GWR 'Hall' in P4?

[steve howe]

I have recently been given an unbuilt Wills Finecast kit for a GWR 'Hall' (original). Having built a 'Saint' from the same stable in 00 many years ago, I was looking at the castings (which are excellent despite the age of the kit) and wondering if it is feasible to build in P4. I also have a Perseverance chassis kit for the Hall which I think the previous owner must have bought with a view to building in P4 but was seduced by later offerings from messrs Mitchell and Finney!

I know from previous experience of older cast kits that the usual problem is the lack of width inside the splashers and wonder if anyone has had experience of building this kit to 18.83?

Steve

[Russ Elliott]

IIRC, the Wills Hall was designed to fit over a contemporary Triang chassis (the B12?), and thus its wheel spacings are fictional for a Hall (or was Triang's own Hall around at the time?). Shifting some of the splashers might not be so bad though. As to width between splashers, you've got the castings, so get yer ruler out.

[Paul Willis]

Just FYI, there's a coincidentally parallel discussion on what is the best model for a Hall taking place right now on P4Talk.

Iain Rice has just posted a fairly comprehensive summary of the various options, including the Wills Hall.

HTH
Flymo

[steve howe]

Yes, I just caught Iain's post which appeared to answer the question, but I have just compared my castings against the drawing in Russell and put a vernier on them and the splasher centres appear to be spot on...am I missing something?!

[Russ Elliott]

am I missing something?!

Did SEF update the footplate casting? What do the kit instructions say about 'the chassis'?

[steve howe]

Interesting point Russ, the castings are certainly very crisp and clean, only problem is... there's no instructions in the box!

[steve howe]

I've had a look on Google at RTR products
Bachmann seem to have produced a later model in the '49xx' series:

http://railsofsheffield.com/hall-class- ... 10074.aspx

I'd be interested to know if anyone's had experience of this? I've not seen one myself as I don't tend to follow the RTR market, but based on previous Bachmann locos it begs the question 'why bother with whitemetal kits when bodyshells of this quality are available?'

Steve

[Russ Elliott]

It does indeed beg the question as to why you are or were pursuing the Wills route. Btw, you won't be able to get a Bachmann bodyshell, you'll have to buy the whole thing, which will include a tender possibly not to your choice. 99% certain the driver axles will be 3mm. Not sure whether any driver axle is sprung - sometimes Bachmann did it, sometimes they didn't. Ultrascale does not do a dropin conversion. Colin Seymour will probably do you special bore drivers, but you might be better off starting from a Comet chassis and using standard 1/8" bores.

[grovenor-2685]

For AG conversion wheelsets see Part no 4800/31
NB. This is for the current Bachmann Hall, the Bachmann 'Modified Hall' has the old type split frame chassis which is not amenable to axle swaps.
Regards
Keith

[Tim Hale]

Just FYI, there's a coincidentally parallel discussion on what is the best model for a Hall taking place right now on P4Talk.

How is it possible to access this information?

Tim

[dcockling]

Just FYI, there's a coincidentally parallel discussion on what is the best model for a Hall taking place right now on P4Talk.

How is it possible to access this information?

Tim

Hi Tim,

I've copied the thread into an e-mail and sent it to you.

You can register for P4-talk, a Yahoo group, I'm sure that Keith will tell you how, but most of the action is here on the forum these days.

All the Best
Danny

[grovenor-2685]

Here is the discussion you asked about:

Your advice, please, for this normally non-GWR modeller who wants to do a
fairly quick and straightforward rendition of a Hall in early 1950's BR(W)
condition.
It is not a primary interest of mine so don't want to give it too much time
or effort ("Shameful", they cry!). So I'm looking for a proprietary model
that is at least worth considering for P4 conversion and improved detailing,
rather than the likes of a Finney/Mitchell kit which is OTT for my needs
here.
I'd prefer it if the chassis could be retained and "improved", hoping that
there may be a sprung axle or similar found in amongst the 16.5mm original
(eg like the Bachmann Pannier). And that I can get a "conversion" set of P4
wheels for it...!
Does the basis of such a model exist, please? I know that Bachmann have done a Hall for quite a long time but I've never been able to look at one so have no idea whether it meets any of these criteria.
Thanks very much.
Chris McCarthy

Chris -
Depends whether you want an original Churchward/Collett 1928-on 4901
series 'original Hall' with Churchward 'unframed' front end and bar-
frame bogie, or a later Hawkesworth 'Modified Hall' of the 6959-on
series, introduced 1944 with full-length plate frames and a plate-
framed bogie. There are very substantial visible differences between
the two!

For the earlier engines, the only RTR contender (ie, the only RTR
model ever made) is an old-style Triang-Hornby approximation, 'Albert
Hall', vintage 1965. As a basis for a scale model, it's a bit of a
joke. The wheelbase is wrong (used LNER B12 chassis block), boiler is
too long, overall length wrong, splashers wrong size – you get the
picture.

For the 'modified' engines, Bachmann produced an RTR model in the
early 1990s that was OK, if some way off the current benchmark. It
needs work to make it look right and a bit of refining/re-detailing.
Tender was normally Collett 4000-gal but a few have floated around
with Hawkesworth 4000-gallon flat-side tenders as per the "County'
from the same stable. Quite prototypical - quite a few 'Modifieds'
had this tender. Chassis-wise, good specimens ran OK, but they were
pretty variable. I think Gibson do a conversion set with the right
axle diameter for the Bachmann mech, although personally for P4 I'd
junk it and fit a Comet LCP 25 etched chassis kit which looks better,
allows suspension and takes a decent drivetrain.

The standard Collett "Hall' is a glaring omission from the ranks of
modern RTR; there were 258 of the darn' things, after all, and they
turned up pretty well everywhere. Given the degree of commonality
with the 'Grange' (effectively a 'Hall' with 5'8" wheels), an RTR
Collett 'Hall' would be a no-brainer, surely; it would seem not
unlikely that Hornby might have a punt at it sometime soon. Be a
strong seller, I'd have thought.

Kit-wise, and ignoring the Finney version, the old (1964-vintage)
Wills 'Hall' was also made to fit that good ol' Triang B12 chassis
(so, once again, wrong wheelbase). However, it's not that difficult
to shunt the splashers around to suit the Comet chassis, when a
pretty reasonable model can result; I've built a couple like that.
However, for original GWR condition you need to loose the (BR-fitted)
fire-iron tunnel on the LHS, which is quite a bit more work. The kit
comes with a Collett 4,000-gallon tender but you can pair it with the
3500-gallon version from Saint/4-4-0 "County'/de Glehn, which SE
Finecast flog separately

More accurate was the Nu-Cast 1984-vintage kit, available in
different versions for original and modified locos with a variety of
tenders: 3500-Gallon Churchward, 4000-gallon Collett and 4000-gallon
Hawkesworth flat-sided. Wheelbase correct, detail reasonable,
castings fair, chassis execrable. Kit still (nominally) available
from Autocom.

DJH also made a pretty nice kit (Kit K56) for the Collett 'Hall' at
much the same time, which was pretty good above the footplate and
generally looked the business. Like the Wills version, it represents
the engines as running in late GWR/BR condition. But it had the usual
DJH dire chassis, again best replaced with the Comet offering. This
kit had the advantage of etched cabsides, tender coalplates and so on
plus some nice lost-wax bits and is probably the best bet for a non-
Finney kitbuilt Collett 'Hall' – if you can lay hands on one. Not
sure what the current status is.

Probably best to wait for Hornby to do the business...
Iain

Coincidentally I put a post on the S4forum earlier about the Wills Hall, (Eshton Hall according to the kit nameplates) Iain's post seemed to answer the question, but I have just compared my castings against the drawing in Russell and put a vernier on them and the splasher centres appear to be very close... how big is the discrepancy caused by the compromises for the B12 chassis? More glaringly seems to be the difference in size of the cab window.
Steve.

Bachmann seem to have produced a later model in the '49xx' series:
http://railsofsheffield.com/hall-class-4970-sketty-hall-great-western-green-collett-tender-32-004-JJJA10074.aspx
I'd be interested to know if anyone's had experience of this? I've not seen one myself as I don't tend to follow the RTR market.
Steve

The Bachmann Hall is the Collett one, not the modified Hawksworth.
The DJH kit has an inaccurate mixture of Collett and Hawksworth dimensions
at the front end.
Hornby will not do the Collett Hall because of its agreement with Bachmann
on who would do the Hall and who would do the Grange.
regards
Russ Elliott

thanks for that Russ, it is the original Collet version I'm interested in, so I guess I'll have to track down a Bachmann bodyshell - anyone interested in a Wills Finescale kit??
Steve

The info from various people about Hall models over the past couple of days
is really helpful - thanks to all.
I'm now thinking about the Bachmann Hall as being, perhaps, closest to what
I need. I've looked at some close up online pictures and it does seem to
capture the spirit and a lot of the deatil of the original pretty well to my
eye. Couild be that only a fairly small amout of body upgrading may be
needed.
What, though, about the chassis? Does anyone know if it has a sprung
(centre) axle a la Bachmann Pannier (which is in the same 32- Bachmann model
series as the Hall)? Ultrascale don't do a conversion wheel set but their
website suggests this is more about perceived low demand. If I have to get
"ordinary" wheels and axles from them or Gibson what, please, is the
Bachmann Hall axle diameter?
Supplementary question - was GWR lined green livery the same shade as early
BR lined green? I had always belived that it was. I ask because the current
Bachmann Hall with Collet tender is only available in GWR - but if the same
shade then I could "just" change the tender insignia and repaint the buffer
beams!
Again, my appreciation to all who have responded to date.
Chris McCarthy

Slight correction on my part, Stephen. It appears that Bachmann has done
both original and Modfied Halls. I've been looking at (not particularly
good) pictures of both, and I'm not convinced yet either is quite right at
the front end. There's a few of either type on ebay, but you definitely
won't get a bodyshell from Bachmann.
regards
Russ Elliott

The Hall has 3mm driving axles and a conversion wheelset is available
from Alan Gibson, see http://www.scalefour.org/ag/rewheellist.htm
and http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=762&start=0
Regards
Keith

[martin goodall]

Ultrascale will also produce loco driving wheels with 3mm moulded centres and 3mm axles if specifically ordered. Probably a better bet than other alternatives in terms of quality/accuracy, etc.

[Horsetan]

Interesting point Russ, the castings are certainly very crisp and clean, only problem is... there's no instructions in the box!

You can get instructions and spares sheets from South Eastern Finecast themselves. Give Dave Ellis a bell on 01342 824711. He has a fax machine and has even faxed sheets to me in the past, which:

1. saves him having to go to the post;
2. gives pretty much instant delivery.

[steve howe]

I have been reading with interest the recent Gerry Beale article in MRJ on the quality of newer RTR locomotives and their suitability for conversion to P4 for working layouts. Not being very well versed in the RTR market these days, can anyone advise me if:

A) the Bachmann Hall class currently being marketed has always been the same body moulding or has it been re-worked and re-released recently?

and B) has anyone any experience of a simple re-wheeling conversion of it to P4?

Steve

[grovenor-2685]

A) the Bachmann Hall class currently being marketed has always been the same body moulding or has it been re-worked and re-released recently?

See this message above, towards the end,
http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=762&p=6684#p5137
Regards
Keith