Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

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Paul Willis
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Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby Paul Willis » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:47 am

Good morning all,

I have a question that I'd like to tap the wisdom of the Society to see if it can be answered...

Some of you who have seen my Beer & Buckjumpers workbench will be aware that I am currently building a High Level chassis kit to go under an upgraded Airfix GWR 48xx body. This is away from my normal interests, but given the popularity of the prototype, I have been able to gather a fair amount of detailed photos.

As a change to the usual late British Railways lined green and renumbered 14xx that so many models seem to be, I'l building mine as one of the first series of 48xx, circa 1934 with the GREAT WESTERN unlined green livery in which they were initially produced. There are relatively few pictures from this early period, and none that I've found taken from the rear (which I'll come on to).

My build is actually running well ahead of the pace at which I've been finding time to write it up. I'm now at the stage of re-detailing the body after carving a lot of detail off it. This is the current state of the bunker:

IMG_6816.JPG


So my question: does anyone have definitive evidence of the earliest 48xx being equipped with a top rear lamp iron?

- there appears to be no trace of it in the opening photo in the article on 48xx in GWRJ 22, which is a rear view of a loco of the period I want, BUT it has a very full coal load.

- The GA drawing in the article, dated 1932, does show a lamp iron, but inside the bunker where the photo above could have it hidden by the coal.

- The preserved 14xx (someone kindly gave me a link to a large number of detail photos for reference) does have a top lamp iron, but outside the bunker:

48xx prototype (9).jpg


- and I have a couple of other early photos where again the lamp iron isn't visible.

So I am wondering whether it was fitted to all locomotive when built (instinct says it should be), whether it ended up being impractical because of the location being *inside* the bunker, and whether that resulted in it being moved outside the bunker as in the preserved example.

I'm not being 100% rivet counter-ish with this build, but this is quite prominent so I'd like to work the odds on getting it correct.

Does anyone else have any evidence or thoughts?

Cheers
Flymo
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Neil Smith
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby Neil Smith » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:36 am

For what it's worth, see below for a link to a photo of a 58xx bunker in GWR days (tanks lettered GWR not Great Western) which clearly shows that the top lamp iron was mounted inside the top of the bunker with two rivets appearing on the outer face of the back plate of the bunker. See http://www.gwr.org.uk/4-coupled-pics/58 ... nction.jpg
Not definitive, but as the 58s were built in tandem with the 48s to the same design barring the auto equipment, it is at least a pointer..
All the best
Neil

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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby stevemcclary » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:26 am

Here is a picture I found when trying to solve the same problem for my early 48xx. It's not very clear, but appears to show the lamp iron on the inside.

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrb773.htm

My attempt was a little easier, using a Hatton's body with no top-feed to cut off.

Best wishes,
Steve

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Noel
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby Noel » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:20 am

According to Brian Haresnape's Pictorial History of Collett and Hawksworth Locos, the first batch was 4800-29 in 1932-3, and the second batch was 5800-19 [not auto fitted] in 1933. The picture of 5801 [which is post-1942] shows one of the second batch with the lamp iron inside the bunker, so the chance of the first batch not matching this is when built is vanishingly small, I would think. 4814 has the rivets for a lamp iron in the same place, and nothing externally; there is a darker shape immediately to the left of the bright area visible in the RHS glass, which would seem to be the lamp iron. The lamp iron, incidentally, seems to be offset slightly to the LHS [the Fireman's side] when compared to the handrails, so that the lamp would probably sit centrally on the top of the bunker edge [GW lamps had clips on both sides, so the lamp could also be put on offset]. The lamp iron is still inside the bunker in 9643 [an 8750 class 0-6-0PT] photographed being built in 1946, so it was a standard practice at Swindon.
Regards
Noel

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Paul Willis
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby Paul Willis » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:05 pm

Thank you all for the replies.

I feel that confirms my suspicion that:

- the early locomotives were built with the lamp iron inside the bunker

- most photos show this covered by coal (presumably loading to the max given the small overall capacity)

- it was later moved outside to prevent this.

As Noel mentions, because of the side loops of GWR lamps. the lamp irons are offset. It's particularly noticeable when looking straight on at the alignment with the buffers:

48xx prototype (21).jpg


And I agreed that on the picture of 4814, there is a dark mark of the lamp iron visible, which is absolutely perfectly aligned with the cab window edge. Mt Sod and his Law comes to plague modellers again...

48xx lampiron.JPG


So I think that tomorrow evening I'll be fabricating a lamp iron and fitting it inside the bunker... When I come to replace the coal with real stuff, I'll have to be careful to not bury it - just like the real thing...

Cheers
Flymo
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seanmcs
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby seanmcs » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:01 pm

I recently got a copy of Great Western Railway Locomotives 14xx and 58xx 0-4-2Ts. On page 83 thereisa clear view of 1449 in July 1958. The rear lamp is mounted on a lamp iron that is invisible, but the rivets below indicate that the iron is attached on the inside of the bunker.

On p 56 there is a less clear rear view, this time of 1421 in September 1958. No lamp this time despite the loco ready to take off rear first. The rear iron is clearly mountd within the bunker.

Still torn between using the rebuilt Airfix body and the Rice designed replacement kit, or the Hatton body. As just decded on a rather small layout as in Rice's Layout Design p 44, maybe I should have both! On High Level chassis. Following with interest.

Sean in Sydney

Joe Newman
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby Joe Newman » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:09 am

Paul,

There is a good image of the rear end of 5801at Dovey Junction at

http://www.gwr.org.uk/no4-coup-tanks.html

Although the loco is in GWR livery, according to Peto's Register it was only at Machynlleth from 1955 so this is presumably a photo in BR days.

You will find it at the very end of the section.

Hope this is helpful - I find this thread very interesting.

Best wishes.

Joe

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Paul Willis
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby Paul Willis » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:40 pm

seanmcs wrote:I recently got a copy of Great Western Railway Locomotives 14xx and 58xx 0-4-2Ts. On page 83 thereisa clear view of 1449 in July 1958. The rear lamp is mounted on a lamp iron that is invisible, but the rivets below indicate that the iron is attached on the inside of the bunker.

On p 56 there is a less clear rear view, this time of 1421 in September 1958. No lamp this time despite the loco ready to take off rear first. The rear iron is clearly mountd within the bunker.

Still torn between using the rebuilt Airfix body and the Rice designed replacement kit, or the Hatton body. As just decded on a rather small layout as in Rice's Layout Design p 44, maybe I should have both! On High Level chassis. Following with interest.

Sean in Sydney


Sean,

Thanks for the extra confirmation on the location of the lamp iron. It's definitely going in.

A question for you - do you have the Hattons body already? I haven't seen one in the flesh, but I believe they are a bit of a pig to get apart and fit onto the High Level chassis.

A google on RMWeb should produce Captain Kernow's blog on the story.

Anyway, I'll try and flag up any tips and pointers on the Airfix route on Beer & Buckjumpers as I go along, hoping that helps...

Cheers
Flymo
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stevemcclary
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby stevemcclary » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:47 am

Flymo,

I have had a go using the Hatton's body on a high-level chassis, It went reasonably well.

Image

It is a bit of a pig to get apart, but not so bad if you are not intending to use the chassis. The main problem is all the pipe detail. I followed Captain Kernow's guide and didn't do any damage.

The only main fault with the body was the position of the backhead in the cab, the removal of the glazing and other sundries let me position it in a much more prototypical position. From memory the only other alteration was the removal of the bunker steps to reflect the loco as-built.

If I did this again, I would probably try to retain the Rear Wheel carriers from the model rather than use the High level ones.

Best wishes,
Steve

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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby seanmcs » Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:48 pm

Paul:

Yes, I have the Hattons 58xx model. And as well the same body as you are working on. Trying to decide on which one to attempt. The Hatton one is always going to look better than my attempt to remake the Airfix one. By the way, there is a detailed description of dismantling the Hatton body on this site (an article I can no longrr find) that Capt K acknowleged as a better way to go.

Best. Sean

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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:38 am

seanmcs wrote:Paul:

Yes, I have the Hattons 58xx model. And as well the same body as you are working on. Trying to decide on which one to attempt. The Hatton one is always going to look better than my attempt to remake the Airfix one. By the way, there is a detailed description of dismantling the Hatton body on this site (an article I can no longrr find) that Capt K acknowleged as a better way to go.

Best. Sean


Sean,

In due course I'll come to describing the various steps on the body - I've been taking plenty of pictures along the way.

But what I would say, is that if you take the Airfix route, and intend to have a post-1936 locomotive, the only really major surgery is removing and replacing the chimney and the smokebox door. Both of which are easily accessible and had little risk of damaging anything else. Those two really do make the model look significantly better.

Everything else, such as handrails, is a matter of how much you want to finesse the original Airfix model. It's your train set, and the three foot rule can always apply. My own modelling doesn't take me as far as some of these wonderful lubricators and injectors that people like PeteT and DaveH are making to go on their Big Engines. It doesn't stop me admiring them though.

Cheers
Flymo
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Noel
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby Noel » Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:36 am

Flymo748 wrote:But what I would say, is that if you take the Airfix route, and intend to have a post-1936 locomotive, the only really major surgery is removing and replacing the chimney and the smokebox door. Both of which are easily accessible and had little risk of damaging anything else.


