Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:23 am

Looking at my new 10001 with a view to conversion I found it comes equipped with stub axles, 2mm dia through the bearings and 1.5 where they fit into the gear/muff. Current collection being through the bearings on 4 of the 6 axles. Establishing that AGW were not planning to produce I was considering using Branchlines coach wheels, drilling out the gears to fit the 2mm axles and replacing the pick ups. However conversation with Mike Ainswort on the Society stand at Watford revealed that he had used wheels with stub axles supplied by Branchlines for the Bachmann Southern EMUs.

So now I am in possession of this:
branchlines-1.jpeg

I will try and take pics as I go along, probably over the next week or so.
Keith

User avatar
John Donnelly
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby John Donnelly » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:42 am

Have you run the loco at all yet Keith? I ask as it uses the same pickup arrangement as the new 40s which are getting a load of bad press with regards to the pickup arrangement (I replaced them completely as mine was useless out of the box)

John

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:01 pm

I have run it up and down on a straight bit of track, it did hesitate a bit.
Looking at the way the bearings contact the pick up strips I did think that it looked as though contact would not be all that reliable, and the centre axles don't connect at all, so it is part of my plan to add some additional wipers to run on the back of each wheel, looks to be simple to do, will find out on due course.
Keith
PS Does that mean the new 40 has 12 wheel drive?

User avatar
John Donnelly
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby John Donnelly » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:08 pm

Yes, it does have 12 wheel drive but only 8 wheel pickup as the centre axles have no pickups...

John

Terry Bendall
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:46 am

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:17 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:Does that mean the new 40 has 12 wheel drive?


I heard over the weekend that Bachmann have been having problems with the running of the Class 40. Apparently the grease used is non conductive which causes problems with the current flow. The models are having to be stripped down, cleaned and conductive grease applied.

Terry Bendall

User avatar
John Donnelly
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby John Donnelly » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:46 am

Huge problems - one retailer I know has had a return rate of over 50%...

This was an official response from Bachmann posted over on RMWeb:

Class 40 locomotive

32-475DC No. 40141 in blue livery with split head code boxes.

We have undertaken an internal investigation on a selection of blue Class 40 locomotives today. The locomotive affected carries catalogue number 32-475DC.

Although not evident on every model checked – two factors were found to be affecting performance on some examples – and it could be one or the other (or in the odd case both) that can be the cause.

1 - The Gear Tower

The bogie pivot screw may be too tight and may require slacking off. To do this it will be necessary to remove the body.

2 – Grease

The grease used for some reason is getting into the wheel bearings and this is affecting the pick-ups. This applies to the leading and trailing wheels only on each bogie.

Cleaning out the grease from the bearings with a cotton bud will remove the offending grease. To make sure, cleaning fluid (e.g. Isopropyl Alcohol or cassette head / DVD cleaner), can be used to ensure that the bearings are totally clean.

Lubrication can then be carried out using electrically conductive oil or grease to replace the removed grease.


This does not appear to have solved the problem in a large number of cases (it didn't for mine) but the fitting of additional pickups does seem to be a big help, certainly having changed the pickups on mine to act as wipers and adding them to the centre axle as well has mine running sweetly.

The CV settings aren't the best out of the box either - mine, after the pickup mods runs at a crawl on setting 1 of the controller but takes off like a rat up a drain pipe when upped to 2.

John

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:09 pm

I have now managed a few photos of the tear down, and got more of an idea of what needs to be done. The comments above suggested a look at the electrics would be useful.
The loco has a large circuit board on top dwarfing the DCC decoder, provision is made for lighting and a speaker (not fitted). There is no wiring connecting the circuit board to either bogies or body shell everything relies on spring contacts. The motor wires are held to the circuit board by the common push on plastic clips and are not soldered.
chassis-1.jpg
chassis-1.jpg (31.94 KiB) Viewed 8726 times

The underside view of the chassis shows the contacts under the circuit board that bear on the bogie contact strips. The weight is carried by the centre pivot and the contact plates are sprung onto the ends of the bogie collector strips, this connection looks as though it will be reliable and not having to mess with a pair of wire from the bogie is good.
chassis-2.jpg
chassis-2.jpg (57.43 KiB) Viewed 8721 times

The contact between these collector strips and the stub axles looks a little more worrying, there is no spring in the contact with the end axle bearings and the centre axle is not included in the pick up so any rock on the centre axle will reduce pick up. As suggested above I will add wipers direct to the wheelbacks of all wheels, the contact can be clse to the axle so there will be minimal drag.
bogie-3.jpg
bogie-3.jpg (70.51 KiB) Viewed 8721 times

