Martin Finney V2

DougN
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Martin Finney V2

Postby DougN » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:29 pm

Hi All,

I hope every one is well. I am at it again with not one but 2 Martin Finney V2's. Why 2? Well I was lucky enough to purchase a second kit after the first has been around for about 5 years. Any how Kit 1 has a tender complete and painted in black at the moment, with the chassis wheeled, quartered and rolling acceptably. So when I received Kit number 2 I thought I should do both in parallell, It takes less effort to do 2 as the instructions need to be reviewed only once and constructed twice.

Now I have both Chassis approaching the same point which is my latest sticking point. I have lost any clearance to the front crank pin/ cross head/ slid bar area. The instructions recommend removing one lamination of the slid bars, yeap done that, use a recessed crank pin/nut, yeap working on that using Ultra scale recessed nut on Gibson screw, remove any side ways movement of the front axle, will do but this is not causing the problem, but I still seem to be lacking any room.


I have a solution which is not elegant, and that is to file/ recess the front rods for the retainer but I think the problem may still exist!

Has any one built one of these beasties and managed to solve the clearance issues?

I will grab a few photos tonight for reference!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

Philip Hall
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby Philip Hall » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:56 pm

Doug,

I had some dealings with a Proscale V2 some years ago which came to me for repair after some altercations with the Post Office, and I remember clearances being tight at the front end. It worked just fine so the original builder must have sorted some kind of solution.

Without seeing the engine could I suggest that, if it’s not been done already, to cut the boss of the wheel down so it is flush with the front of the tyre. I believe a Gresley wheel is flush? Then of course the usual width for a tyre is 2mm which is of course a trifle oversize; it might just be possible to thin down the front of the tyre a touch, although with a Gibson wheel the front face is quite thin to start with...

Philip

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Horsetan
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby Horsetan » Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:39 am

DougN wrote:...I have lost any clearance to the front crank pin/ cross head/ slid bar area. The instructions recommend removing one lamination of the slid bars, yeap done that, use a recessed crank pin/nut, yeap working on that using Ultra scale recessed nut on Gibson screw, remove any side ways movement of the front axle, will do but this is not causing the problem, but I still seem to be lacking any room.

....I will grab a few photos tonight for reference!


Here's one I was sent recently.....

IMG-20191123-WA0003.jpg
That would be an ecumenical matter.

DougN
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby DougN » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:12 am

Thanks Horse,

yes that is the problem. I will grab more photos tonight! (OK I had forgotten that I had sent that to you!) :thumb
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

davebradwell
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby davebradwell » Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:40 am

Yes, you'll need to file faces of wheels flush with tyres. They'll still be wider than scale but should fit. You can skim wheels down to the scale 1.85 thickness too if you have the facilities (front flange on tyre should be thick enough - it's usually 0.3) and any of these changes mean you have to shorten the axle of course. I usually modify all wheels to take Ultrascale crankpins as you can't just do 2 and would also suggest that, whatever crankpins you fit, you use a tapped one on the centre to improve the security of the return crank. I've been known to use thinner washers behind the rods on the front crankpins. Dave Holt has developed a way round need for lathe in all of this.

Thanks for the reminder, I've assembled the frames but it needs to move on.

DaveB

DougN
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby DougN » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:31 am

Thanks Dave, I will have to spend some time with these over the coming long weekend, taking the wheels back in thickness. I will do all 6 drivers. I have a few ultrascale crank pins to use up so I will change both locos over.

Once I was back home last weekend I found I have ultrascale crank pins which solved another problem on another loco which I have had for the same length of time for a friend! So that will be another little project finished! :thumb

Thanks again

Doug
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Horsetan
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby Horsetan » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:33 am

davebradwell wrote:Yes, you'll need to file faces of wheels flush with tyres. They'll still be wider than scale but should fit. You can skim wheels down to the scale 1.85 thickness too if you have the facilities (front flange on tyre should be thick enough - it's usually 0.3) ....


Or possibly have bespoke tyres made by Ultrascale using their recently introduced service?
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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BryanJohnson
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby BryanJohnson » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:01 pm

Not a V2 but the left hand side of GWR Prairie 6106 at Didcot, but it shows how little clearance there can be on the prototype between a crosshead and coupling rod boss. If that axle has any side play, then there'll be trouble.
Attachments
Slidebar clearance 6106.jpg

Crepello
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby Crepello » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:25 pm

Horsetan wrote:
davebradwell wrote:Yes, you'll need to file faces of wheels flush with tyres. They'll still be wider than scale but should fit. You can skim wheels down to the scale 1.85 thickness too if you have the facilities (front flange on tyre should be thick enough - it's usually 0.3) ....


Or possibly have bespoke tyres made by Ultrascale using their recently introduced service?


Which leads to needing bespoke centres or the same facilities Dave had in mind in order to skim down the AGW centres. Or pray productively for whatever problem is impeding the reintroduction of the Exactoscale drivers to be overcome.

davebradwell
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby davebradwell » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:48 pm

I think the 2-6-* is the worst arrangement for clearances - my K1 took careful design but I was ahead of the game on the V3. Didn't the GW use wider cylinders but this just allowed them to put a boss on the wheels.

I've always just held the whole wheel by the flange in soft jaws and skimmed 6 thou' off the front of everything - tyre, centre, the lot so it's all flush. Just keep filing if no machining facility. This after an initial check of the wheel for concentricity mounted on a slightly tapered mandrel just under the 1/8" diameter. If there's an issue I pop off the tyre and gently skim the outside of the plastic centre.

If using Ultrascale crankpins the original crank hole needs enlarging to a clearance (1mm) on the screw so that the position of the pins is defined solely by the 1.3 counterbore (or whatever size they are) and not influenced by the screw. Don't make the counterbores too deep - the Ultrascale site used to give a wrong dimension. Although it's desirable to use a drill jig to produce the counterbores, I did at first just drill into the moulded hole allowing the thing to centre itself.

While on the topic of modifications, you might think about changing the Cartazzi springing. I'm familiar with 8 or 9 running LNER Finneys and the single centre spring is poor at keeping these wheels on the track when reversing. They've all been changed to a pair of springs, 1 each side, and are much better for it. A screw adjust is desirable, too, to optimise the weight without losing much traction. Logic suggests the pony would benefit from a similar change. I'll see if I can scrounge details but it may take a while. Meanwhile Dave Holt has detailed his scheme for a pony truck.

DaveB

DougN
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby DougN » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:09 am

Thanks Dave,

Yes I am rather keen on the idea of dual spring to the rear Cartazzi a photo or diagram and I will have the change on both locos!

I don't have a lathe but I see it would be a good idea.... I have done some turning in a night class years ago. I can see I will end up at some point buying one but not for a while as I have run out of space! So it is out with the files and sand paper! Just as well I have a good supply.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

DougN
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby DougN » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:41 am

Thanks goes to Dave B. for the recommendation to take the bosses off the wheels. Now I have measured them and the wheels over all are now 2mm. I was amazed that I needed to take off 0.75mm off the axle lengths. So the wheels started looking like wheel on the right... to look like the wheel on the left!
DSC_0480.JPG


I have also reduced the coupling rod at the front crank pin to recess the crank pin nut to the front rod. This ended up being about a quarter of the thickness of rod. (this is a lamination of 2 pieces of nickle silver). This is fairly obvious in this next photo.

DSC_0481.JPG


The way I reduced the boss was to use a fine file to reduce the boss except where the crank pin was where I used a scaple to slice the plastic carefully back. In the reassembly I managed to snap a crank pin :evil: and one of the balance weights fell off! the latter is not too bad but I was concerned that I may not get the crank pin out as I have previously tried one which would not budge! the broken one screwed out very easily. (I usually superglue them into the wheels but this doesn't seem too hard to break at times.

The crank pin nut is a Ultrascale recessed nut which I found in an old collection from a friend who had passed away.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

ColinMcC
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby ColinMcC » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:03 pm

Clearances are quite tight on the V2. See attached pictures [taken at York at the Great Celebration].

IMG_1358.JPG


IMG_1360.JPG

DougN
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby DougN » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:13 pm

Thanks Colin, I will debate the idea of how much additional detail I will go to on the gear after these photos. My aim is for working models but there always needs to be a level of "robustness" needed to these items.

I was working through last night the wheels to the second loco, only to find that I had missed one set to be modified :( so I will see if I can get that done tonight. I have to go back over the fixing of the crank pin to the wheel as per the others on this list with a pin through the head of the bolt or a soldered wire across to fix in place.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Horsetan
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby Horsetan » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:56 am

DougN wrote:Thanks goes to Dave B. for the recommendation to take the bosses off the wheels. Now I have measured them and the wheels over all are now 2mm. I was amazed that I needed to take off 0.75mm off the axle lengths. So the wheels started looking like wheel on the right... to look like the wheel on the left!
DSC_0480.JPG.....


Oddly enough, I tried that on the AGW BR Std.5 6'2" wheel to see if flattening it would make it look more like the large boss wheels used on the Std. 6/7/8 Pacifics. It wasn't wholly successful, as the AGW boss was fairly small to start with.

So we still await proper BR Std. Pacific wheels. :roll:
That would be an ecumenical matter.

DougN
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby DougN » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:53 am

Bit of a productive weekend on the V2 front, the second has almost reached the same level of completeness as the first. Other than the layout starting to appear like Doncaster here are the 2 together.
IMG_0764.JPG


The difficulty of the slid bars has now been resolved
Loco 1
IMG_0765.JPG


Loco 2

IMG_0766.JPG

One thing I really have noticed is how quick number 2 has come together as there has been a lot less of what does part f11 look like and where can I find it on the fret!

Another thing is how good ultrascale crankpins are. I really don't think I will use the Alan Gibson any more as the ultrascale are better quality and seem to work better. Thankfully I have a collection from a modeller who passed away years ago so the stock of spares will be used for the foreseeable future!

One thing I noticed is my modelling seems to be just quicker now that the 2 are going. Number one solves the problems of how and where the bits cam from and number 2 falls together.

Also I figured out the other loco so that is back its owner this Friday!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

DougN
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby DougN » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:05 am

Well I have been managing to find a little time to drag the V2's forward again. However I have struck a snag. the cross heads and the slide bars. These are way too tight to get any where near a sliding fit. I have used the wheese of wet and dry glued to a sheet of brass to increase the dimensions but I am concerned that I am taking too much.... but more than likely way too little. Can any one suggest or even better give me a photo of how much they have taken off the cross head top to achieve a good fit?

I am really enjoying the build in parallel and I do find that building the pair of them is very quick as I dont have to play too much Where's Wally looking for the parts on the frett. Well once you have found one it is easier to find the second.

Oh the other thing is I keep looking at the chassis in their naked state and realise they really do look like the loco's they are supposed to be, which is not some thing I have experienced with other kits.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

davebradwell
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby davebradwell » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:19 am

The late John Hayes described the assembly of the very similar Finney A3 way back in MRJs 66 and 67. He ground an old fine flat needle file down very thin for about an inch to fettle the slidebars - says he didn't have to take much off to achieve smooth operation.

DaveB

DougN
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby DougN » Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:41 am

Yes thanks Dave. I have read that and did what is suggested by Martin Finney in the instructions. I have a idea that actually need rather than to take the instructions advice but to actually measure the items.

I have a silver lining to all the Covid 19 things going around is the idea of more time at home I could actually do a heap of modelling! As I have in excess of 9 weeks sick leave owing it could be a nice couple of weeks of modelling as I have all the things I need!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

DougN
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby DougN » Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:56 am

Well as the weekend activities seem to be rather constrained now due to activities being cancelled. I sat down yesterday to review the slid bar problem again. Back to the sand paper on the brass sheet, Then looking more closely the cross heads slot to the top was not clear enough, so out with the thin file, the top was cleaned as well. This managed to get one sliding nicely. The next 3 were a combination of this and opening the hole in cylinder gland up. Also I found that the distance from the slide bars to the gland vertically and horizontally didn't quite match. So the cylinder spindle was also cleaned up and thinned. So the result after about 2 hours was all 4 were moving under their own weight.

Tonight will be connecting the connecting rods to the cross heads! :thumb

I'll try and get a few photos tonight at the end of play.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

DougN
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby DougN » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:55 am

Ha success tonight! Cross heads, drop links and con rods all now part of a whole... didn't even manage to solder the whole lot solid once! How ever did manage to lose the second pair of cross heads under the OO layout by using a dremel! :evil:

However carpet god had been banished years ago but the understudy to him, the floor boards and a strategically place takeaway container! So both cross heads were herded back to the workbench and the operation completed on the next pair!

Now to read the next bit of the instructions.

A couple of pointers on the crossheads. Use a 1mm drill in a dremel to clean out the internal slot of the cross heads. Then also thin down the little end so it fits (I hope it is the little end as opposed to the big end which I ink is on the crank pin).

So I have now achieved what I needed to for the weekend which was to be a local group meeting here in Melbourne which due to a virus has been called off.... mores the pitty.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Will L
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby Will L » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:23 am

DougN wrote:However carpet god had been banished years ...


Doug, you must understand that while the GCG prefers a carpet he cannot be banished and is happy to seek sacrifices on any form of flooring.

DougN
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby DougN » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:29 am

Now that Australia has the virus and live has been put into a weird holding pattern with no public outings. We are all at home other than walking, shopping, or working. Everything else seems to revolve around home. Personally I am still working and needing to move around to site, to the office etc. So I still have to be up and about.

Anyhow as today was a home day were nothing needed to be done I decided that it was time to bite the valve gear! :o

So read the instruction, and again, and again. Study the drawings and repeat.

One thing I found was the radius rod was a little challenging. The instructions say use 0.3mm brass pins... the drawing however 0.45! My suggestion is use the 0.3!!! I suspect that the larger would be very difficult to drill and finally assemble. The flexibility of the 0.3 did come in useful. Now one thing that needs to be mentioned is parts M33 and M34 are not symmetrical the tag onto the fret is the lower edge! This is another handy tip.

I did find any slots need to be opened up. I used a drill bit in a dremel at high speed which only cuts a small amount from the slot. The challange is finding the drill bit that will cut enough but not too much. I am finding my drill bit collection handy as I measure each one I take it out of the silly slid box things. Some say a size but when measure are up too .04mm smaller. For just opening up holes I have made great use of my tapered broaches. Then using te jewellers wire wheel to tak off any burs.

Any how here's a photo or 2
IMG_0776.JPG

IMG_0778.JPG


I hope your finding the above interesting!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

DougN
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby DougN » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:13 am

Happy turn the clocks back to us. (Victoria NSW and I think tassie all turned our clocks back last night) so having an extra hour in the day... not much of a day really it has been raining all day, just to prove that I have to look at one of the down pipes to find out why it's not coping? :? Any how down the pair of V2's what has happened this weekend is the valve gear has now been joined by a few more bits. Seem to be getting pretty adept at pinned soldered joints. So using the sharpie pen again and power flow cream flux does seem to work very well. Any how
image.jpg



This is how it all turned out. The spindle to the valve is over length and needs to be cut back. But with it all stiff and in place as per the above photo does show it is all coming together nicely. It is all too stiff and needs a good clean (also 2 pin joints on this side still need to be done once everything is sliding and wiggling nicely. I have held off completing the slid bars support as this allows me to, test with just the connection rods which I really need to do before moving any further forward. The return cranks have not been set yet but the way that these were built on a M1 tap was frought but with whal oil on the tread the ultrascale nuts tighter to the crank they are very stiff. Again I used the power flow flux paste on the outside and high temp soldered them together.

Please ask questions if you have any as things seem to be working out.. my other strategic reserves are starting to get worried in their boxes as once I have figured out how these 2 go together the A4, A3, A1's are getting concerned that they will get built!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Horsetan
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Re: Martin Finney V2

Postby Horsetan » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:35 pm

Best before 1st June 2020 :?:
That would be an ecumenical matter.


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