It rather depends on which one you want to model; quite a few kept boilers without topfeed until withdrawal, or had acquired them on boiler changes during their lifetimes. There were quite a lot of boilers without topfeed in the pool for 48xx(14xx) and 58xx. It was not something Swindon was concerned about; as with other classes, such as some pannier tanks, a replacement boiler fitted at a change could be older than the original (and the new build loco may not have had a brand new boiler to start with).
Regards
Noel

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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby Enigma » Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:56 am

Toolbox position on the splashers seems to vary as well. I used the Airfix body on mine, the one I've numbered it as had the splashers in a different position to the Airfix ones - but I decided that it was an awful lot of trouble to try and change them. If you don't tell anyone they're wrong then I won't either :thumb

seanmcs
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby seanmcs » Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:54 pm

Paul:

I've removed the safety valve, chimney and smokebox door from the Airfix. . I got a hold of a brass turned chimney from Alan Gibson that looks better than the w/m one in the kit.

One thing that really stands oi\ut on these 48xx 58xx locos is the very prominent rivets on the buffer beams and smokebox sides. Largeer than normal. The ones on the Hatton model are relatively good, but not quite big enough and not the original pattern exactly. But the Airfix ones are so small that I filed them off. Giving myself no alternative to using my (now rusted up) American riveting machine on some thin brass or nickel silver to glue on, or applying American decals...

Sean

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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby seanmcs » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:51 am

Oh! And the top feed gone.

Sean

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Paul Willis
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:00 am

seanmcs wrote:One thing that really stands oi\ut on these 48xx 58xx locos is the very prominent rivets on the buffer beams and smokebox sides. Largeer than normal. The ones on the Hatton model are relatively good, but not quite big enough and not the original pattern exactly. But the Airfix ones are so small that I filed them off. Giving myself no alternative to using my (now rusted up) American riveting machine on some thin brass or nickel silver to glue on, or applying American decals...

Sean


Yes, Iain Rice commented on those in his article in MRJ. Do you have that? If not, let me know and I'll email a scan. All background notes can be helpful.

In the article, he suggests at the end that if he was doing the detailing again, he'd make new buffer beams with better rivet detail.

I'm not going that far, as I don't want to carve off and replace the buffers - this is only a side project after all. But I may well rub them down, and reinstate with little cubes of plastic. To be decided...

Cheers
Flymo
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seanmcs
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby seanmcs » Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:03 am

Paul:

Thanks. I have that article.

I realise it is going a bit far, but my ambitions for a long layout have been diminished by moving to a charning, sunlit apartment that has left me with one board for a layout. And with a few P4 locos already, two with sound, I still need one or two 48-58xxs. And then rivets are so prominent, I'll succumb to that for one at least. I've asked Dave at LMS to consider 8 rivet Collett sprung buffers for these little guys, since you are featuring the build, and others might follow.

We are in winter now, so some time to model, and our Queensland break is blocked by the QLD government closure of the border. Confirmed by some rogue from Victoria who just went in there with the virus...

By the way, I have derusted the Micro-Mark multipurpose device and put it into rivet embossing mode. For the embossing, there are 5 small dies or anvils at the bottom, and 5 rivet punches. So there is an exact fit between the two; no hole below that might allow a different rivet profile depending on the force of the rivet punch. So, within reasonable pressure each size pair of punch/dies should produe identical results. Playing with the edge of an earlier version of the 48xx High Level fret with no etched rivets there, so full thickness, produced nice rivet shapes in two sizes.

Sean

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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby seanmcs » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:41 am

Paul:

The Hattons body list is under DJ Models 14xx on High Lavel Chassis. I found more material by using the related search tool on our site.

Not an easy job it seems and also some comments about the chassis build.

All good.

Sean

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Paul Willis
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That GWR 48xx lamp iron

Postby Paul Willis » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:34 pm

Just to wrap this to a close...

One nickel silver rear lamp iron fixed into place. Melted into the plastic to locate it, then firmly fixed with a blob of epoxy resin on top to make sure it can't be caught and "pinged" off.

IMG_6949.JPG


The roof is only temporarily in place, hence the cracks at the sides. I wanted to look at the lamp iron in context, to ensure that the height was of the right proportion against the height of the cab.

Cheers
Paul
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Winander
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby Winander » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:13 am

Paul,

Steve's picture from Warwickshire Railways posted on 2nd June shows the heads of a couple of rivets holding it on... ;)

all the best
Richard
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Paul Willis
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby Paul Willis » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:52 am

Winander wrote:Paul,

Steve's picture from Warwickshire Railways posted on 2nd June shows the heads of a couple of rivets holding it on... ;)

all the best
Richard


Richard,

Who said P4 modellers aren't rivet-counters? ;-)

IMG_6992.JPG


Cheers
Paul
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Paul Willis
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Re: Q: GWR 48xx lamp irons

Postby Paul Willis » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:58 am

PS - I've also just taken that etching cusp off the edge of the lamp-iron.

It's been annoying me ever since I first saw it in the close-up photo.

Cheers
Paul
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