Bachmann 08 to P4

Rustyrail

Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Rustyrail » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:27 pm

Hello all (after a long time away)!

I thought you might like to hear about my ongoing Bachmann 08 conversion. This is the first RTR loco that I've converted to P4 and my experiences have been reasonably favourable - so far. The starting point was an already heavily modified Bachmann 08 in BR blue livery which used to run on one of my OO layouts. My model was one of the first batch of Bachmann shunters that had the less pronounced leaf spring detail (but with the coupling rod joints in the right places). Around the same time that I purchased the loco, Tim Shackleton wrote an excellent follow on article in the MRJ (No.124, 2001) about upgrading the Bachmann model. After reading this thoroughly I decided to follow suit and upgrade the leaf springs and add separate spring support rods to my 08 - in more or less the same way as Tim. This conversion is definitely not for the faint hearted! It is time consuming and very difficult to execute, to avoid inadvertently removing (with a fine scalpel, in my case) fine detail on the outside frames. Half way through the process I began to wish I hadn't started, but continued all the same. Once the appropriate extraneous moulded detail had been removed, I started to make up new leaf springs from individual layers of fine brass strip and thin pieces of plastic card. The rods themselves were fashioned from very fine brass rod/wire. The results, once painted and weathered were, quite simply, fantastic, totally lifting the visual appeal of the loco... from any angle. Suddenly it resembled a real 08 and had a more powerful look about it. To my mind, if you're going to invest time and money converting this already excellent model to P4, then why just stop at replacing the wheel sets? Surely it is worth going the extra mile and getting a more prototypical machine? To my eyes, the lack of separate spring support rods on 4mm 08 shunters really spoils otherwise lovely and characterful models. It really is worth the time and effort doing. Now I'm at the stage of converting the model to P4. The Ultrascale conversion is pretty straight forward if you take your time, however, the hardest part to get right is carefully bending the phosphor bronze pick ups to the wider gauge. I wasn't able to remove the motor block from the outside frame assembly so was forced to bend the pick ups in situ with limited room to manipulate fine nosed pliers. Anyway, the loco ran first time (once I'd temporarily replaced the coupling rods) on my P4 test track, albeit a little noisily, due to adjustments needed on the pick ups. I am now adding plastic card balance weights to the wheels (not easy) and super glueing them from behind, whilst held in place by a small bit of blutack. I will then paint and weather the wheels and repair some home grown fine chassis details that got damaged during the wheel conversion. I can't decide whether to keep the loco in rail blue or replace the body for an early BR black one that I have (both liveries are nice). The loco is destined for my layout "St. Mary Hoo". I will post some photos of my 08 efforts shortly! Thanks for reading!

Cheers
Simon

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3105
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:17 pm

however, the hardest part to get right is carefully bending the phosphor bronze pick ups to the wider gauge. I wasn't able to remove the motor block from the outside frame assembly so was forced to bend the pick ups in situ with limited room to manipulate fine nosed pliers.

I found it possible to twist the pick ups through 90 degrees, more or less so they engage on the edge of the flange rather than on the treads or the flange back. They have been very reliable now for several years.
Regards
Keith

Rustyrail

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Rustyrail » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:55 pm

Hello Keith,

Your suggestion is indeed a possibility and obviously a reliable one. However, by employing a similar method to Bachmann there is even a slight amount of spring on all wheels, in addition to the centre sprung axles which will help keep as many wheels as possible in contact with the rail surface.

I forgot to mention the excellent Brassmasters coupling rods and balance weights that are available for this model. I chose to refine the Bachmann rods as much as possible (using a needle file) and fabricate my own balance weights.

Cheers
Simon

User avatar
Flymo748
Posts: 2157
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:02 pm

Rustyrail wrote:Hello all (after a long time away)!

I thought you might like to hear about my ongoing Bachmann 08 conversion. .... The loco is destined for my layout "St. Mary Hoo". I will post some photos of my 08 efforts shortly! Thanks for reading!


Hi Simon,

Thanks for telling the story! That sounds really intriguing about the improvements that you've gained.

Anyway, to the question I have - didn't you start a blog/thread somewhere about St Mary Hoo?

My fading memory recalls that it was going to be a Dungeness-esque CEGB power station thing, set in the wilds of Essex, or Norfolk or some such eastern fastness... Have I lost the plot entirely, as well as the bookmark to your scribblngs?

Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Rustyrail

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Rustyrail » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:32 pm

Hello Flymo!

No you haven't lost the plot, and you are spot on (location/subject wise). I started a blog about the layout but various unforeseen circumstances got in the way so it remains in mid air so to speak. The blog can be found here: http://stmaryhoo.blogspot.com/

I certainly intend carrying on with project and the 08 is a sort of reintroduction to it...

Cheers
Simon

PS - Keith I don't suppose you have some photos of your 08 pick up arrangement?