Keith

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:34 pm

A few more pics of the bogie in course of dismantling. First the complete bogie as it drops out.
bogie-1.jpg
bogie-1.jpg (74.57 KiB) Viewed 8719 times

Then an underside view showing an end and centre axle, the double groove in the end bearings provides one seating on the plastic chassis frame and a second groove seating on the collector strip. The axles are over one side showing the side play that measured at 1.2mm, ie +/-0.6mm for each axle, leaves plenty of room for P4 wheelsets but shows that something needs to be done to limit the sideplay to avoid the outside of the P4 wheels continually rubbing on the sideframes.
bogie-2.jpg
bogie-2.jpg (80.61 KiB) Viewed 8719 times

The final pic in this section shows a coach wheelset being used to look at the brake shoe setting, they almost got it right, it will be perfect for EM but will probably rub on the flange in P4 and may need a bit of scraping down.
bogie-4.jpg
bogie-4.jpg (62.72 KiB) Viewed 8719 times

Keith

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:52 pm

Now we get to the wheelsets, first up was to measure up the Branchlines offering. The stub axles are 2mm dia in the wheel and bearing area and 1.5mm dia where they fit into the gear muff. The stub axles are 8.7 long, hence 17.4 of the back to back is taken up and only 0.3 mm left for the insulation gap, enough but a drop of loctite in there will help ensure it remains a gap. The 2mm portion of the stub is 6mm long and the gear muff also measure 6mm wide, so assembled as is the back to back will be 18 mm. All 12 wheels in my batch are identical within the tolerance of my calipers. Mike Ainsworth did warn me, at Watford, that he had to shave a little of each side of the gears to get the BB correct and it looks as though I will have to do the same. (these stub axles were designed for the EMUs which maybe have a slightly smaller gear).
First PIC is the Bachmann wheelset as removed, then broken into its constituent parts.
wheelset-1.jpg
wheelset-1.jpg (29.25 KiB) Viewed 8717 times

wheelset-2.jpg
wheelset-2.jpg (22.07 KiB) Viewed 8717 times

Then we have the P4 wheelset as yet unassembled, as I don't want to assemble and dissassemble more than the minimum number of times I need to sort ot the sideplay containment before putting it together, and that will have to wait for another workshop session.
wheelset-3.jpg
wheelset-3.jpg (32.73 KiB) Viewed 8717 times

Keith

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:01 pm

Have checked my washer collection and located enough 0.5mm washers to fit between the gear and bearings on the outer axles which should leave a comfortably small amount of sideplay, also some 0.3mm washers that will do for the centre axles and allow a bit more freedom for curves, debateable if its worth fitting the latter as the centre axle can only move within the limits set by the outer axles (unless it derails), I'll check the sideplay needed on my ruling curve before deciding.
Keith

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:02 pm

OK, now to start putting it back together, first up the wheelsets. With just a quarter of a mm to remove from the gears I tried with a file and a two or three gentle strokes on each side did the trick, then push them gently together closing it up on the back to back gauge. The fit seemed pretty firm so for now I have not added any loctite, will see how it goes.
wheelset-4.jpg
wheelset-4.jpg (97.97 KiB) Viewed 8569 times

Next the pickups, i decided to add wipers for the centre axle and then to include the end axles as well as it was little extra effort and avoided reliance on the fit of the pick up strips in the wheel bearings. The pick up strips just unscrew from the bogie frame so the soldering can be done well away from the plastic frame, just take good care of the tiny screws, I had to retrieve one from the carpet, the god must have been in a good mood.
pickups-1.jpg
pickups-1.jpg (35.95 KiB) Viewed 8569 times

pickups-2.jpg

Once the pickup strips are screwed back into place the wheelsets can be pressed into place, needs a bit of care to ensure the pickup strips sit in their grooves properly, and make sure the correct set are in the centre positions, they have different bearings, and I also used thinner spacing washers for them.
bogie-6.jpg
bogie-6.jpg (76.6 KiB) Viewed 8569 times

bogie-7.jpg
bogie-7.jpg (50.03 KiB) Viewed 8569 times

Next up will be to fit the bogies to the chassis, test run, if OK then paint the wheels before putting the sideframes back.
Keith

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:35 pm

Sorry about the delay, domestic issues got in the way,here is the chassis with bogies attached.
chassis-3.jpg

And via Youtube running on the test track, so far so good, next a bit of paint and it can all go together.

Keith

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:02 pm

I suppose 600 views means something, but not a single comment for or against, does anyone find it useful? Or am I wasting my time?
Keith

David Knight
Posts: 630
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:02 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby David Knight » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:39 pm

Always interesting Keith, perhaps everyone is just so used to you doing a good job that it doesn't seem unusual :thumb .
That said, I do have a question; how are the 6 wheeled bogies over pointwork? This seems to be the sticking point (no pun intended) with other Co-Co units.

Cheers,

David

DaveHarris
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:08 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby DaveHarris » Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:42 pm

Thanks for your 'blow by blow' account of this conversion. Extremely helpful, even though i have no intention of purchasing one of these . :)

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:10 pm

how are the 6 wheeled bogies over pointwork? This seems to be the sticking point (no pun intended) with other Co-Co units.

It has had a brief tour round the layout in the skeletal condition shown above, managed OK. I have not had problems with pointwork as such but the rigid 6 wheel bogie is vulnerable to minor level problems, especially any short hump in the track that will lift the middle wheelsets. [same as rigid 6 wheel steamers]. On my class 50 I opened out the bearings for the centre axle as much as I dared, you have to watch the gear mesh doing this, but it does make it more surefooted. This one the bogies are straight and true but there is no real scope in the gears to loosen the centre axle any more, the bearings are a loosish fit to start with and it seems to be Ok. My Bachmann Cl 47 on the other hand had bogies that rock on the centre axle as I reported previously,

they would not hold the track at all with P4 wheelsets. I got two replacement bogies, all had this problem to some degree so I chose the best two and fettled the bearings as much as possible, its still not good enough however so I have a springing kit for it waiting.
Keith

User avatar
John Donnelly
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby John Donnelly » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:15 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote: My Bachmann Cl 47 on the other hand had bogies that rock on the centre axle as I reported previously, they would not hold the track at all with P4 wheelsets. I got two replacement bogies, all had this problem to some degree so I chose the best two and fettled the bearings as much as possible, its still not good enough however so I have a springing kit for it waiting.


I've got exactly the same issue with the Bachmann Class 37 one of which is now going to get Penbits sprung bogies. ViTrains 37s on the other hand run no bother at all...

John

Terry Bendall
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:46 am

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:22 am

John Donnelly wrote:I've got exactly the same issue with the Bachmann Class 37


I have converted quite a lot of Bachman class 37s using Black Beetle 14mm wheels and almost all work fine first time. One or two have suffered from a centre axle that is lower than the rest and I usually solve this by paring away a bit of the top of holes the the bearings fit in. This seems to solve the problem.

Terry Bendall

User avatar
John Donnelly
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby John Donnelly » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:55 pm

Terry Bendall wrote:I usually solve this by paring away a bit of the top of holes the the bearings fit in. This seems to solve the problem.


That's what I'm planning on one of the other 37s I have.

John

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:50 pm

so far so good, next a bit of paint and it can all go together.

OK so it is all back together, still not decided on the couplings so just pushed an NEM version Kadee into the socket as a temporary measure to allow some haulage
Keith
converted-1.JPG

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:30 pm

A short video to show it does work after this treatment!


and Will asked for broadside shots.
DSCF2024.JPG

DSCF2032.JPG

Keith

User avatar
Andy W
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 8:11 am

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Andy W » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:17 pm

Looking good Keith.
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

User avatar
Colin Parks
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:44 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Colin Parks » Fri Jul 18, 2014 12:38 pm

I have just found your most interesting topic after reading about it via the latest S4News.

Noting that the work on your LMS Twin conversion seems to have been done some months ago, how have you got on with the fit and stability of the BB wheels on their Bachmann axles/gears? With Ultrascale products in such short supply, it is useful to know of an alternative supplier of good quality 14mm dia. wheels.

All the best,

Colin

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:51 pm

Since putting it together I have been very busy with other things and have not had time for running the railway so I can't claim any long service experience as yet. On the other hand the wheelsets went together well and are a good fit so I don't anticipate any problems. As the wheels come ready mounted on their stub axles, there is no fitting of wheel to axle, just pushing the stubs into the gear muff, the accuracy is such that their is no discernable wobble. I favour these Branchlines/Steam Era wheels for 3 ft and 3ft 6 disc wheels, unfortunately they have not done 3ft 9. I do note that recent production for normal (rather than stub axle) wheelsets has changed from steel axles to brass, I suspect lobbying from KD coupling users, but I doubt it will matter in practice.
Keith

Terry Bendall
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:46 am

Re: Bachmann LMS twin conversion.

Postby Terry Bendall » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:03 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:I do note that recent production for normal (rather than stub axle) wheelsets has changed from steel axles to brass,


Brian Osbourne of Branchlines told me some time ago that the reason for the change from steel to brass axles was because Black Beetle were unable to buy the size of steel needed in the quantity they needed at a sensible price. I have found that the brass axles need more care in handling. I now have some suitable size silver steel and when necessary make my own axles.

Terry Bendall


Return to “Diesel and Electric Locomotives”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest