Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Julian Roberts
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:26 pm

Dave Holt wrote:I'm shortly going to have to decide whether to try and move the centre splashers outwards slightly to allow for some side play in that axle.
Dave.


Dave I expect you saw this from DaveB on the Frame Spacing thread? Perhaps you can get away without any sideplay on the middle wheel? I must say I was surprised to read it! - but I'm sure it makes sense considering the running clearance in P4. Just posting this in case it saves work that might be avoided?


davebradwell wrote: Have been using 16.2 over for years with axlebox flanges outside this. Most wheels need washers and everything goes round 1 metre curves - you need very little sideplay even at this radius because there is already clearance in the track, more so when the gauge is widened.

DaveB


Inspirational stuff, as always :thumb

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Will L
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Will L » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:29 pm

I agree Dave is making a really nice job of this, I am a fan of all those extra bits of plumbing as some up and coming posts of my own will show.

In terms of how much lateral clearance you need over the centre axle Dave, I think I can help a bit. If you read through the first page of my Track Gauge Widening, All You’ll Ever Need to Know thread, you will find that, as a by-product of the original discussion, I generated a spread sheet that will tell you all you need to know to get a locos with a variety of different wheelbases round any given curve. This separates out the effects of any gauge widening, the extra clearance you get courtesy of the P4 standards (as opposed to the S4 exact scale ones) and the impact of a bit of side play on the middle axle. Near the bottom of the page, the Spread sheet is available to download if you fancy having a play with it.

Dave Holt wrote:....The instructions warn to be careful not to distort local to the cab spectacle windows when folding the sides. This seems virtually impossible due to the lack of material to hold. So, despite using a hold-and-fold tool, the front plate did distort and had to be pressed back to shape afterwards...


Never had a hold-and-fold as I learned how to fold etched brass before they existed, and I remain happier with my own methods which involve flat surfaces a steel ruler and a craft knife. You do have to be careful to do it right to avoid the sort of distortion you describe. This means that the bit with the hole close to the bend is held firmly against the flat surface with the ruler and the bit away from the hole is bent up. I presume something similar is possible with the hold and fold. However, it is made much easier if you deepen the fold line with a triangular needle file, until a witness line shows through. You get a sharper corner as well, but only one go at making the bend as it will snap if you try to bend it again. This tip I learned from Danny Pinnock for doing the long folds on his D&S coach kits. I do wonder what it does to DaveBs bend allowances though.

Bill Newstead
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Bill Newstead » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:17 am

For small parts which don't warrant getting the bending bars out a steel rule can be clamped in the hold and fold. This ensures the rule will not move and keeps both hands free for the bending. I'm another who picked up the use of a triangular file from Dan Pinnock's instructions. This works very well but I did worry about what it was doing to the accuracy of the bend line and these days use the back of a no. 10 scalpel blade.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:28 pm

Thanks for the helpful suggestions and comments.
Regarding the required side play in the axles and splasher clearances, I have been following the discussions about frame spacing and had read Dave Bradwell's thoughts, but thanks Julian.
Will, thanks for the reference to your gauge widening spread sheet. I tried it with 0.5 mm side play on the centre axle and it appeared to require minimal gauge widening for a 1200 mm radius - about the minimum I would hope the loco will cope with. I've probably complicated the issue by also allowing some side play at the rear axle.
Anyway, I decided to check for short circuits between wheels and splashers with the wheels pushed over as far as the side play allows and was pleasantly surprised to find none, even on the centre axle. So, I've decided not to move the centre splashers out but will apply a thin smear of superglue to the inside faces to act as insulation just in case of a momentary kiss if the axle twists in the cross plane due to track irregularities.
On occasions, I have resorted to filing out bend lines and even used an Olfa cutter to widen/deepen fold lines, but only on scratch made items or where I thought the width of the etched line relative to the material thickness was inadequate. I've never done etching art work, but I assume the the material is considered to bend on the neutral axis of the remaining metal below the half etched bend line? If so, altering the bend line will affect the dimensions of the finished piece.
Dave.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:21 pm

Looking a bit more like a re-built Royal Scot.
Scot_085.JPG

Dave.

davebradwell
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby davebradwell » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:14 am

I started this earlier but it seems to answer your comment Dave. Assuming that here we are referring to the usual model fold along an etched line but if you change the geometry of a bend in any way, as in making it sharper, then it will not come out as the designer intended - or rather thought he intended. He may, of course, have made an allowance for the slightly different result that comes from running a file or whatever down the bend and given instructions to do so. By the time you're building the model the main aim is to get a tidy result and you're reliant on the designer to have worked it all out correctly. If it's any consolation the difference here isn't great - each bend probably moves by up to 0.1mm in each direction depending how much vigour you apply.

DaveB

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:22 pm

The main structure of the cab is now complete, ready to fit to the footplate once the splasher tops are fitted.
The outer wrapper, various rain strips, roof ventilator and side beading have been added to the inner frame and the temporary stiffening plate removed from inside.
Scot_086.JPG

Scot_087.JPG

Dave.

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barrowroad
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby barrowroad » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:16 pm

Coming along nicely Dave - the Scot looks great.

Robin

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:14 pm

Thanks, Robin.
How's progress with Barrow Road?
Dave.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:24 am

Whilst pondering the need to move the centre splashers outwards to avoid the risk of shorting, I indicated that I would try the chassis out on the tightest curves on my layout. I've finally got round to doing this before fitting the splasher tops, thus enabling a visual check from above that the centre wheels do not touch inside the splashers.
Even on the tightest curve - leading to the mill coal siding, it was clear that no contact was being made. Phew!
Here the chassis is seen on the cross-over into the loop/yard and also on the very sharply curved (about 900 mm radius, I think) mill siding approach, which a Scot would never be required to negotiate in practice.
Scot_088.JPG

Scot_089.JPG

Scot_090.JPG

The layout boards have been stored indoors for some time, but I was surprised how badly rusted some lengths of the steel rail had become whilst other sections had remained clean and shiny looking. Odd that it hadn't all reacted the same.
Dave.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:33 pm

Not too much to show, but the cab has been fixed to the footplate and the splasher tops fitted (not in that order!). A couple of small splashers have been created to fit inside the cab front. These are necessary to cover the wheels after parts of the footplate and cab front have been cut away to clear the rear wheels. Up till now, the footplate has been resting on top of the wheels, preventing compression of the springs and leading to some wear marks just from pushing the loco back and forth. It runs a lot freer now there's clearance.
The cab floor has been trimmed to fit and temporarily slotted into place together with the cast back-head. This latter needed trimming to fit round the existing kit splashes and the added extensions.
Chassis with footplate fastened in position and the back-head casting cut away to clear the new splasher arrangements.
Scot_091.JPG

The small addition splasher on the RHS can be seen inside the cab. They are a bit bigger than scale, but I wanted to be certain they would clear the wheel flanges with the suspension fully compressed.
Scot_093.JPG

Here the cast back-head is tried in position.
Scot_092.JPG

Dave.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:01 pm

Footplate overlays now fitted. Valance overlays next, then battle commences with the outside motion bracket. Looks like a pig to form to the correct shape.
Overlays in place. You might notice that, in handling the assembly, I've managed to snap off two of the sand box filler plates. Hopefully, they wont be too hard to re-attach.
Scot_094.JPG

Dave.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:40 pm

Oh dear! Today has been one of disaster followed by partial recovery.
I anticipated that the outside valve gear support frame/bracket would be very difficult to form into its rather complex shape. The first bends went OK but then, when I tried to form the required 1/8" radius 90 degree bends disaster struck and various parts of the etch broke off at the half etched bend lines. So, instead of having a single, complex item, I had about eight separate pieces.
All the modelling time since has been taken up by trying to re-attach the various pieces, using the chassis and footplate as a jig to locate parts for soldering.
In the end, I've got the frame re-assembled except for the parts that go under the slide bars. I've decided it will be best to leave these till after the slide bars have been fixed to the upper section.
Now, where's that darkened room?
Two shots showing the current state. Some cleaning up of excess solder is required.
Scot_095.JPG

Scot_096.JPG

Dave.

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johndarch
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby johndarch » Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:57 am

Commiserations Dave, glad you managed to get the problem sorted. It's all looking very good.

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45609
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby 45609 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:55 am

Oh dear Dave, that's a bit annoying. Glad you've made progress towards fixing it. I'm sure that this must be a case of not using the right materials for the job. Kit designers take note. While nickel silver looks nice and is easier to solder it is undoubtedly less forgiving of folding and forming operations. Brass would have probably survived the mechanical strains and caused you much less anxiety.

Despite this, overall, the project is looking fantastic and progressing very well. Nice work!

Cheers...Morgan

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:25 pm

Thanks for the comments and commiserations.
Continuing with the valve gear frame/bracket, a substantial tie bar has been fixed across the front to hold the sides together once the centre section of the front plate is removed. On the real thing, this plate across the frames does not exist, with the external brackets rivetted to the outside of the frames. On the model, the arrangement works well but interferes with the inside motion, and in particular, with the expansion link and its supports.
Here's the formed and re-assembled unit with the new tie attached, prior to cutting the centre section away.
Scot_097.JPG

And after removal of the centre section. The new cross tie also represents the top flange of the inside motion stretcher where the front feet of the boiler sit.
Scot_098.JPG

The modified support frame now allows the inside motion plate to be fitted.
Scot_099.JPG

Scot_100.JPG

Seen here with the footplate in position.
This work now allows the inside motion bracket to be fixed into the chassis and rear end of the slide bars. The inside motion can then be assembled and fixed in position.
Rather looking forward to this after the stress of sorting the fractured motion frame.
Dave.
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Scot_101.JPG

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Horsetan
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Horsetan » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:17 pm

Dave Holt wrote:Oh dear! Today has been one of disaster followed by partial recovery.
I anticipated that the outside valve gear support frame/bracket would be very difficult to form into its rather complex shape. The first bends went OK but then, when I tried to form the required 1/8" radius 90 degree bends disaster struck and various parts of the etch broke off at the half etched bend lines. So, instead of having a single, complex item, I had about eight separate pieces.....


How have you coped with the lack of diagrams in this kit, Dave? When it was first released, I think Stephen Williams did a build in MRJ 149 and remarked that the absence of the kind of exploded drawings supplied in previous Brassmasters kits was a bit of a hindrance.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:52 pm

Ivan, you're quite right. The lack of diagrams in this kit does make it more difficult to assemble. The written instructions are very comprehensive and there are a couple of sketches, including the dreaded valve gear frame, but there have been a couple of areas where I haven't been sure which way round bits fit and I haven't got on to the small details yet. Assembly drawings, as included in the Black 5 and Jubilee kits, would be a great help. Perhaps I'm fortunate that I've already built several Brassmasters LMS 4-6-0 kits and I also have a good understanding of, and good information about, the prototype locos.
The inside valve gear has now been fitted.
A bit of dressing of the crosshead was required to get a smooth action in the slide bars over the whole stroke. I also discovered that the eccentric could not be located without removing the crank axle from the frames. I can see this being required more frequently than the other axles, so I decided to split the one-piece keeper plate between the leading and middle axle so, in future, the crank axle can be removed without disturbing the others.
After some filing back the lower rear edge of the reverser inner lifting arm, to clear the crank bob weight on full compression of the suspension, I'm pleased to sat it all turns smoothly with no detectable tight spots.
Here's the inside connecting rod and combination lever fitted to the frames, seen from above and below.
Scot_102.JPG

Scot_103.JPG

Then the full gear assembled. There's not much clearance between the front corners of the expansion link and the motion plate and new cross stay for the outside support frame. Still, a miss is as good as a mile, as they say.
Scot_106.JPG

Scot_107.JPG

Scot_105.JPG

Dave.
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Scot_104.JPG

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Mike Garwood
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Mike Garwood » Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:42 pm

That Sir, is bloody impressive!!

Mike

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45609
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby 45609 » Tue Dec 01, 2020 8:51 pm

^ What he said. That looks pretty special Dave

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Dave Holt » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:45 am

Thanks for the kind words. I must admit, I'm rather pleased by how it all fits and runs smoothly, considering it's mishmash of parts from left over etches and a few scratched bits.
Dave.

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barrowroad
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby barrowroad » Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:25 pm

Wow and wow! The Scot looks superb Dave, well done.

Robin

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johndarch
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby johndarch » Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:59 pm

Couldn't have put it better myself Robin. Keep up the good work Dave.

David Catton
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby David Catton » Wed Dec 02, 2020 6:50 pm

I'm not normally one for "me too" comments but this is truly exceptional modelling.

I hope to see the completed model eventually - it will be a sight for sore eyes!

Paul Hutfield
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Re: Brassmasters Rebuilt Royal Scot, 46109

Postby Paul Hutfield » Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:41 pm

Seriously impressive Dave! You've already set a very high standard of build with your previous results, but this is taking it to another level! Fantastic stuff!


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