User avatar
Flymo748
Posts: 2157
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:33 am

Rustyrail wrote:No you haven't lost the plot, and you are spot on (location/subject wise). I started a blog about the layout but various unforeseen circumstances got in the way so it remains in mid air so to speak. The blog can be found here: http://stmaryhoo.blogspot.com/


Hi Simon,

Glad to know that I hadn't made it a complete figment of my imagination!

A quick whizz over there shows that I'm already subscribed as a Follower, so I'll look forward to future updates :-)

Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

User avatar
Re6/6
Posts: 404
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:53 pm

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Re6/6 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:16 am

This method of additional pick-up has served me well for some years. It was shown to me by Tim Maddocks from his 'workbench' on one of the old incarnations of RMweb. Simply small strips of copperclad are epoxied on, with phosphor bronze strips soldered to them. Thus by retaining the originals each wheel has two pick-ups. Simples! ;)

006.JPG
006.JPG (103.68 KiB) Viewed 9415 times
John

Rustyrail

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Rustyrail » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:49 pm

Many thanks for your post and the excellent photo Re 6/6! I've now tweaked the pick ups in the same way that Keith suggested, bending them by 90 degrees so that they touch the back of the wheels and this seems to work a treat; the noisiness has now stopped and it performs like it did in its stock OO Bachman guise, i.e. nice and smooth. One thing I've noticed, however, is a distinct type of lumpiness in the running (one direction only). Whether this was there before the P4 conversion I can't remember, as it is so long ago that I used the model. It's not too alarming and doesn't affect its progress through curves, etc, but it is annoying. What could be causing this is a mystery; I've checked for any obstructions to the wheels, cranks, etc but nothing shows up. There is nothing on the wheel treads and the quartering is spot on. My only theory is that it is a gearing problem, with one of the nylon gears not running concentrically, which might cause a slight movement downwards on the driving wheel brass gear. Has anyone else noticed this after converting the Bachmann model with the Ultrascale wheel set?

martin goodall
Posts: 983
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:20 pm

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby martin goodall » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:07 pm

Rustyrail wrote:One thing I've noticed, however, is a distinct type of lumpiness in the running (one direction only). Has anyone else noticed this after converting the Bachmann model with the Ultrascale wheel set?


You should suspect the centring of the coupling rods compared with the wheel centres.

There have also been issues in some cases with the accuracy with which the axle slots are machined in the chassis block. So you might also check this.

Re-centring the crank-pin holes in the coupling rods may well be the answer to the problem.

This, or similar problems, have been reported on this forum several times in the past. The same problem seems to afflict the Bachmann 45XX.

Rustyrail

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Rustyrail » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:11 pm

Cheers for the info Martin. I'll have a look at those things. If it was the coupling rods wouldn't it show up in both directions?

Rustyrail

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Rustyrail » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:19 pm

A photo showing the general 08 devastation during the P4 conversion yesterday. More photos to follow!
Attachments
08.jpg

User avatar
Wizard of the Moor
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:02 pm

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Wizard of the Moor » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:08 pm

Rustyrail wrote:One thing I've noticed, however, is a distinct type of lumpiness in the running (one direction only). Whether this was there before the P4 conversion I can't remember, as it is so long ago that I used the model. It's not too alarming and doesn't affect its progress through curves, etc, but it is annoying. What could be causing this is a mystery; I've checked for any obstructions to the wheels, cranks, etc but nothing shows up.


I have observed a similar problem with my Bachman 08. I suspect it is due to the slop in the knuckle joint of the rods. The joint will hit the Ultrascale crankpin washer when running in the right direction.

FWIW, I have just converted a Hornby 08 using the Ultrascale wheelset. This is bit more involved than the Bachmann conversion!

However, when I tried running it in the performance was horrendous. It was as if one wheel would throw itself off the track each revolution.

The Hornby rods are much better than the Bachmann ones, although my pair were twisted over their length. Removing the twist helped.

I then changed the Ultrascale 14BA washers to 16BA ones with the holes broached out to fit the crankpins. The running was then much improved. After about 6 hours on the rolling road it now performs adequately. I suspect that similar mods to the pickups as Re6/6 shows above will be needed to get things better.

Rustyrail

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Rustyrail » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:39 pm

Very interesting James. I have a Hornby 08 in OO and having had a look under the keeper plate (to solve a mysterious running problem) I can only concur with your observations; i.e. the conversion to P4 would be a more complex process than the user friendly Bachmann model, mainly due to the tightly fitting hornblocks. My Hornby 08 (a very nice looking model) used to be extremely smooth with incredible flywheel movement - after the power was switched off - where it would run on for several centimetres. But recently it has developed an erratic attitude; it will proceed nice and slowly and then suddenly blast into TGV mode for no apparent reason, then return to a more sedate 08 style! I've investigated every possible cause from transformer, dirt on track, dirt on pick ups, gears, etc, etc. I am now wondering if the motor itself is faulty. Not only that but the gears have developed an unpleasant high pitched screech at higher speeds (a friend of mine has the same problem with his Hornby 08). The trusty old Bachmann model on the other hand (now successfully converted to P4) is incredibly reliable and robust, and it's ten years old now. I will post some photos of the finished model in due course. It is resplendent in BR black livery and looks very nice with its new wheels, etc.

