Brassmasters Blk5 45232
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Well, the gap in the cross beam was rather more visible than I'd hoped, so thoughts turned as to how to plug it. First, I soldered a length of wire across the gap and then wiggled the cut out section back in place and fixed it. Not a perfect solution, but a couple of 0.2 mm gaps are much less obvious than a 2.5 mm one.
Dave.
Dave.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
The new axles arrived yesterday, so the replacement wheel-sets were assembled and, after a bit of dressing of the bearing inner faces, fitted into the frames. The cross beams have been fixed and the scoop mechanism completed.
On to the brake gear next, I suppose, then frame and buffer beam overlays and steps.
Dave.
On to the brake gear next, I suppose, then frame and buffer beam overlays and steps.
Dave.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Thanks Doug.
Not a great rate of progress, partially due to the marvellous weather leading to quite a lot of time out in the back garden. Reading and meals, you understand - gardening isn't my thing.
Anyway, the brake rigging has now been made and fitted, although there's a bit of tidying up still to do to remove excess solder. Assembly was rather fiddly but I'm quite pleased with the outcome. The brake blocks aren't quite as close to the wheels as on DougN's V2 chassis!
Dave.
Not a great rate of progress, partially due to the marvellous weather leading to quite a lot of time out in the back garden. Reading and meals, you understand - gardening isn't my thing.
Anyway, the brake rigging has now been made and fitted, although there's a bit of tidying up still to do to remove excess solder. Assembly was rather fiddly but I'm quite pleased with the outcome. The brake blocks aren't quite as close to the wheels as on DougN's V2 chassis!
Dave.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
I have run into a small problem with the cosmetic frame overlays and the spring and axlebox castings. Whilst I decide what to do, I thought I'd make a start on the body. To this end, I've assembled the base plate and inner sides/back. The fixing arrangements were altered by use of smaller nuts and screw, as these seemed to suit the etched holes and slots better than those specified in the instructions.
Here's the assembly mounted on the chassis and with the front and back bulkheads just slotted loosely into place.
The frame/casting problem alluded to above is that the spring and axlebox w/m castings have locating pips on the rear, which do not really match up with the holes in the etchings. I've managed to open out the spring locating holes enough to get them to engage, but the axlebox locators appear to be on a slightly different pitch. I've opened the holes for one box (rear on the LHS) to 1.5 mm to suit the pip diameter, but the centres are different, so the box still does not sit down properly. If the holes are opened further, the edges will be visible outside the castings and it is almost impossible to move the holes in the inner chassis frames because the horn guides are right behind them.
I wonder if anyone else has experienced this problem?
The only solution which comes to mind is to file the pips off and simply position the castings by eye.
Dave.
Here's the assembly mounted on the chassis and with the front and back bulkheads just slotted loosely into place.
The frame/casting problem alluded to above is that the spring and axlebox w/m castings have locating pips on the rear, which do not really match up with the holes in the etchings. I've managed to open out the spring locating holes enough to get them to engage, but the axlebox locators appear to be on a slightly different pitch. I've opened the holes for one box (rear on the LHS) to 1.5 mm to suit the pip diameter, but the centres are different, so the box still does not sit down properly. If the holes are opened further, the edges will be visible outside the castings and it is almost impossible to move the holes in the inner chassis frames because the horn guides are right behind them.
I wonder if anyone else has experienced this problem?
The only solution which comes to mind is to file the pips off and simply position the castings by eye.
Dave.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
I was about to go and look for the MRJ articles on the Black 5 and Jubilee builds - but I presume those will have both been done with the older style of underframe?
I'm glad to see the half etched lines to help form the curve in the right place and in the right plane.
I'm glad to see the half etched lines to help form the curve in the right place and in the right plane.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Peter,
Yes, the half etched lines would help guide the bending of the sides. However, it might be a case of who you know, but my kit came with the sides pre-bent.
Some further progress has been made and the coal space chute and the front bulkhead have been formed, fitted and fixed. I decided to add some of the smaller details to the front bulkhead before fitting as it was easier to work flat on the bench. The details include the lamp irons and protective cover, water level gauge and a representation of the tender coal spray piping.
Still quite a bit to do, but it's definitely coming along.
Dave.
Yes, the half etched lines would help guide the bending of the sides. However, it might be a case of who you know, but my kit came with the sides pre-bent.
Some further progress has been made and the coal space chute and the front bulkhead have been formed, fitted and fixed. I decided to add some of the smaller details to the front bulkhead before fitting as it was easier to work flat on the bench. The details include the lamp irons and protective cover, water level gauge and a representation of the tender coal spray piping.
Still quite a bit to do, but it's definitely coming along.
Dave.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Just had a fairly disastrous morning's modelling. Spurred on by recent progress, I decided to fit the half-etched overlays to the tank sides. I started by soldering the front turned in edge and then along the top, working from one end. I noticed that the bottom of the etch was not hard against the inner side so soldered along the bottom. As I returned to the top edge, a bulge started to occur which I could not eliminate. Disaster.
I then struggled to unsolder the overlay and feared causing permanent and irretrievable damage.
The only silver lining is that having final detached the overlay, both it and the inner side have cleaned up well without much visible damage, so the overlay lives for a further attempt.
I'm seriously considering glueing the overlays on next time. What sort of adhesive is best - 5 min epoxy (hard to spread a nice thin film) of 10 second superglue (not much time for adjustment). Do I then solder round the outside edges with lower melt solder or run in low viscosity super glue, bearing in mind there's still some soldering work to do.
Any thoughts and suggestions welcome.
Dave.
I then struggled to unsolder the overlay and feared causing permanent and irretrievable damage.
The only silver lining is that having final detached the overlay, both it and the inner side have cleaned up well without much visible damage, so the overlay lives for a further attempt.
I'm seriously considering glueing the overlays on next time. What sort of adhesive is best - 5 min epoxy (hard to spread a nice thin film) of 10 second superglue (not much time for adjustment). Do I then solder round the outside edges with lower melt solder or run in low viscosity super glue, bearing in mind there's still some soldering work to do.
Any thoughts and suggestions welcome.
Dave.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Dave,
Much sympathy! I would use epoxy, a fairly runny one like Devcon. I use the 5 minute variety for gluing tyres back on wheels, and it’s thin enough to give a good layer between fairly close fitting components. It should stay workable enough to spread over the tender side sub structure, and probably with grip enough to hold the overlay in place. Perhaps test on two pieces of brass sheet first to see how quickly it goes off? I wouldn’t think it necessary to add solder at the edges, and the epoxy would be a bit resistant to subsequent soldering.
If it goes off too quickly, then a 30 minute version would be the way to go, except you then have to be holding it down for a while before it starts to grip.
I don’t think I’d try superglue, unless you were sure of getting the overlay in exactly the right place first time. The old dodge of running glue along the joints would work for the edges, but not so good for the middle of the panels. Superglue might also not take too kindly to subsequent heat.
Would it be possible to drill some holes in the sub structure? A Finney M7 I built once had these, designed so you could add some solder mid panel and then down the edges after it had cooled down a bit. That would also work with glue.
Best of luck...
Philip
Much sympathy! I would use epoxy, a fairly runny one like Devcon. I use the 5 minute variety for gluing tyres back on wheels, and it’s thin enough to give a good layer between fairly close fitting components. It should stay workable enough to spread over the tender side sub structure, and probably with grip enough to hold the overlay in place. Perhaps test on two pieces of brass sheet first to see how quickly it goes off? I wouldn’t think it necessary to add solder at the edges, and the epoxy would be a bit resistant to subsequent soldering.
If it goes off too quickly, then a 30 minute version would be the way to go, except you then have to be holding it down for a while before it starts to grip.
I don’t think I’d try superglue, unless you were sure of getting the overlay in exactly the right place first time. The old dodge of running glue along the joints would work for the edges, but not so good for the middle of the panels. Superglue might also not take too kindly to subsequent heat.
Would it be possible to drill some holes in the sub structure? A Finney M7 I built once had these, designed so you could add some solder mid panel and then down the edges after it had cooled down a bit. That would also work with glue.
Best of luck...
Philip
Last edited by Philip Hall on Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Philip,
Thanks very much for your thoughts. The "runny" epoxy sounds like the best solution. I've got some 12 minute type that I might use.
On this tender, there's no access inside, now, so the holes for solder/glue isn't an option.
Dave.
Thanks very much for your thoughts. The "runny" epoxy sounds like the best solution. I've got some 12 minute type that I might use.
On this tender, there's no access inside, now, so the holes for solder/glue isn't an option.
Dave.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
If you fancy a search, I believe there's a grade of Loctite that's suitable for overlays. We had some at work (years ago now) and our technician was using it for sticking overlays on etched vans. It seemed thixotropic so the component would float about until pressed down - easier and quicker than soldering. A bottle wouldn't be cheap, of course.
Philip certainly hits the source of the problem when he queries the lack of cutouts - I believe all Finney tenders (which use overlays) have a pattern of large apertures which also avoid getting air and flux trapped. I've always done the same and it all seems to work fine. Meanwhile, have you got an angle grinder?
No consideration for those putting the motor in the tender, I see.
DaveB
Philip certainly hits the source of the problem when he queries the lack of cutouts - I believe all Finney tenders (which use overlays) have a pattern of large apertures which also avoid getting air and flux trapped. I've always done the same and it all seems to work fine. Meanwhile, have you got an angle grinder?
No consideration for those putting the motor in the tender, I see.
DaveB
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Phew. My second attempt at attaching the tender side overlays has gone much better and they are now fixed in place to my satisfaction. Despite dallying with thoughts of using adhesives, and thanks for the various suggestions, in the end I persevered with solder but using the approach suggested by Howard Bolton. The overlays were held, by fingers, in the correct place and very small tacks made around the edge, starting the the middle, using 145 degree solder and allowing the parts to cool before progressing. I might run some low viscosity superglue along the bottom edge as the soldered joints are not continuous along this edge.
It doesn't show in the photos, but I've taken the sharp corners off the etched beading in the hope of making it look less flat.
Dave.
It doesn't show in the photos, but I've taken the sharp corners off the etched beading in the hope of making it look less flat.
Dave.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Well done Dave. It looks great.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Dave,
I may be being a bit dense, and I know very little about LMS engines, but I am mystified as to why there is an overlay for the tender side. The overlay looks as flush and smooth as the base, apart from the beading. Is it just a method of attaching the beading or to strengthen the construction?
Philip
I may be being a bit dense, and I know very little about LMS engines, but I am mystified as to why there is an overlay for the tender side. The overlay looks as flush and smooth as the base, apart from the beading. Is it just a method of attaching the beading or to strengthen the construction?
Philip
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
I confess I am a bit with Philip - when I first opened your post Dave, my first thought was that the job had not yet been done
Still, it looks first rate and that is what matters! I will be sending the Big Lads round to confiscate all your super glue (safely distanced of course).
Just a thought on solder (which you are probably already aware of!) For this kind of job, (and plenty of others in truth) my first choice would be 179deg. If you have not tried this, it is brilliant stuff - it contains about 3% silver which causes it to have excellent flow characteristics, and in a situation like this, if you have a "blobby tack" and you warm the job up, the solder will suddenly disappear as it is sucked into the joint.
Although 145 (obviously) melts at a lower temperature, its flow charateristics are much worse (even than standard 188) so you end up having to heat the job up a lot hotter to get the same result.
Unfortunately, it is a bit pricey, but we are not soldering up a tin bath ...
Hope that helps,
Best wishes,
Howard
Still, it looks first rate and that is what matters! I will be sending the Big Lads round to confiscate all your super glue (safely distanced of course).
Just a thought on solder (which you are probably already aware of!) For this kind of job, (and plenty of others in truth) my first choice would be 179deg. If you have not tried this, it is brilliant stuff - it contains about 3% silver which causes it to have excellent flow characteristics, and in a situation like this, if you have a "blobby tack" and you warm the job up, the solder will suddenly disappear as it is sucked into the joint.
Although 145 (obviously) melts at a lower temperature, its flow charateristics are much worse (even than standard 188) so you end up having to heat the job up a lot hotter to get the same result.
Unfortunately, it is a bit pricey, but we are not soldering up a tin bath ...
Hope that helps,
Best wishes,
Howard
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Philip.
I'm not privy to the Brassmasters design concepts, but the tender kit can make up the fully rivetted, all welded (as mine) or the later part rivetted types. Only the overlays (plus a few other bits and bobs) vary, with the basic carcass remaining common to all. So I suppose the relatively plain overlays in my case are to provide the beading and maintain the body width as well as maintaining commonality.
Howard,
Yes, I am aware of the 179 solder and actually bought some a while ago at the Warley Show, where someone was demonstrating its use. That said, I've never got round to trying it myself. Obviously I should.
For most of my work, I use flux cored 60/40 and only use 145 to build up details or, in this case, to be able to reduce the iron temperature to try and minimise heat input to the model.
Today's progress limited to some of the front bulkhead details.
Dave.
I'm not privy to the Brassmasters design concepts, but the tender kit can make up the fully rivetted, all welded (as mine) or the later part rivetted types. Only the overlays (plus a few other bits and bobs) vary, with the basic carcass remaining common to all. So I suppose the relatively plain overlays in my case are to provide the beading and maintain the body width as well as maintaining commonality.
Howard,
Yes, I am aware of the 179 solder and actually bought some a while ago at the Warley Show, where someone was demonstrating its use. That said, I've never got round to trying it myself. Obviously I should.
For most of my work, I use flux cored 60/40 and only use 145 to build up details or, in this case, to be able to reduce the iron temperature to try and minimise heat input to the model.
Today's progress limited to some of the front bulkhead details.
Dave.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
davebradwell wrote:....No consideration for those putting the motor in the tender, I see.
I think there was an assumption back in 1993 that the supply of RG4s wouldn't dry up so the possibility of having a rear engine wasn't catered for in the tender design.
That would be an ecumenical matter.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Right. Just used the 179 degree solder to attach the coal space doors and their locking bars. I found it OK, but not as wonderful as Howard has suggested.
Obviously, I must be doing something wrong. What temperature setting should one use for this solder? Is my Phosflux 12 a suitable flux?
Dave.
Obviously, I must be doing something wrong. What temperature setting should one use for this solder? Is my Phosflux 12 a suitable flux?
Dave.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Hi Dave,
I use this solder most of the time with a phosphoric acid flux and set the iron about 350 degrees. Love it, it flows beautifully and I rarely have to clean up after that.
Love the Black 5 Dave, superb work.
Ralph
I use this solder most of the time with a phosphoric acid flux and set the iron about 350 degrees. Love it, it flows beautifully and I rarely have to clean up after that.
Love the Black 5 Dave, superb work.
Ralph
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Thanks for the kind comment and soldering info, Ralph.
I had my iron set to about 270, so it probably just wasn't hot enough to make the solder flow properly.
Dave.
I had my iron set to about 270, so it probably just wasn't hot enough to make the solder flow properly.
Dave.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Some further progress, mainly on the front bulkhead. Fire iron tunnel, coal space tank vents and front hand rails also attached.
Just the hand brake and scoop handles to do at the front end.
Dave.
Just the hand brake and scoop handles to do at the front end.
Dave.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Looking very good David. Out of interest why is your tenders in nickel silver?
Keep Safe
Dave
Keep Safe
Dave
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Serjt-Dave wrote:....why is your tenders in nickel silver?...
I'd say most of these kits were turned out in nickel silver. All of the ones I have are n/s.
That would be an ecumenical matter.
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
Ah, all my Brassmaster tenders are brass. Or is this not a Brassmaster tender?
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232
I bought some very early kits, they were brass.
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