Dapol Class 22

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Captain Kernow
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Dapol Class 22

Postby Captain Kernow » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:09 pm

With the forthcoming release of this loco, Dapol have kindly offered Ultrascale a sample of the loco, to enable them to consider producing a drop-in wheel set. Ultrascale are asking folk who are interested in drop-in wheelsets to let them know of their interest - http://www.ultrascale.co.uk/show_notice.php?noteid=39
Tim M
Member of the Devon Riviera Area Group.

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Captain Kernow
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Captain Kernow » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:27 pm

Unfortunately it now looks as if the Ultrascale conversion set won't now be happening - too expensive/awkward by the looks of it... :(
Tim M
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Philip Hall
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Philip Hall » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:34 pm

Tim,

You'll have to pass the loco to Brian Harrap to have a bash at the Dapol wheels with his Unimat!

Philip

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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Armchair Modeller » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:48 pm

Do the prototypes for future Dapol releases - the 21s, 29s and 41s all use the same wheels? If so, the potential market may be bigger than Ultrascale realise.

Is there any reason they can't they supply the wheels insulated for people to add their own "shorting" method, like you do for normal wheels using split frame construction?

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Andy C
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Andy C » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:44 pm

I suspect the 21 / 29 will use the same wheels and pick up arrangements so that could possibly make it viable. A bit of a bummer really as I need a 29! However I am sure I will come up with a suitable solution.

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Russ Elliott
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Russ Elliott » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:48 pm

Armchair Modeller wrote:Do the prototypes for future Dapol releases - the 21s, 29s and 41s all use the same wheels?

No. I suspect the non-standard heavy-spoke pattern for the 21 and 29 is what decided the matter for Ultrascale. Edit: The 41s were thought to have had the same wheel as the 21 and 29 as built (11-spoke) but they soon acquired discs.
Last edited by Russ Elliott on Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

David Knight
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby David Knight » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:53 pm

So, Ultrascale is off the list, how about Gibson?

Cheers,

David

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Captain Kernow
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Captain Kernow » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:12 pm

If you look at post 544 on RMWeb - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... e__st__525 - you will see that Dapol are suggesting they may look to produce their own EM and P4 replacement wheels - worth supporting, I think....
Tim M
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Flymo748
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Flymo748 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:37 pm

Captain Kernow wrote:If you look at post 544 on RMWeb - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... e__st__525 - you will see that Dapol are suggesting they may look to produce their own EM and P4 replacement wheels - worth supporting, I think....

Thanks Tim - the Committee is already swapping emails about this :-)

The key for P4 (or EM) is what would Dapol consider a viable number. The gesture is greatly appreciated by them for even considering it.

Cheers
Paul Willis
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Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
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Captain Kernow
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Captain Kernow » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:27 pm

Maybe Ultrascale haven't given up just yet either....

I think this is dated 25/11/11 from their website:
Conversion Viability Update (2):

To try and solve the problem of connecting the tyre to the stub axle, we are currently looking into the possible use of electrically conductive plastic to injection mould the wheel centres.

We have requested samples, but these have not yet arrived and until we can test the plastic we are not sure if the plastic will be conductive enough. Even if it is there is still the cost as this plastic is expensive when compared to the Nylatron we currently use. We will update information as we have it.
Tim M
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Flymo748
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:23 pm

Captain Kernow wrote:If you look at post 544 on RMWeb - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... e__st__525 - you will see that Dapol are suggesting they may look to produce their own EM and P4 replacement wheels - worth supporting, I think....

To follow this up, Dapol have indicated that they *can* produce a run of P4 wheelsets.

The cost of the replacement will be £19.95 for eight wheels on axles.

The only stumbling block is that they need a minimum order of 350 sets to cover the tooling costs and make it happen.

So if you fancy a P4 Class 22 "ready to run", then get across to RMWeb and register an interest now!

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman
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Pannier Tank
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Pannier Tank » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:50 am

Captain Kernow wrote:Maybe Ultrascale haven't given up just yet either....

I think more people are showing an interest in the Dapol wheelset than the Ultrascale wheelset which is a shame, because if Dapol don't get a minimum of 350 they won't go ahead. If Ultrascale are not seeing the demand (that Dapol have seen) they won't go ahead either. May put Ultrascale off developing the Dapol range in the future.
Regards

David

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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Armchair Modeller » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:54 am

Dapol have now withdrawn from the duel - they have decided to wait and see if Ultrascale come up something first.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:02 pm

Well, 350 P4 class 22 buyers was pretty optimistic in the first place, expecting them to commit in just a couple of days wildly so.
Keith

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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby craig_whilding » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:09 pm

The Ultrascale product should give a better looking spoke profile and a known tyre. It wouldn't be a great hardship if users had to fit a shorting etch/use conductive paint behind plastic spoked if the conductive tyre material is too expensive.

It would have been interesting though to see what a Chinese factory would manage with a P4 tyre though. £7000 was an interesting cost too.

The Western at least should be nice and simple when it comes along with its disk wheels.

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John Bateson
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby John Bateson » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:37 pm

Not wheels I appreciate but ...
The quotes for a large manufacturer making P4 wheels are probably realistic. A well known supplier with some clever lathes commented that turning chimneys and things would be simple, but would take 4-5 hours to set up his machinery - and unless 500 were ordered of each type it just wasn't worth while for him.
Given that GCR chimneys and boilers etc do not have a unique height (although there are a few of the same) I would have had to expect selling over 200 'fish engines' - and such a number would be laughed right out of my business plan by my bookkeeper.
John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...
Avoiding the soaps ...
http://www.greatcentralmodels.co.uk

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Captain Kernow
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Captain Kernow » Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:47 pm

craig_whilding wrote:The Ultrascale product should give a better looking spoke profile and a known tyre. It wouldn't be a great hardship if users had to fit a shorting etch/use conductive paint behind plastic spoked if the conductive tyre material is too expensive.

The way I read this, Craig, is that Ultrascale are unlikely to offer a product at all, if it means the customer having to fiddle around soldering bits of wire to the backs of the wheels or using conductive paint. I would probably invalidate the Ultrascale warranty, for a start...

This is why Ultrascale are looking into this conductive plastic option....
Tim M
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Pannier Tank
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Pannier Tank » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:57 pm

Ultrascale will not be going ahead with a drop in replacement wheelset. See:- http://www.ultrascal...e.php?noteid=39
Regards

David

David Bigcheeseplant
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:06 pm

Ok well I had a quote from China regarding these wheels.

However it's a lot of money for Dapol and would have to be charged at about £35.00 per set.

Now luckily the wheel can be used on Kernow's 6xx so that's good, but as Ultrascale say, there don't seem to be many takers.
Is there a society that might want to collate interest from modellers ( sorry but I don't have the time)?

The problem for me is the financial " leap of faith" that this will entail and at the moment, probably because I don't know the scale, I cannot justify it. However I'm willing to be proved wrong.

Can someone get some figures together for me and we'll see where we go with it?
Cheers
Dave


Saw this posted on RM Web is this something the can the Scalefour society do to get the wheels.

David

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Flymo748
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Flymo748 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:00 pm

David Bigcheeseplant wrote:Ok well I had a quote from China regarding these wheels.

However it's a lot of money for Dapol and would have to be charged at about £35.00 per set.

Now luckily the wheel can be used on Kernow's 6xx so that's good, but as Ultrascale say, there don't seem to be many takers.


Saw this posted on RM Web is this something the can the Scalefour society do to get the wheels.


Hi David,

This has already been discussed at length by the Committee at the time that the Dapol model appeared, and the possibility was raised of Dapol doing a limited run with P4 wheels. You could summarise the problems as follow:

- only 32 people according to Ultrascale (who I have no reason to doubt, as they are very good at following up these new products) are interested.

- I had a conversation with DapolDave about numbers involved, and he wouldn't disclose the tooling costs although I recall that the minimum financial commitment required was about £6,000 in order for the P4 wheelsets to be made.

- there are still only 32 people interested!

Even with the possibility of use on other (future, if Dapol don't change their drive mechanism) models you are still looking at around £200 per set of replacement wheels...

A further very relevant point is that even with their extensive experience, Ultrascale say that they can't make the sums add up. The Society can't bankroll Ultrascale to develop and produce them as whatever Ultrascale _could_ produce them for, we would have to charge 20% more - we are VAT registered and they aren't.

So if people won't pay [whatever price] to Ultrascale, they certainly won't pay [whatever price + VAT] to us.

Sorry, but due to the peculiarities of this loco, it seems that the drop-in route simply won't be available.

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Pannier Tank
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Pannier Tank » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:53 am

Flymo748 wrote:- only 32 people according to Ultrascale (who I have no reason to doubt, as they are very good at following up these new products) are interested.
Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman


And of course that 32 includes P4 & EM Gauges.
Regards

David

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Captain Kernow
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Captain Kernow » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:58 am

Flymo748 wrote:due to the peculiarities of this loco, it seems that the drop-in route simply won't be available

This is a great pity, but there is still the option of using Ultrascale S.R. tender wheels (only 10 spoke, but who's counting, especially when the loco is moving? ;) ) is still there...
Tim M
Member of the Devon Riviera Area Group.

martin goodall
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby martin goodall » Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:51 pm

Captain Kernow wrote:
Flymo748 wrote:due to the peculiarities of this loco, it seems that the drop-in route simply won't be available

This is a great pity, but there is still the option of using Ultrascale S.R. tender wheels (only 10 spoke, but who's counting, especially when the loco is moving? ;) ) is still there...


I have not yet bought one of these models but am currently considering the practicalities of conversion before placing an order.

I agree that a minor discrepancy in the number of spokes is unimportant, as you could hardly count these behind the bogie side frames, so the alternative (SR or LNER tender wheels, or whatever) may well be acceptable.

But the crunch question is whether the original split axles are long enough to accommodate wheels set to 18.83mm gauge. If replacement axle are required, we are back to Square 1, as the particular design of split axle, with current collection from internal brass bearings, may not be easy to reproduce without going to rather a lot of trouble.

Abandoning split-axle pick-up and substituting wiper pick-ups might be a way forward, but seems a pity when Dapol have gone to all the trouble to devise this particular form of current collection.

I am hoping somebody will take the plunge, and report the results of their efforts to convert one of these wee beasties.

SHurst
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby SHurst » Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:13 pm

Ah ha - this fine scale modelling lark gets even more confusing :?

Anyone modelling say Somerset (Radstock/Clutton et al ) in BR days could end up running a BR Standard 2-6-2 Tank with 15/16/17 spoked driving wheels and a Class 22 with 10 spoke driving wheels - neither of which really matter :shock: :o

I think it is time to retire to a darkened room as I feel a headache coming on..... :cry: ( thinks - where is that book on Butterfly Collecting as a Hobby...? )

Simon

Philip Hall
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Re: Dapol Class 22

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:25 pm

Flymo wrote

whatever Ultrascale _could_ produce them for, we would have to charge 20% more - we are VAT registered and they aren't.


Paul,

I had an invoice from Ultrascale the other day and they do charge VAT. Not that it would really make any difference to the impracticalities...

Philip


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