Hornby 2 BIL

doktorstamp
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Hornby 2 BIL

Postby doktorstamp » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:36 pm

Well mine has just arrived, and I should very much like to convert it to P4 standard, however I confess to wanting someone else to provide the information, not wanting, in my exuberance, or ignorance to damage it getting it apart for the conversion.

regards

Nigel

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Re6/6
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby Re6/6 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:34 pm

I'll be looking into it soon Nigel. There are three of DRAG's membership will be doing their's in due course!

We'll report back.
John

JFS
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby JFS » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:54 pm

Already done mine and it was pretty easy.

Getting the thing to bits is described in Hornby's instructions. And it is a real tussle which people with fours hands are best placed to tackle. The driver's side lights came adrift as they are on a separate moulding which soon parts company with the body shell.

I used Exactoscale wheels for the trailers - they are narrow enough in the tread to go between the frame with minimum trimming. So that is just a straight replacement. Of course the brake blocks need amputating (or re-mounting wider if you wish). This job is exactly the same as for the Maunsel LH vehicles - practice on one of those first if you need to build your confidence - the job has already been described in the press, and they are a lot cheaper than a 2Bil even these days.

For the Motor bogie, I used Ultrascale wheels - the long boss means that these can just replace the existing Hornby wheels - these are a tight fit on the axle, but once you have pulled them off, the Utrascale wheels can just be pushed on the existing axle to gauge. A fair bit of plastic needs to come off the insides of the frames however, and the pickups need a tweak to reach the new wheels.

I don't know how everyone else has found it, but mine runs like dream - extremely smooth and quiet (using a Pentroller).

My hot tip for SR EMU fans - if you have a Bachmann 2 EPB, replace the glazing with Extreme Etchings Lazerglaze - the job was much easier than I expected and the difference is amazing!

Best Wishes,

Howard.

williambarter
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby williambarter » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:48 pm

My plan is to use the underframes to go under bodies of the early Eastern section 3-car sets for which I am working up etchings (not quite sure what to do about the trailer yet!) . So if anyone wrecks a Hornby body whilst pulling them apart, it'll be worth asking if I've got a spare.

William

JFS
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby JFS » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:31 am

William,

Interesting plan - put me down for any spare bodies you have please!

I am building a Roxey 2NOL and I was planning to use a Tenshodo SPUD but the thing has a top speed of about 2 million MPH and I am now looking to substitute a Hornby motor bogie - assuming their availability as spares.

Have you / has anyone tried adapting the Replica motorised underframe to a standard SR design? It does look rather nice.

When you say not sure about the trailers - are you meaning an all-steel trailer? Such a thing used to be available from Blacksmith but not sure where that path leads to currently. If you are talking about a wooden trailer, Roxey do one - but not to the 1925 new build design - but then in post-war days anything could be seen with anything else.

Are you going to post details of your results with your etchings please?

Good luck,

Howard.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:34 am

JFS wrote: Such a thing used to be available from Blacksmith


The Blacksmith 4mm range is now sold by Coopercraft. See their entry in the guide to Scaleforum 2012

JFS wrote:then in post-war days anything could be seen with anything else.


The current issue of Back Track contains a very interesting article with the title of Suburban South London which gives some useful information about the formation of early post WW2 suburban stock including such delights as mounting of former six wheel loco hauled coaches on longer underframes and the conversion of the LBSC overhead electric stock to third rail units. Some of these apparently lasted until 1960.

I expect most of the inmformation is available in books elesewhere but it is still useful as an overview.

Terry Bendall

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Re6/6
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby Re6/6 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:44 am

JFS wrote:William,
I am now looking to substitute a Hornby motor bogie - assuming their availability as spares.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-X6575- ... 48534b10c9
John

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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby JFS » Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:43 pm

Terry Bendall wrote:The Blacksmith 4mm range is now sold by Coopercraft. See their entry in the guide to Scaleforum 2012


Terry,

Coppercraft currently only list one solitary 4mm ex Blacksmith kit and, ironically (given the size of the former range) it is a Bulleid tin Hal which is as close as you can get to an all steel trailer without it actually being one! I would like to see a kit in the flesh as I have many a quality issue with Blacksmith in the days of Mr Blacksmith himself ranging from shapeless castings to whole etches being etched the wrong way round.

I met the Coppercraft chap at Expo EM N last year - will he be at S4um? I feel a bit sorry for him that he has just invested money in the old Kirk 2 Bil - his market has just been swamped by the Chinese...




Well done and many thanks for the link - I have just ordered a small sackful - hope they are all as good as the one I already have!

Best wishes,

Howard.

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dcockling
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby dcockling » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:47 pm

JFS wrote:I met the Coppercraft chap at Expo EM N last year - will he be at S4um?

Hi Howard,

Coopercraft's Paul Dunn is a member of the Society (6553) and active on this forum as Great Western Man so you can PM or e-mail him from here.

Coopercraft won't be at Scalefour North, but will be at Railex, Wigan, Railwells and Scaleforum.

All the Best
Danny

JFS
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby JFS » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:52 pm

Danny,

Many thanks for that - I am on the case! I did take a card off him and then promptly mislaid it!

Best wishes,

Howard.

williambarter
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby williambarter » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:42 pm

It's the trailer underframe I am unsure about - whether to design an etch, use a Hornby one and ignore the differences, or try some surgery with two Hornby ones. Also not quite sure what bits and pieces to hang underneath it - I presume it would not have all the equipment that a motor coach has.

I've worked up the bodysides just as the SR did - as I have already done artwork and some etches for the steam stock from which the 1925 EMUs were converted, just put the bits together, added a driving compartment and van area, and panelled over the gaps. Results attached! I feel that diagram 666 and 755 need a bit more moulding in those big blank panels but have not seen a photo that makes clear exactly what - comments welcome.

William
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Conversions not to scale.pdf
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JFS
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby JFS » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:14 pm

William,

I would not have thought that the Hornby U/F would be a good starting point as it is a driving trailer and so has the wrong bogie / buffing gear etc at one end - plus shoe fuses Line boxes and all the rest associated with the shoe gear.

The trailer U/Fs were pretty standard and pretty simple and the only underframe gear was the brake cylinder, slack adjuster, pull levers etc, triple valve and aux reservoir plus perhaps the odd box or two to do with heating and lighting.
Perhaps the easiest starting point would be to buy a Roxey trailer ( http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product ... b-trailer/ )and swap the sides (and perhaps the ends / roof - though the profiles were not massively different - unlike the ex Brighton units) At least you would get all the running gear and the castings for the brake gear etc. And compared with the price of Hornby spares it is not massively expensive - who knows - show him you etched sides and he might do a deal with you!

Hope that helps.

Howard.

JFS
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby JFS » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:03 am

William,

Sorry - meant to say many thanks for a glimpse of your proposed etchings - they look very characteristic with the deep eves panels and will make very a nice basis for a model. :thumb

I can see that you still have a bit to do to complete them as a couple of fold lines are missing, and I assume you will want to put slots in the fold along the solebar as it would be a devil of a thing to fold otherwise - being so close to the panel.

I am curious what the half etch line on the back is for just above and below the door droplight position - are you not worried that there might be a breakthrough into the waist panel / and/or the door opening line half etch?

(I hope all of that sounds a lot more like encouragement than criticism!!)

Are you planning to make them available to potential purchasers?

Best wishes,

Howard.

williambarter
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby williambarter » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:07 am

JFS wrote:William,

I would not have thought that the Hornby U/F would be a good starting point as it is a driving trailer and so has the wrong bogie / buffing gear etc at one end - plus shoe fuses Line boxes and all the rest associated with the shoe gear.

The trailer U/Fs were pretty standard and pretty simple and the only underframe gear was the brake cylinder, slack adjuster, pull levers etc, triple valve and aux reservoir plus perhaps the odd box or two to do with heating and lighting.
Perhaps the easiest starting point would be to buy a Roxey trailer ( http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product ... b-trailer/ )and swap the sides (and perhaps the ends / roof - though the profiles were not massively different - unlike the ex Brighton units) At least you would get all the running gear and the castings for the brake gear etc. And compared with the price of Hornby spares it is not massively expensive - who knows - show him you etched sides and he might do a deal with you!

Hope that helps.

Howard.


Thanks for the thoughts about the trailer (middle coach of a 3-car set). I was assuming that to shift a brass 3-car set I would need two motor bogies, so would have to buy two 2BILs, and thus have a spare standard bogie to substitute for the driving trailer bogie with shoegear for the middle coach. As to buffing gear, I'm going for 1925 when these units were fitted with MCB couplers within the set, so a substitute brass headstock would have to be part of the etched work anyway for all the cars. After that, it sounds as if making a true trailer underframe out of the driving trailer underframe would be a matter of removing unnecessary parts, except possibly for some bolt detail on the underframe which I might ignore (especially after applying a coat or two of the brake-block dust brown that seemed to dominate the whole railway).

The half-etched line beneath the droplight opening was an attempt to prevent solder leaking onto the droplight by providing a little sump for it to collect into - whether it is that or improved technique since I added that feature I am not sure, but my more recent builds have been quite good in that respect. It lies nicely within a moulding line on the exterior, and there has been no sign of it breaking through on the equivalent steam stock that I have already built.

William

williambarter
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby williambarter » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:56 am

It looks to me as if Hornby have provided their driving trailer with a dummy motor bogie, whereas I would have expected it to have simply a standard bogie plus shoegear. Are they right?

If I can make one of their motor bogies shift a brass 3-car set, then having the dummy motor bogie for one of my motor coaches would suit me very well indeed!

William

JFS
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby JFS » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:58 pm

It does not lack power! Mine (with some extra weight) will shove the Bil plus four LH Maunsels without issue - but then I am not modelling Durnsford Road flyover... I am certainly looking to it to power a four car unit.

As I understand it, the DT shoegear bogies were not the same as ordinary trailer bogies as they were 8' 9" wheelbase. Having said that, it does look like Hornby have just used the motor bogie which is wrong and I confess I had not spotted it!

These things are available as spares from the same source that Re6/6 pointed us towards.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310635097641? ... 1497.l2648

And Roxey do a kit also.

Best wishes,

H

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Simon_S
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby Simon_S » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:51 pm

JFS wrote:It does not lack power! Mine (with some extra weight) will shove the Bil plus four LH Maunsels without issue - but then I am not modelling Durnsford Road flyover... I am certainly looking to it to power a four car unit.


The Hornby 4 VEP uses a similar motor bogie and it struggles with that. I think the problem is that traction forces are transmitted through the top pivot so it tries to pull a wheelie all the time - I'm going to try adding a traction link at wheel height to resolve this. That said, the VEP has internal bearings on the unpowered axles so there is much more friction than with pinpoints.

JFS
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Re: Hornby 2 BIL

Postby JFS » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:46 pm

Simon,

Good point - all my vehicles are on pin-point axles and are very free running (if quite heavy).

Simon_S wrote: I'm going to try adding a traction link at wheel height to resolve this.


That sounds like exactly the solution used on the Real Thing - always a good starting point! But they are also quite difficult to engineer to allow the bogie to pivot in yaw and pitch and yet not move fore and aft relative to the underframe. I am looking forward to seeing the outcome as it could be very useful - especially as the Bachman power bogies suffer the same issue. Perhaps the Replica solution is best after all - anyone tried one???


Good luck,

Howard.


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