing.

Terry Bendall

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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:43 am

I've heard that some of the 6 wheel all axles driven bogies on Bachman logos can suffer from rocking on the middle axle,

As discussed in this very topic!
http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3596#p30813

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Keith
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:03 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:
I've heard that some of the 6 wheel all axles driven bogies on Bachman logos can suffer from rocking on the middle axle,

As discussed in this very topic!
http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3596#p30813

Regards
Keith


Thanks Keith, I had done a check (similar to Terry's suggestion using a piece of plate glass to see if all was square on the bogies and could see that all was true before starting.) I do like the suggestion of using different company's wheels with the smaller diameter ones being used in the centre pair. Providing there is some sideways play they should go through points OK, despite being of a lesser diameter, the check rails should still keep things in place, although they may engage slightly later than a full depth wheel resulting in a slightly clunky feel at speed, but this may not be too visible. I would be interested to know from anyone who has already used this set up and filmed their loco going through a points complex. Dave has a couple of 47's needing converted sometime.

Allan

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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:21 am

I have a Penbits kit for my 47, waiting on its round tuit. Very close to the top of the pile now :)
Keith
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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Hardwicke » Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:04 am

Does anyone know if 10001 has been produced in green, orange lining with 5P5F classification? I can see that 10000 is available in that livery. Can I buy that and remove one of the numbers? Are they separate fittings or moulded in. I know 10000 and 10001 were different but without access to the Wild Swan books at the moment, what were the differences? The Bachmann looks very slightly better but apparently the Dapol one is the better mechanically.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:28 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:I have a Penbits kit for my 47, waiting on its round tuit. Very close to the top of the pile now :)
Keith

Penbits kit has been fitted to the 47, problem sorted. Ian's instructions are very thorough so no need to repeat them.
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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby ianpenberth » Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:44 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:Penbits kit has been fitted to the 47, problem sorted.

Good to hear that, Keith.

Production etching for a similar kit for the Bachmann LMS Twins is in progress and the frets should be with me soon (I expect them to be the same price as the 47 kit - £37.50). I am working on the instructions - will give a nod on here when they're up on the website, likewise when the kits are ready to go.

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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 12:09 am

Does anyone know if 10001 has been produced in green, orange lining with 5P5F classification? I can see that 10000 is available in that livery. Can I buy that and remove one of the numbers? Are they separate fittings or moulded in.

My 10001 is green, small yellow panels and white side stripes, the numbers are moulded in.
Regards
PS Bachmann are showing this one in stock
http://www.bachmann.co.uk/image_box.php?image=images1/branchline/31-995.jpg&cat_no=31-995&info=0&width=650&height=233
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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Hardwicke » Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:48 pm

I've found that one but 10000 and 10001 were not identical twins. It looks like no one is going to produce 10001 in early BR green. Yet.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Hardwicke » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:31 pm

Happy purchase
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Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby PhilipT » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:54 pm

I've no experience of the Branchlines P4 wheels but when I did the same EM conversion a few years ago I found that assembling the wheels onto the gear/muff gave a BB dimension which was 0.5mm greater than it should have been. I was told by Brian at Branchlines that these were intended originally for Bachmann EMUs which I guess may have a slightly narrower gear/muff.The remedy was to remove 0.25mm from each side of the gear/muff.

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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:21 pm

Regards
Keith
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Hardwicke
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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Hardwicke » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:49 pm

The Penbits instructions mention the same.
Ordsall Road (BR(E)), Forge Mill Sidings (BR(M)), Kirkcliffe Coking Plant (BR(E)), Swanage (BR (S)) and Heaby (LMS/MR). Acquired Thorneywood (GNR). Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Bernie
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Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Bernie » Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:45 am

Keith,
thank you for your effort in documenting the above, very useful! My long stalled penbits conversion of LMS1000 has blinked at the light of the ‘workbench’ today. So your missive, found upon an idle wander through the forum, clears up a lot!
I hope the new year finds you in good stead.

Bernie


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