GWR 44xx Kits

bordercollie
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GWR 44xx Kits

Postby bordercollie » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:54 am

Hi

I was just about to purchase a 4mm Malcolm Mitchel 44xx kit, when it became apparent that they are longer in production.

The alternatives are the Nu-cast white metal kit and the Falcon kit. I am not keen on a white metal as I understand they arn't up to the standards of other types of kits. I have read that the falcon kit is really difficult to make and is not for a beginner.

Are there any other options?

Best wishes

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steamraiser
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby steamraiser » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:16 am

Keep an eye on E-bay and make it known that you are after a MM 44xx kit.
White metal kits can produce a very good model with the addition of better detailing and an etched chassis.

Gordon A

nigelcliffe
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby nigelcliffe » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:21 am

The ones you mention are not in the same league as the Mitchell - would be like buying a 1970's Triang against this year's Hornby releases.

Placing a "wanted ad" in Scalefour News and/or MRJ, or searching ebay and other s/hand sales outlets may be a better bet: the vast majority of loco kits sold end up in gloat boxes, so either re-appear for s/hand sale or get dumped in house-clearances.

- Nigel

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JackBlack
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby JackBlack » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:51 am

nigelcliffe wrote:or get dumped in house-clearances.


The thought of that makes me want to cry...

Mitchell kits don't come up on eBay too often, but when they do they don't usually go for much more than the original price (IE around £100). Set up an eBay alert.

Jeremy Good
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby Jeremy Good » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:45 pm

The Churchward Models 45xx kit which was the precursor to the Malcolm Mitchell kit is still available from Phoenix Precision Paints.

Not sure whether this can be easily modified into the 44xx. Presumably the biggest difference is the wheel diameter which could possibly be accommodated by modifying the chassis?

Jeremy

Philip Hall
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:05 pm

Although similar in many respects, there are dimensional differences, not just with the wheel diameter (the exact wheel is still available from Ultrascale) but with the footplate, buffer beams and some other places. There was an article a long time ago by the late John Harrison on building a 44xx in 7mm scale, with a drawing and information on the differences between 45s and 44s. I still have it somewhere, so pm me if you are interested and I’ll try and find it.

The best route is still the Mitchell kit, and an article on building it was in an early MRJ. Again, I have that. But I would wait for a kit to come up.

Philip

DougN
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby DougN » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:55 pm

The Mitchell kits were available from David geen for a long time. I heard that his health resulted in the business running down/closing. There was a note that the Mitchell range had gone back to Pete waterman on RMweb, So I guess there is a possibly of it re appearing. Does any one have contact with Pete waterman to confirm? This might help to know what options there will be in the future.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Craig Warton
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby Craig Warton » Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:28 am

I had a look at my Mitchell 44 and 45 kits and realised that the 45 kit includes the majority of parts needed to do 45xx as an additional etch. I think that if you get a 45XX kit you may be able to convert it to a 44XX. That being said, the last 44XX I saw on Ebay was the one I snaffled as a buy it now with a set of Ultrascale P4 wheels and that was a while back. Have not seen a 45XX kit for a while either - it seems to be the big engine kits that appear!

Craig Warton

bordercollie
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby bordercollie » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:47 pm

Thanks for all the info

I will keep an eye on ebay etc. as suggested.

I think that for now I will look at the 45xx kit available from phoenix precision and hope to get a 44xx in the future. In MRJ 32 the editorial states that Malcolm Mitchell went to a great deal of effort to make the 44xx as simple as possible. Its not clear if this also applies to the 45xx kit. Does anybody know if the 45xx is a beginners Kit? Converting this kit to a 44xx is beyond me at this point.

Best wishes

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Horsetan
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby Horsetan » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:54 pm

DougN wrote:....There was a note that the Mitchell range had gone back to Pete waterman ....


I suspect Pete Waterman has many other pressing priorities, so I wouldn't expect any Mitchell kits to reappear any time soon. The Manor kit is unfortunately unlikely ever to reappear; it's my understanding that the artwork for the loco body went missing at around the time when David was first given permission to sell kits, so he never came into possession of it. Very big gap as I've been after a Manor for years.

bordercollie wrote:....In MRJ 32 the editorial states that Malcolm Mitchell went to a great deal of effort to make the 44xx as simple as possible. Its not clear if this also applies to the 45xx kit. Does anybody know if the 45xx is a beginners Kit? ...


The Churchward Models (Malcolm Mitchell's original range) 45xx predates the 44xx, but appears similar in style and design philosophy. One thing to beware of is that although the instructions are very comprehensive, they can also be quite badly photocopied and/or badly arranged.

Malcolm drew most of his assembly diagrams by hand so to save time, for example, the same diagrams were used for the chassis of the King, Castle and Star, whilst those for the engine body only had fairly minor tweaks to allow for the cabside style and inside cylinder block front. The Manor and Grange were also much the same as each other.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Philip Hall
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby Philip Hall » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:44 pm

Guy Williams considered that the kit could be regarded as a beginners kit (MRJ 32). I have two here, one not yet started, and another part built (not by me) and the part built one seems to have gone together very well. I have, however, put together some Mitchell crossheads many years ago, and found them a real fiddle!

Philip.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:32 am

Horsetan wrote:
DougN wrote:....There was a note that the Mitchell range had gone back to Pete waterman ....


I suspect Pete Waterman has many other pressing priorities, so I wouldn't expect any Mitchell kits to reappear any time soon. The Manor kit is unfortunately unlikely ever to reappear; it's my understanding that the artwork for the loco body went missing at around the time when David was first given permission to sell kits, so he never came into possession of it. Very big gap as I've been after a Manor for years.



Was it the artwork? Even if the original drawn artwork (or CAD files) goes missing, the etch tooling probably still exists at the etchers so the kit could be produced. I doubt that David Geen needed direct access to both, juts the authorisation to order the etches, unless that was done by Pete Waterman's organisation and then supplied to David

Other issues with reintroducing the kits might be the brass and w/m castings, unless the supplier(s) of these is still able to manufacture them or the original patterns still exist.

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Horsetan
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby Horsetan » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:01 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:
Horsetan wrote:
DougN wrote:....There was a note that the Mitchell range had gone back to Pete waterman ....


I suspect Pete Waterman has many other pressing priorities, so I wouldn't expect any Mitchell kits to reappear any time soon. The Manor kit is unfortunately unlikely ever to reappear; it's my understanding that the artwork for the loco body went missing at around the time when David was first given permission to sell kits, so he never came into possession of it. Very big gap as I've been after a Manor for years.



Was it the artwork? Even if the original drawn artwork (or CAD files) goes missing, the etch tooling probably still exists at the etchers so the kit could be produced. I doubt that David Geen needed direct access to both, juts the authorisation to order the etches, unless that was done by Pete Waterman's organisation and then supplied to David....


No artwork, and which etchers? Not sure David used the same firm as Malcolm.

David always told me that he had no artwork, and no etch tooling, whenever I enquired about the Manor.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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JackBlack
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby JackBlack » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:50 am

bordercollie wrote:Does anybody know if the 45xx is a beginners Kit?


I'm actually building the 45xx at the moment, there's a thread here about it (although my context is not about the actual kit, but making it radio controlled): https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=137&t=6599.

I would say it is a beginners kit compared to other Mitchell/Finney types of kits, it's fairly simple, goes together really easily and everything fits correctly. Just take it slowly and don't solder until you're happy everything is correct (I tend to get as far as I can through the build before soldering major assemblies together.

Also I noticed there was a 45xx on eBay recently that has a different chassis fret to mine, I guess maybe newer as it has three sets of spacers. Mine only has two sets so is a little narrow for P4.

It's also a very easy candidate for CSB should you wish to go down that route...

Cheers, Nick

billbedford
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby billbedford » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:20 am

Jol Wilkinson wrote:Was it the artwork? Even if the original drawn artwork (or CAD files) goes missing, the etch tooling probably still exists at the etchers so the kit could be produced. I doubt that David Geen needed direct access to both, juts the authorisation to order the etches, unless that was done by Pete Waterman's organisation and then supplied to David.


That's if the etchers have retained the artwork after all this time. Chempix have had had a number of corporate changes over the years and I believe have moved premises, G&H definitely have moved, so the fate of tooling that has not been used for 20? years is an open question.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

Alan Turner
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby Alan Turner » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:55 am

Interestingly the Churchward 45XX instructions refer to the 44XX.

They say a 44XX chassis would be produced in the future - obviously never done.

regards

Alan

Philip Hall
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:59 pm

Graham, I have sent an email to you regarding a kit.

Philip

Phil O
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby Phil O » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:49 pm

If it's of use I have a 44 and a couple of 45s in round tuit pile, I can dig them out and compare the etches to see what the differences are, apart from the smaller wheels and driving wheel spacings are different for the centre axle.

Cheers

Phil.

bordercollie
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby bordercollie » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:49 am

Thanks Phil O

I have done some reading and together with posts on this thread, leads me to the belief that the chassis of both classes are different and it wouldn't be easy to modify.

By the way I have been able to purchase a 44xx kit thanks to help I received on this post. Thanks.

bordercollie
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby bordercollie » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:12 am

I meant to post this as a new topic but I don't know how to do this

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grovenor-2685
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Re: GWR 44xx Kits

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:15 am

Looks like you have since succeeded. I have moved the replies to your new topic. "GWR Number Plates"
For others wondering the new topic button is on every subforum page. eg from here click 'return to steam locomotives' at the page foot.


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