Brassmasters Blk5 45232

[Julian Roberts]

That's so helpful Dave, thank you. Your last sentence, better than nothing, is very true I think, that's why I'm asking these rather nerdy questions below, even if my end product will be rather hit-and-miss (rather more of the miss while yours is the hit!)

Do you mind if I ask you, sorry to take up space on your thread, whether you can say from the photo below if there would be 4 pipes coming from each side of the lubricator, or two? - and do you know if I can get photos or drawings to have a stab at modelling the atomiser here with more information to hand than just this photo? I've found a second photo (though of another loco) but still can't see the number of pipes along the forward edge!

20200202_104849 (1).jpg

20200406_145744.jpg

By the way, regarding your answer to my pipe drawing enquiry, you said the drawing itself costs money, and I concluded from that, that it is relatively good value to buy the Wild Swan book when it carries plenty of photos too.

[Dave Holt]

Julian,
You're very welcome.
I must say that my knowledge of Compounds is minimal. However, combing through some books I found a shot of 1106, new, which shows that the LH (cylinder) lubricator had 6 feeds on the front, so 12 in all. All the photos show that only 4 oil pipes were connected to the atomisers fitted behind the saddle on the LHS. Usually, only valve chests and, possibly, cylinder bores were supplied with atomised oil. Other parts needing cylinder grade oil, such as piston rod and valve stem glands were fed with liquid oil, straight from the lubricator, which would explain the discrepancy. Not sure why there's 4 pipes for 3 cylinders! I think the atomised feed to the cylinders was a later (Stanier era) idea, so perhaps the four were one to each outside valve chest and two to the centre? Alternatively, it could be two to each outside valve chest and reliance on the already oil carrying steam exhausting into the low pressure cylinder to lubricate that?
I haven't seen any published drawings or even good, close-up photos of atomisers. Those fitted to P&O (BR Standard fittings) consist of a block containing the required number of feeds. Each feed has an oil pipe, from the lubricator, entering from the top, a single steam feed into the side or end and separate delivery pipes for atomised oil (actually it's emulsified with the condensed steam) to the cylinder block. The compound photos appear to show a square or rectangular section block with four feeds.
I would certainly recommend the Wild Swan Profile books for the drawings and extensive photo selection. However, details of the lubrication system are not included in any of the books I've got. This was always a separate drawing (or set of drawings) from the Pipe & Rod drawing, which is included in the books.
Hope that sort of helps.
Dave.

[Noel]

so perhaps the four were one to each outside valve chest and two to the centre? Alternatively, it could be two to each outside valve chest and reliance on the already oil carrying steam exhausting into the low pressure cylinder to lubricate that?

LMS compound cylinders were LP (2) 21" x 26", HP (1) 19" x 26", i.e. the inside cylinder was the HP one [the volume of the HP cylinder(s) in all compounds was always significantly less than the LP volume]. The HP cylinder had piston valves, the LP cylinders had slide valves inside the frames. Three sets of Stephenson valve gear must have made access between the frames rather interesting...

[Julian Roberts]

Again thank you so much for your help Dave, and Noel. (There are several pictures I took of between the frames Noel, on my Compound thread) Here is one of the between frames pics I took of the preserved 1000 - I think this is the atomiser? between the frames - before it was mounted above the platform(?)

Midland Compound 014a.jpg

Doing a trawl on Google to get a picture this morning

ATOMISER 3.PNG

ATOMISER 6.PNG

ATOMISER 4.PNG

I reckon - do you agree? - I can "get away with" modelling the four pipes going into the atomiser as per the photos yesterday; these photos and your words help know what is going on, and the rest is relatively invisible behind, and unlike you I won't have enough skill patience and knowhow to model it. Do you use ceramic tipped tweezers to hold these tiny parts when soldering them?

[Dave Holt]

Thanks for the correction, Noel. I'd always thought (assumed) that the outside cylinders were the high pressure with a large single low pressure cylinder between the frames - the exact opposite of the true situation!
Perhaps the atomised oil feeds were two to the middle and one each to the outside valve chests? Of course, this is academic as far as our models go. I just wondered how 4 feeds related to 3 cylinders.
Julian, thanks for posting the photo. There's clearly a second atomiser block between the frames on the LHS. Out of curiosity, I wonder if there was a third inside the RHS frames?
I don't have any ceramic tipped tweezers. Mine are stainless steel and do get soldered to the job occasionally. Sounds like a sensible future investment.
Dave.

[Julian Roberts]

No atomiser above the platform in front of the lubricator on the loco as preserved at the museum in 2013 Dave, and none I can see on the RHS. But there's no lubricator on the RHS at all. Pictures of the loco I've chosen to model in BR days show lubricators both sides, but plenty of photos from earlier times in the Wild Swan book show no lubricator on the side facing the camera. All very mysterious. Of course we all know preserved locos aren't a guide for everything. I don't know if the larger LP outside cylinders cause this, but the connecting rod is inboard from the coupling rods. But this is getting very sidetracked from your Black 5!

[Noel]

Thanks for the correction, Noel. I'd always thought (assumed) that the outside cylinders were the high pressure with a large single low pressure cylinder between the frames - the exact opposite of the true situation!

You would have been right if it had been an LNWR Webb design; whether it used three or four cylinders, the HP ones were outside. The GWR's 4 cylinder De Glehn compounds also had the HP outside. In both cases loading gauge clearance may have been the reason for having the smaller cylinders outside.

The NER Worsdell-von Borries system used one HP and one LP, so one each side, of different sizes, both outside the frames. Later NER compounds used the Smith system, which is what the Midland also used, as did the GCR. The main point of the Smith system, apparently, was that it involved semi-automatic changeover between working compound and working simple, so that the loco could be worked simple, especially on starting, and would then change to compound working once speed had increased sufficiently, but would return to working simple if conditions required it later in the run. The intention was maximum power at low speed, maximum economy thereafter; although I suspect that neither the GWR or the LNWR would have regarded the Midland/LMSR compounds as being particularly powerful....

[JFS]

.
.
Warning - WAY off topic!

... I suspect that neither the GWR or the LNWR would have regarded the Midland/LMSR compounds as being particularly powerful....

Indeed; I suspect they would hardly describe them as locomotives! Even the Midland had to double-head them most of the time. If you want a compound, I give you this - also using the Smith system:-

242-A1.jpg

At 4,300 EDBHP, more powerful than a Deltic and a Brush 4 combined and 50 tons less weight! The shocking thing is that the design work on this rebuild started within 10 years of the LMS building its last compound - so much for our "Great British tradition of locomotive engineering"!

Keep up the great work Dave!

[Noel]

[Dave Holt]

Maintenant, c'est une locomotive serieuse. Magnifique! So powerful in fact, that even the front bogie wheels needed sanders to help adhesion.
Dave.

[Dave Holt]

Not too much to show for today's efforts. I'm preparing the boiler/firebox unit for permanent attachment to the footplate/cab assembly. The cut out in the bottom, to clear the gearbox has been slightly enlarged and neatened up. The top of the inside of the firebox, moulded as a semi-circle, has been ground away to flat and some lead sheet attached to provide a bit of weight at the back end.
Weight inside the boiler (me having forgotten to insert the cast weight provided before joining the boiler and firebox) is the very small diameter "liquid lead" shot, set in UHU glue and sealed with superglue. The space for the gearbox has been created by inserting a core made from plastic card and wrapped in cling-film which, I hope to goodness, will facilitate removal once the glue sets.
Here we are, waiting for the setting process. Scallops in the boiler are to clear the sand box filler pipes.

BM_Blk5_45284_090.JPG

Dave.

[Dave Holt]

Phew! Yes, the core did come out after an overnight setting period. Some lead shot had adhered to the cling-film and pulled away with it, but not too bad and the surface of the lead fill, which had not fully hardened, was able to be smoothed and is now fully curing. Despite the layer of film, the solvent in the UHU had apparently softened the plastic card and left a bobbly indent in the front face of the core, just about visible in the photo. This shows the resulting lead weight and the lead sheets fixed to the firebox roof. I'll seal the lead balls with paint or superglue to make sure no bits fall off into the gearbox.

BM_Blk5_45284_091.JPG

Dave.

[Mike Garwood]

Hi Dave

Full of admiration for this engine. Absolutely stunning effort! How far down the boiler does the lead shot go?

Mike

[Horsetan]

..If you want a compound, I give you this - also using the Smith system:-

242-A1.jpg

At 4,300 EDBHP, more powerful than a Deltic and a Brush 4 combined and 50 tons less weight! The shocking thing is that the design work on this rebuild started within 10 years of the LMS building its last compound - so much for our "Great British tradition of locomotive engineering"!

I see your 242A1, and I raise you:

[Dave Holt]

Hi Dave

How far down the boiler does the lead shot go?

Mike

Mike,
About to the boiler/smokebox junction. I'm hoping to keep the additional weight mainly over the driving wheels. Once the boiler is fixed to the footplate/cab, I'll probably add further lead behind the motor to balance things up a bit.
I found with previous fully sprung locos, a bit of weight juggling is required to get them to sit level.
Dave.

[JFS]

I see your 242A1, and I raise you:

Of topic as it is not a Smith System compound But I have to concede that not many locos could manage a 305km trip with a 1200t train for a running-in turn... Probably more tonne-kilometers in its first trip than many of the LMS compounds achieved in their whole lifetime.

[Mike Garwood]

Hi Dave

How far down the boiler does the lead shot go?

Mike

Mike,
About to the boiler/smokebox junction. I'm hoping to keep the additional weight mainly over the driving wheels.
I found with previous fully sprung locos, a bit of weight juggling is required to get them to sit level.
Dave.

That makes sense. May I ask what size motor and gearbox are going into the chassis? I've got a Black five that is waiting in the que that is using the same springing arrangment...hence the questions. At the rate my 'shelf of shame' is deminishing I might even get started!

Mike

[Dave Holt]

Just been out to clap, along with most of the neighbours. The least we can do to show appreciation of all the wonderful key workers.

Anyway, back to the truly inconsequential stuff. Mike, the loco is powered by a 1616 Portescap driving the centre axle. This is one of the cement mixer sound-alike examples! The main drawback is that the sides/bottom edges of the firebox have to be thinned to a frightening degree to allow the motor to pass up. A 14 mm wide motor would be a lot easier.

The boiler unit has suffered a major disaster. The UHU glue I used to fix the lead shot has softened the resin it is made from, causing a large bulge and a longitudinal split to develop on the lower RHS, just in front of the top feed covers to beyond the next boiler band. In desperation I have bound a piece of curved brass sheet over the affected area in the hope it might be persuaded back to something like the right shape and allow filing, filling and other rectification work to give an acceptable profile and finish. I've drill a series of ventilation holes to allow solvent fumes to escape and will give it a few days before removing the splint.
If not, I'm faced with preparing the boiler out of another, unbuilt, kit. A lot of work to get to the finished state but, hopefully, I will be able to recover the various pipes and other details for re-use. If I have to go down this route, I'll definitely make sure I fit the cast boiler weight that I omitted last time. It will also leave me with a kit for a further loco with no boiler. I'll enquire if a replacement can be supplied or, possibly, the boiler off a Hornby model could be adapted?
Photo shows the bandaged boiler with the spare visible behind.

BM_Blk5_45284_092.JPG

Dave.

[PeteT]

Yes times like this are odd - it does show that our toys are pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things - but actually help keep us busy. Lots of people out there are despairing with boredom apparently!

Sorry to hear that Dave. I believe replacements have at times been available, but whether there are 'spare' stocks currently only time will tell.

One option I was wondering about anyway, having seen your work to get weight into it - & knowing the difference between my 1P and 2P 0-4-4s (the latter with a resin boiler, but I only drilled out a 12mm bore to be safe) - is whether a DJH white metal one would fit?

[Horsetan]

.....It will also leave me with a kit for a further loco with no boiler. I'll enquire if a replacement can be supplied....

Brassmasters are quite helpful with replacement parts - expect at least £30 for the new boiler casting. In the past, I've had complete sets of castings and new etch frets to help with half-built Brassmasters kits that were either ruined by previous owners or which had bits missing.

I'm also making a mental note not to use lead shot as a weight material. I've seen a couple of brass boilered models which split when there was internal expansion from the lead packed inside. Perhaps there is a gap in the market for whitemetal plugs and weights in varying shapes and sizes

[davebradwell]

It's terrible what's happened to your boiler, Dave, and you have my sympathy. You might even have sworn a bit.

I stuck sheet lead under Parkside wagons with UHU for a long time without trouble until the new non-sniffable solvent-free formulation came along, probably about 20 years ago now. Result was a whole batch of plate wagons slowly folding down the middle. There's something very nasty about this green version as you've demonstrated and which appears more aggressive than the solvent in the original, at least to our materials.

The swelling lead shot problem was due to mixing it with pva, itself an attacker of metals.

Any chemists out there......

DaveB

[johndarch]

The problems with lead shot + adhesive seems to have been a recurring theme over the years. I seem to recall, in the distant past, filling a boiler with lead shot and sealing it in with a large lump of blue tack. It worked well until I turned the loco upside down to clean the wheels when the lead shot started to dribble out of the chimney. A small lump of blue tack cured that problem! I now use rolled up flat lead in boilers wrapped tightly with duct tape. I have had no problems to date with lead sheet fixed to the underside of plastic wagons with epoxy.

[Mike Garwood]

Mike, the loco is powered by a 1616 Portescap driving the centre axle. This is one of the cement mixer sound-alike examples! The main drawback is that the sides/bottom edges of the firebox have to be thinned to a frightening degree to allow the motor to pass up. A 14 mm wide motor would be a lot easier.

The boiler unit has suffered a major disaster.

Dave.

Ouch, I feel for you. That has to sting a bit. Horse is right about the resin stuff from Brass masters, I had a replacement Scot boiler and firebox from them, with no problem. Thanks for the useful info...A little note has gone inside the box to remind me.

Stay safe

Mike

[Bulwell Hall]

I would concur with John that lead sheet attached with epoxy works ok and does not appear to give any long term problems. I sometimes place the weight inside vans before the roof is fitted and often also add a self tapping screw to ensure that the weight remains attached - overkill possibly.

I once saw a beautiful 7mm scale GWR 28xx built by John Hayes from a Martin Finney kit with Harris wheels etc. It was an exquisite model as you would expect from JH but the boiler had split away from the firebox - caused by the lead shot used to add weight expanding due to its reaction with PVA. I don't know how this model was resolved as it was after John Hayes untimely passing.

Gerry

[Dave Holt]

Thanks for the various suggestions.
Sadly, the splint idea has not worked, as hoped, and the boiler remains badly distorted, with a significant bulge round about a third of the circumference, as shown in the photos.

BM_Blk5_45284_094.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_095.JPG

Consequently, there is no option but to use a replacement boiler. This will involve quite a bit of extra work but I have managed to save all the metallic attachments to re-use. So that's something to be glad about.

BM_Blk5_45284_093.JPG

I must admit, this setback has knocked the wind out of my sails a bit, so I decided to do something more positive (besides sitting out in the back garden in the lovely warm sunshine) and have managed to fit pick-ups to the centre driving wheels, which I had previously struggled to figure out how to achieve. This means I no longer have to also use the tender to provide adequate pick-ups.
Dave.