RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

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jjnewitt
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby jjnewitt » Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:02 am

waveydavey wrote:The drive trains are 11mm wide Justin.

Accurascale have provided no means of restricting the side movement of the wheels so I've had to use lots of 2mm id washers to get things under control.

Cheers

David


Thanks David. A bit narrower than they looked.

Justin

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Phil Eames
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Phil Eames » Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:13 am

waveydavey wrote:With everything reassembled I noticed how low the axleboxes are compared to the wheels. I suspect Accurascale have scanned a bogie that doesn't have the weight of a loco on it.

20220728_133050.jpg


It looks like your suspicions are correct if you compare to this image :(

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/14411062905/in/photolist-nXssVP-cR8LxG-FVSKuH-BV73Cf-egFA9L-rZDniW-UzNpmN-gB4H4G-pFpTSk-9DENUb-cmUJ7d-2mhnQ5z-dYnUbA-qDz1yU-dZBhpJ-iP2tFh-BZm3EM-j8WbjB-PRoAgL-8Smg8D-fCmeS9-2mNKEaS-24e3j14-25wehr7-dnFZSq-5BZ1AJ-cnsAzQ-9Cqsky-24e3iWg-2j3DNBq-zHHwSZ-9MdPZh-9WAbKp-cVRV6m-FVSKhD-t31amc-mg11eS-aqkFiu-AuBhey-gB5cUP-7XRtM3-dNfsN7-M7UBvR-9DBYaH-cmUKH9-7Dk7Jb-cBt9h9-2mFKjtz-8bvrKZ-2kFrVog

cheers
Phil
Cheers
Phil

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jjnewitt
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby jjnewitt » Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:18 am

I wonder if the axleboxes have been deliberately moved downwards to line up with the centres of the undersized wheels?

Justin

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ClikC
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby ClikC » Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:14 am

jjnewitt wrote:I wonder if the axleboxes have been deliberately moved downwards to line up with the centres of the undersized wheels?

Justin


You are probably right Justin, unless Accurascale chose to enlighten us with the sources they used for CAD. I suspect they laser scanned a preserved loco in one go, rather than scanning individual bits of locomotives, then trying to assemble the whole thing. Much easier to work from one set of 3D scan data.

Oh for EE bogie works drawings, so I can design etches for working axle boxes that go up and down over rough track.

Regards
Matt Rogers

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jim s-w
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby jim s-w » Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:23 am

jjnewitt wrote:I wonder if the axleboxes have been deliberately moved downwards to line up with the centres of the undersized wheels?

Justin


I'm not sure as there wouldn't be the big gap between the top of the bogie and the body if that were the case.

It's nice to see plenty of clearance between the wheels and the metal chassis. Not like the Hornby 50. Speaking of which I wonder if Hornby 50 bogie sides might be an option?

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grovenor-2685
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:52 am

jjnewitt wrote:I wonder if the axleboxes have been deliberately moved downwards to line up with the centres of the undersized wheels?

Justin

The wheel centres are in the same place for any size wheel in that gearbox so they won't be centered on the small wheels either.
The axleboxes are clearly right at the bottom of the guides with the springs uncompressed so I would go with the original suggestion for the scanning.
Had the sideframes fitted with the wheel centres correct to the axleboxes the effect would have been to raise the bogie frames closer to the bodyside compensating for the small wheels but that would likely give other problems.
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

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Simon_S
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Simon_S » Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:14 pm

To my eye, it looks like
  • the bogies have had extra height inserted above the axleboxes
  • the equalising beams are too low at the centre axlebox - they should be almost hidden behind the u-shaped strap below the axlebox
  • the axlebox covers are too small
  • the casting around the hornguides is too skinny

Porcy Mane
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Porcy Mane » Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:54 pm

waveydavey wrote:The nipples/side bearer pads are 1.5mm tall.


Thanks Davey.

I'll go along with the idea that Accurascale may have used an unloaded bogie to dimension off, be it tape measure or scan.

Granted, I'm using photos of fabricated class 37 bogies for comparison.

ImageClass 37 bogie by Mickoo737, on Flickr

as compared to:

https://flic.kr/p/9AWAnz

and a Deltic bogie:

ImageDeltic Bogie, Barrow Hill by nigelmenzies, on Flickr

For further comparison, This is Accurascales various Class 37 cast and fabricated bogies from RMweb. Pics that recently disappeared due to the websites outage.

Accurascale-37-6.jpg


If I remember correctly later Bachmann class 37's & Deltics also had a similar bogie to wheel centre mis-alignment

grovenor-2685 wrote:If it sits on those bits of wire at both ends you might have difficulty with track twist. Depending how super accurate your track is. If you do get trouble I would remove the wires at one end and replace by a washer on the centre pin.


Similar method used on coach bogies seem to handle transition from flat to super elevated ok. The Hornby Van B and utility(PMV) are so treated in the video below. The Van B has BB bogies with the PMV using the Hornby bogies as supplied. What could be more problematic for the 3 Axle Deltic bogie maybe the free vertical movement (or lack of) in the centre axle?

Hnby-VanB-Mods27Sm.jpg


https://youtu.be/vdU2PtWHkvA

P

Crepello
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Crepello » Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:25 pm

That looks a very late bogie at Barrow Hill, with its inner headstock anticipating anti-weight-transfer
gear, which I believe was first proposed for the members of this family in connection with Class 50.

I did measure a cast bogie under a Class 37, but can't find my notes. I did turn up a 1 1/2" : 1ft EE GA
for the fabricated type. The height measurement given is to the bolster side bearer, at 3' 7", but scaling
gives the offset to the top of the sideframe as 7", so a believably round 3' 0" results from rail to top of
sideframe. The lower edge of the bodyside is given on another EE drawing as 3' 3" above rail level.

Edit: I found a couple of dimensioned drawings for the fabricated type:
Axle centre (nominal) to top of sideframe is 1' 2 3/8"

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John Donnelly
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:17 am

I note that todays email update from Accurascale makes a point of saying that the upcoming Class 37s have 'correct sized EM and P4 drop in wheel packs (available separately) for finescale modellers.'

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kelly
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby kelly » Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:28 am

John Donnelly wrote:
ChrisMitchell wrote:my P4 wheels only arrived today - in a box almost as big as the one my Deltic shipped in. :D
Chris


Same here, I’ve mentioned it to Accurascale and they’ve said that perhaps a Jiffy bag may be more appropriate in the future :mrgreen:


A jiffy bag is easier to lose however. Which is part of the reason a lot of places use bigger boxes than needed, they get lost less and they can standadise on a given box size, saving money. Personally, boxes that are a little bigger are more useful than a jiffy bag.

On the note of manufacturers offering P4/EM wheels with their models we now have 2, potentially 3:

SLW - Can come ready fitted, OO wheels included in box.
Accurascale - Seperate order.
Potentially Cavalex* - Seperate order, possible exchange.

*I spoke to Cavalex at Showcase and they said they were giving it some consideration for their 56 and other models and how best to do that. I won't say they definitely are going to do it as my memory isn't always great and I don't want to say something that might be misremembered. If they do it will be great. Hopefully we can get Revolution to join in too at some point?
DEMU UPDate Editor
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John Donnelly
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:33 pm

kelly wrote:A jiffy bag is easier to lose however. Which is part of the reason a lot of places use bigger boxes than needed, they get lost less and they can standadise on a given box size, saving money. Personally, boxes that are a little bigger are more useful than a jiffy bag.


While I do appreciate that, for reuse, boxes are more useful that jiffy bags, the box that my wheels came in, which is the same as the one that was photographed earlier in the thread was big enough for at least 100 sets of wheels, there must have been 10+ feet of brown paper inside as well to stop the packet of wheels from rattling around.

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jim s-w
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby jim s-w » Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:47 pm

The other thing is a jiffy bag will go though a letterbox. :thumb

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Hardwicke
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Hardwicke » Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:19 am

My Deltic is on it's way back to Accurascale, hopefully for a perfect one(not withstanding the noted design faults ).
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Hardwicke » Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:26 am

Porcy Mane wrote:
waveydavey wrote:Granted, I'm using photos of fabricated class 37 bogies for comparison.

ImageClass 37 bogie by Mickoo737, on Flickr

P

That looks so much like LMS 10000's bogie with external equalizing beams. Unsurprisingly that's exactly how the design evolved. Even the bogie to loco "spider" bolster looks similar. I only pointed this out to visitors at Wirksworth on Friday (in between laying support paving and looking under our 58022/10000 frame)
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Hardwicke
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Hardwicke » Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:30 am

ClikC wrote:
jjnewitt wrote:I wonder if the axleboxes have been deliberately moved downwards to line up with the centres of the undersized wheels?

Justin


Oh for EE bogie works drawings, so I can design etches for working axle boxes that go up and down over rough track.

Regards

LMS 10000 has bogie drawings. The basic structure is the same
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

Jeremy Good
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby Jeremy Good » Tue Sep 13, 2022 11:48 am

I see that Accurascale have now made the drop in wheelsets for their Class 37 available to order and they are the correct diameter.

It would be interesting to see if these fit the Deltic, subject to the height adjustments suggested elsewhere in this thread.

WaveyDavey - did you get your conversion running again satisfactorily?

Jeremy

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John Donnelly
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Re: RTR (almost) P4 Deltic

Postby John Donnelly » Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:14 am

Jeremy Good wrote:
It would be interesting to see if these fit the Deltic, subject to the height adjustments suggested elsewhere in this thread.



I asked on RMWeb and this was the response:

"We cant promise they will fit, will be up to the end user to experiment. "

John


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