Ultrascale or Gibson?

[David Thorpe]

I'm venturing into the world of diesels and hope shortly to convert a Bachmann class 24 to P4, ideally with as few problems as possible.

As I understand it, both Ultrascale and Gibson offer conversion packs for this. I'm obviously tempted by the Ultrascale - high quality wheelsets complete with gears, should be easy - whileas the Gibsons would seem to be a more complicated proposition, presumably requiring the removal of the gears from the Bachmann axles, replacing them on the Gibson ones. On the other hand, the Ultrascale sets are more than twice the price, incur an additional £6.50 "postage" charge, and there's a ten week waiting list.

Most relevant postings in this section of the forum appear to deal with Ultrscale wheels, so i was wondering if anyone has had any experience with the Gibson wheels and, if so, whether you found them satisfactory and if they presented any great difficulty?

DT

[grovenor-2685]

See http://www.norgrove.me.uk/classes24-25-44.htm
I am perfectly happy with the Gibsons, a bit more work but saves cost and waiting, for locos with 3'7" wheels such as the class 20, Branchlines (Steam era) are even easier.
see http://www.norgrove.me.uk/class20.html
The results can be seen rolling by here

Regards
Keith

[Tim V]

However, the Ultrascales are easier to fit, and worth the extra money. For a first attempt, I would go for them, and try the Gibsos later

[David Knight]

There is one other alternative worth mentioning, Kean-Maygib coach wheels also fit the bill but are a bit hard to get ahold of these days. They have the great advantage that they have a much larger area for pickup than the Gibsons present, can't speak to Ultrascales 'cos I've only used them for my Sentinel.

HTH

David

[grovenor-2685]

Coach wheels, however are only really suitable for locos with 3'7" wheels, why I recommend the Branchlines, same advantage as the KM in relation to pickups but generally easier to get.
For the 24, 25, 44, 45, 47 etc that have 3'9" wheels it really is better to use a larger wheel hence using Gibson (Unless you still have a stock of Studiolith)
regards
Keith

[Philip Hall]

I endorse the use of Branchlines wheels; fitting them to a Heljan Class 33 was simplicity itself and gave me the correct diameter as well (Heljan fit too large a wheel, and it rides a touch too high as a result). However, these days they come with brass axles, which is not a problem for plastic chassis in a proprietary model but would have to be changed for steel if the chassis is made of metal. Not much of a problem though as 2mm steel axle material is readily available.

Philip

[craig_whilding]

Black Beetle coach wheels are about 14.2-.3mm whereas Kean Maygib are 14.5mm. It can help sometimes to use one or the other depending on application.

[Jonathan Wells]

I fitted Gibson wheels to my Bachmann 25 and that was my very first P4 loco conversion. Only drawback of Gibson wheels is that Gibson wheels have plastic centres which leaves little metal for the pickups to contact.

[David Thorpe]

I fitted Gibson wheels to my Bachmann 25 and that was my very first P4 loco conversion. Only drawback of Gibson wheels is that Gibson wheels have plastic centres which leaves little metal for the pickups to contact.

Has that proved problematical, or have you got them running well enough?

At the moment I'm definitiely inclining towards the Gibson option. I appreciate fully Tim's point about the greater ease in fitting the Ultrascales, and I'm aware of their quality. And I don't have a wheel press as recommended by Keith in his extremely helpful article on converting the class 24 and 25s. However, when you look at the figures:
Ultrascale £25.19 plus £6.50 for first class post: £31.69
Gibson: £13.00 plus £2.00 post plus a GW wheel press £10 plus £1.00 post: £26.00.
And I won't have to wait ten weeks.
Mind you, I might still have chosen the Ultrascale had it not been for their horrendous postage charge for which I can't see any justification.

DT

[grovenor-2685]

Has that proved problematical, or have you got them running well enough?

Not speaking for Jonathon, but you can see the video above. I have not needed to replace the pick ups on any of mine, a bit of tweaking with tweezers persuades them to contact the back of the tyre rather than the plastic.

Note that I only use the wheel puller (not a press) because its sitting in the toolbox, its only used to remove the old wheels, which is not a critical operation. A bit of plate with a Vee slot that you can rest across the vice jaws and you can just tap the axle out using a punch or short rod of 2mm or less diameter. The gear just needs the axle tapped through until it is off the knurling then it will pull the rest of the way by hand.

Wheel press is Ok for putting wheels on , but do you have a drill press? That's what I normally use, since these wheels do not need quartering the extra facilities of the wheel press are not required. Mind you its good to have one in the tool box for steam locos.
Regards
Keith

[David Thorpe]

Sorry Keith, I meant wheel puller, not press - I've actually got a GW wheel press. I think however that a wheel puller would be a useful addition to the toolbox, especially when i can justify it in the present context!

DT

[Philip Hall]

I might still have chosen the Ultrascale had it not been for their horrendous postage charge for which I can't see any justification.

Ultrascale always send stuff out by Special Delivery, not ordinary First Class, for security, hence the charge.

As far as the wheel puller is concerned, it's not brilliant for a Gibson wheel which has the tyre press fitted to the centre; often all that happens is that you pull the tyre off!

Philip

[David Thorpe]

Ultrascale always send stuff out by Special Delivery, not ordinary First Class, for security, hence the charge.

Not according to their website where it states:
UK First class (customers own risk); £6.50
UK Special delivery (insured) £8.00.
However, I'm wondering if they've made a mistake because they quote Overseas airmail (customers own risk) at £6.00, ie 50p cheaper than the UK equivalent, and I don't see how that can be right. However, when I tried to use their shopping cart, it imposed a postage charge of £6.50. I've taken it up with them.

Their statement that customers own risk means that any item despatched via this method, which then gets lost or damaged in transit, will not be replaced without charge is actually in contravention of the Distance Selling Regulations. These state quite clearly that items sent out by a business belong to that business until they have been accepted by the consumer. So they cannot charge the consumer for carrying risks that the business hould bear. Thus (section 3.36 on the DTI Guide for Businesses on distance selling) "Where goods are lost in transit from you to the consumer you will need to either send new goods or offer the consumer a full refund, including delivery charges," Tough perhaps, but that would appear to be the law.

As far as the wheel puller is concerned, it's not brilliant for a Gibson wheel which has the tyre press fitted to the centre; often all that happens is that you pull the tyre off!

A point well made, particularly as I wasn't aware of it! Unfortunately I haven't seen the GW wheel puller and I wonder if this apples to diesel/coach wheels as well as loco ones. However, in this instance it would be used not for the Gibson wheels but for the Bachmann ones and it wouldn't matter too much what happened to them as long as they came off!

DT

[craig_whilding]

1st class is insured up to £35 anyway..

Yes the tyres can come off Gibson coach and wagon wheels too and its usually worth gluing them on when you know they are on straight.

[David Knight]

There is an article on how to make a wheel puller in Scalefour News #145. It is designed to give better support to wheel centres so as to avoid tyre loss.

Cheers,

David

[grovenor-2685]

I would recommend the North West Shortline wheelpuller seen in my link, it is versatile and does not work on the tyres. I asume NWSL still do them.
Keith

[Philip Hall]

David,

My apologies for the misinformation re the postage charges; I've always gone for the Special delivery option and hadn't noticed the two different figures.

Having looked at Keith's link I like the look of the NWSL puller as it does offer more support, although the hammer and pin punch is less elegant but still works!

Philip

[David Thorpe]

I would recommend the North West Shortline wheelpuller seen in my link, it is versatile and does not work on the tyres. I asume NWSL still do them.
Keith

They do three - the Puller, the Puller 2, and the Puller 3! http://shop.osorail.com/category.sc?categoryId=15

While Puller 3 is not appropriate, being for larger scales, I have to confess that I can't see any difference whatever between the Puller and Puller 2. I shall email them and ask them.

DT

[craig_whilding]

I would recommend the North West Shortline wheelpuller seen in my link, it is versatile and does not work on the tyres. I asume NWSL still do them.
Keith

While Puller 3 is not appropriate, being for larger scales, I have to confess that I can't see any difference whatever between the Puller and Puller 2. I shall email them and ask them.

DT

The different abilities are in the full descriptions. They do look a bit more refined than the GW Models ones I have though I only paid £5 for the pair of those 2nd hand and they've been great for doing the diesel conversions.

[David Thorpe]

The different abilities are in the full descriptions.

I read the full descriptions and I thought they were exactly the same. Thus:

The Puller: An economical rigid, precision tool for removing wheels, drivers, and gears from axles and shafts. Designed for HO scale modeling, but handles larger and smaller scales as well. Suitable for work in ‘N’ scale modeling with aid of #4540-6 Professional Precision PressTool set. Capacity: axles/shafts from 1/16" to 1/8"; Drivers, wheels, gears up to 1-5/8" O.D.; maximum press depth: 1". Includes: allen wrench; 1/16" tip press screw; 3/32" tip press screw; ‘V’ plate; operating suggestions.

The Puller2: An economical rigid, precision tool for removing wheels, drivers, and gears from axles and shafts. Designed for HO scale modeling, but handles larger and smaller scales as well. Suitable for work in ‘N’ scale modeling with aid of #4540-6 Professional Precision PressTool set. Capacity: axles/shafts from 1/16" to 1/8"; Drivers, wheels, gears up to 1-5/8" O.D.; maximum press depth: 1". Includes: allen wrench; 1/16" tip press screw; 3/32" tip press screw; ‘V’ plate; operating suggestions.

I think they've made a mistake. There is however a difference in the short description, thus for Puller 2:
"Same as The Puller except: accepts drivers, wheels, gears up to 1" O.D.; maximum press depth: 1-1/2".

So I'm confused (a not unusual state). Hopefully NWSL will remedy that when they reply to my enquiry. Then, of course, I'll have to decide which of them, if any, I'll get.

DT

[grovenor-2685]

The one I have appears to be the puller, ie http://shop.osorail.com/product.sc?productId=276&categoryId=15 the price now quoted is a bit of a shock but then I have had mine more than 20 years
Looks as though the difference between the puller and the puller II is that the rectangular section tube its built in has been turned through 90 degrees to allow more depth but smaller wheel diameter. Won't matter for diesels but any steam wheels over 6ft will need the original design.
Regards
Keith

[David Thorpe]

Keith, I've now been told by NWSL that the difference between the two is that while both use the same body, the Puller is orientated horizontally and the Puller 2 vertically. I've never used one, but suspect that the horizontal version might suit better?

The price is in US dollars and works out at £14.60. By the time postage etc is added it'll presumably come to at least £20. Having said that, one thing I have learned is that money spent on good tools is usually money well spent.

DT

[Paul Townsend]

The one I have appears to be the puller, ie http://shop.osorail.com/product.sc?productId=276&categoryId=15 the price now quoted is a bit of a shock but then I have had mine more than 20 years
Looks as though the difference between the puller and the puller II is that the rectangular section tube its built in has been turned through 90 degrees to allow more depth but smaller wheel diameter. Won't matter for diesels but any steam wheels over 6ft will need the original design.
Regards
Keith

This looks similar to the GW models gear puller.
What is the box material thickness?
This looks to be easy to use on stand alone wheel sets but the thickness would limit its use in a mounted wheelset that can't drop out.

[David Thorpe]

I haven't seem the GW wheel puller, and can't find a picture of it so I can't compare the two. I have seen a picture on the net of something that purports to be the GW 0 gauge wheel puller and it looks a very different animal.

DT

[David Thorpe]

I don't know what it is about me and postage (maybe because I have small mail-order business) but I got a bit of a bombshell from NWSL when they told me that their overseas carriage charge is a fixed $15.95, which brings the cost of their wheel puller up to about £25.00 sterling. I'm not really sure that I can justify that..... Maybe I'll look into making one.

Disappointingly, Ultrascale have not replied to my email regarding their postage charges. Quite apart from any other issues, I still can't understand why overseas customers pay 50p less for postage than UK ones!

DT