Cheers
Simon

JerryO

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby JerryO » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:28 pm

I too had a number of problems when converting my Bachmann 08 to P4.

I used the Ultrascale conversion wheelset with Brassmasters Coupling rods.

I had pronounced click in one direction which was eventually traced to the fact that one of the re-formed pick-ups was digging into wheel due to the fact that the contact face did not have lead-in in both directions. This was lifting the wheel before being released.

Another problem which should also be noted is that the add-on balance weights need to be positioned to they are flush or underflush with the tyre rim otherwise they will catch on the plastic brake rods and further dressing with file ensures any edges are smoothed.
Last edited by JerryO on Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

craig_whilding
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:34 pm

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby craig_whilding » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:43 pm

Buying replacement Brassmasters rods will eradicate much of the problems possible in the conversion of an 08 from either company.

Although the Bachmann is the quicker conversion the Hornby model has axleboxes and hornguides and can be properly sprung as well as being better engineered to begin with. A shortcut is just to spring the middle axle with some handrail knobs and wire giving a similar effect to the Bachmann as bought but its better to spring the lot.

Rustyrail

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Rustyrail » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:45 am

Here's the 08 with the more or less completed chassis (P4 Ultrascale driving wheels; home made balance weights, etc). The BR black livery is very attractive and not as common as the usual blue and green examples one sees on layouts. Although it is hard to see from this angle, the scratch built metal leaf springs have separately applied support rods. Several added details are incorrectly painted for an 08 of this vintage as the chassis came from a BR blue example. The black body still needs attention; subtle weathering, added details and what not. The coupling rods are not as fine as I'd like and I may reduce these still further. The loco runs very smoothly now.

Cheers
Simon
Attachments
08.jpg

Rustyrail

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Rustyrail » Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:49 am

The unsuspecting Bachmann 08 straight out of the box before being converted to P4 (just for comparison purposes).
Attachments
08a.jpg

Rustyrail

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Rustyrail » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:43 pm

A photo showing the model in its BR blue guise since conversion to P4...
Attachments
08.jpg

JerryO

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby JerryO » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:22 pm

The pictures show up a quirk I have noticed with the two body types.
With the body type that has long hinges straps, the upper locking strap on the rearmost full side access panel is above the line of the adjacent handrails whereas on the body type with short (low profile) hinges it is below the line of handrails. This occurs is on both sides.
I have studied prototype pictures and have not found this difference.

steves17
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:00 am

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby steves17 » Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:29 am

This is more of a general question, as i'm looking to convert the wheels at a later date, but does anyone have a good spray can recommendation for changing a green Bachmann 08 model to BR black? I guess black is black, but i'm green to modelling, so if anyone has got a recommendation that would be nice. Might get an air brush one day for more serious long term modelling, but for now a disposable spray can would be much more preferable.

Loosely on the same subject does anyone have a recommended yellow for Heljan's diesels- pacifically the 35 Hymek and 28 CoBo. Is there a difference of the yellow between the Brunswick Green and the later Blue livery? One more ( promise ) a recommendation Brunswick for Bachmann's 57xx pannier? These last ones would all be for hand painting, just some minor modifications. I can colour mix, but if there is a 'ready in the pot paint' that anyones tried with satisfaction that would be great to hear. Bachmann and Heljan must use something of corse for their RTR models after all.

Thanks in advance for anyone who can help.

Steve.

Philip Hall
Posts: 1244
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:50 pm

I have found the Tamiya spray cans very good. They have quite a fine spray pattern which I use for a basic coat on a wagon or carriage underframe, or loco wheels. They have an interesting range of colours, aimed at military and aircraft modelling I suspect, but useful to us. I am particularly fond of 'rubber black' which is an almost-black shade. I often use it on carriage roofs and loco wheels in combination with the Humbrol acrylic 'gunmetal'' spray, which has some metallic particles in it which liven things up a little.

Beware, though, that the Tamiya spray cans utilise a very pungent solvent, so I always spray outside with the breeze behind me, sometimes even with a respirator mask. I have had some issues with spray vapours in the past, so I tend to be very careful; this is also why I have not used an airbrush for many years. Humbrol acrylic cans do not seem so bad. For plain black I use satin or matt black from Halfords, but the spray pattern from these is not so fine.

Philip
Last edited by Philip Hall on Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Tim V
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Tim V » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:56 pm

I can also recommend the Tamiya spray cans. They do a very nice extremely dark grey which I use instead of black, looks like a faded black colour.
Tim V

User avatar
stevecarr
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:00 pm

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby stevecarr » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:40 pm

Tim

What,s the part number?

Regards

Steve

User avatar
Tim V
Posts: 2204
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:40 pm

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Tim V » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:51 pm

My tin is marked TS-63
Tim V

Philip Hall
Posts: 1244
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Bachmann 08 to P4

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:53 pm

Tamiya 'Rubber Black' is TS-82.

Philip


Return to “Diesel and Electric Locomotives”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest