Brassmasters Blk5 45232

User avatar
Serjt-Dave
Posts: 454
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:31 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:32 am

David you must be gutted. Your more than welcome to take one of my boilers until till you get a replacement. I understand your frustration especially as your not too far away from completing the bloody thing. Anyway let me know if I can help out.

Keep Safe

Dave

Julian Roberts
Posts: 981
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Julian Roberts » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:02 am

Dave, commiserations from me also. It is very helpful of you to share with readers setbacks like this that we too can learn from, not least that such setbacks can happen to all of us. FWIW, on my Crab I stuffed the (parallel) boiler with flat layers of lead flashing, the length of the boiler and of varying widths. Pushing the last one in I found it didn't really need any adhesive, it was wedged there through the inherent flexibility of the stuff. And by the way, relating to a previous topic, it has been suggested to me that titanium tweezers are cheaper and just as good as ceramic tipped ones.

User avatar
Andy W
Posts: 872
Joined: Thu May 21, 2009 8:11 am

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Andy W » Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:46 am

I’ve been trying to think of a project I’ve worked on when I haven’t had set backs for one reason or another. After two days of deep pondering I still can’t recall one. Often the greater the hitch, the deeper the satisfaction when overcoming it.
But there’s really no need to tell you this Dave as I’m sure the ability to get up and fight on is just one of the many qualities you have that make you such a brilliant modeller.
Make Worcestershire great again.
Build a wall along the Herefordshire border and make them pay for it.

DougN
Posts: 1078
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:57 am

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby DougN » Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:00 am

Have to agree with Andy. It is the challange and frustration that is over come that make the locomotives so valued. I have a old J27 I built from a Dave Bradwell kit, starting the build while I was in PNG , in 1998. I had the frustration that the boiler once rolled was and installed had gone tapered! I took a deep breath and pulled it apart and had another go.

I am still so proud to have built it but now it is not up to my standard and things I really should go back and fix up. I have a new one part built which I really should get on with and get the detailing finished but I am sticking with my V2's my frustration is daughter wants her bed room repainted! But I have been fettling no 2 so that it will move and run so I this will hold up progress on the completion of the chassis for a while. Best not to rush in at this stage.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 1967
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Will L » Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:01 am

I'd just like to add my voice to the chorus of those who have felt your pain. I'd just like to add the thought that you can tell the real modellers, they are the ones who won't let that sort of event stop them. At least we are all learning by your experience. Talking of which...

I too have had a loco which have leaked lead shot when inappropriately orientated and so wondered about various ways of "potting" the lead shot.

I have tried mixing lead shot with molten white metal which, because it fills up the spaces between the shot should make it even heavier. This sort of worked so long as the thing your going to fill with it isn't made of plastic. But it was difficult to get them to mix, very hot to handle, hard to manipulate and because you don't want to get it too hot, tended to set before you were ready. I won't bother again.

We should all know that PVA is a no-no due to the a chemical reaction which occurs and causes the resultant mass to swell. Should we suspect something similar with your UHU/lead mix too as it didn't just soften the resin but pushed it outward?

I'm now wondering about potting the lead shot in superglue or epoxy resin. Have we any relevant experience out there?

myoxall
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:20 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby myoxall » Sat Apr 11, 2020 10:44 am

Hi,

Has anyone tried embedding the lead shot in silicon sealant? Just an idea, I haven't tried it myself but I've always thought that silicon sealant is inert as it is used in food moulds etc. Any Chemists out there...……………. :?:

Martin

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1448
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Noel » Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:51 am

Having had a problem many years ago with lead sheet ballast under wagons in my home made stock boxes [wooden, with PVA as glue, including for the foam lining] I now stick the lead down with Araldite [which I did anyway] but apply another layer to all exposed surfaces [either in one operation with a plasticard dam around the lead or as two operations, once the glue holding the weight has set, which ever is most convenient]. Problem solved [so far anyway].

Since the lead never came into contact with the PVA glue, I assume that the problem was down to whatever chemicals kept the PVA liquid in the original container slowly evaporating over time after application, in the closed boxes, and that this was what was reacting with the lead. Encasing the ballast weights may no longer be necessary, but I don't know this with certainty, so prefer not to take the risk. I know nothing about the composition of UHU. or silicone sealant, but both will have chemicals in them to keep them liquid in the container, which will evaporate in air [the UHU tube I have, now some years old, has a "highly flammable" warning on it, incidentally, implying the presence of a solvent].
Regards
Noel

Armchair Modeller

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Armchair Modeller » Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:31 pm

There is certainly a chemical effect of the evaporation of the solvent with PVA and similar glues. I have stuck nickel silver track down onto baseboards many times with PVA, putting weights on the track to hold it down while the glue sets. After removal, all the track has been blackened to some extent - most effectively in the least ventilated areas under books and the like.

Dave Holt
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:44 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Sat Apr 11, 2020 1:11 pm

Thank you for all the kind comments and encouragement. I'm already buoyed up by the positive progress with the pick-ups and now fully resolved to using the spare boiler and firebox (resin) castings. The question of obtaining a further boiler for the second kit is not at all that urgent.
Regarding the use of lead shot to add weight, this is not something I normally do. Like several others, I usually use rolled lead sheet, held in by UHU. But what I overlooked is that most kits I have built had metallic boilers, unaffected by any solvent issues. Lead shot was used here because I forgot to insert the cast weight before joining the boiler and firebox and, with the boiler being tapered, it could not be filled with rolled sheet inserted from the smokebox end.
I don't think the bulging has been caused by any chemical reaction between lead and the glue, rather the solvent severely softened the resin and gravity acting on the lead/glue fluid mix, applied internal pressure whilst the boiler was standing upright. With hindsight, I think I should have used superglue applied in stages as I filled the boiler with the shot.
Never mind. We all learn and if my experience saves someone else for the same problem, that can only be a good thing.
Onwards!
Dave.

User avatar
Lord Colnago
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:42 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Lord Colnago » Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:52 pm

Hi David,

The last line of your posting sums it up nicely. We only learn from these warts and all postings such as yours. I for one am grateful that you shared your problem with us all especially as it shows that these things can happen to any of us regardless of talent. Whilst its a bit of a "one step forward, two steps back" situation, we all have to face them sometime and its how we get back up again and carry on that counts. I'm really pleased to see that you have overcome your disappointment and, no doubt, annoyance and are soldiering on. Its what we do and, when finished, the model will have a special place in your heart. I'm looking forward to reading of more progress and to seeing the finished model. Good luck with it and more power to your elbow!

John.
The second best priest

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1448
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Noel » Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:00 pm

Dave Holt wrote:I don't think the bulging has been caused by any chemical reaction between lead and the glue, rather the solvent severely softened the resin and gravity acting on the lead/glue fluid mix, applied internal pressure whilst the boiler was standing upright.


If I read you correctly, this happened very soon after putting the lead in place? If so, you are likely to be right, I think, but it doesn't rule out the possibility of a slower reaction between the lead and the glue, judging by the relatively slow outcome of the combination of lead and PVA.
Regards
Noel

Dave Holt
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:44 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:24 am

Not a great deal of modelling achieved over the Easter weekend, so far. Lots of time spent out in the back garden, enjoying the sunshine and warm weather. A reasonable amount of wine consumed, meals eaten and papers, magazines and book read (at a squint!).
However, in my re-found spirit of positivity, I have managed some progress with the loco.
Pick-ups have been provided for the previously isolated centre drivers by fixing copperclad strips to the centre horn keeps to attach thin brass wore pick-ups which bear on the back of the wheel tyres, behind the brake shoes. The pick-up wires are connected to the bus-bars by thin insulated wire.
The original front pick-ups kept getting caught during handling of the chassis, bent out of shape and, ultimately, removed altogether. These have now also been replaced by new versions, which bear on the tread of the wheels rather than on the back of them.
The connections to the motor have been modified and neatened and now run at a low level to the junction pads on the gearbox sides to avoid interference with the inside of the firebox and its lead weights.
All these element can be seen in these photos.
BM_Blk5_45284_096.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_097.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_098.JPG

The replacement boiler resin castings have been marked ready for cutting to clear the gearbox and the previously omitted cast boiler weight has been cut away for the same purpose. What a job that was. I initially used a razor saw but the material kept clogging the teeth. A junior hacksaw completed the task much easier. Should have used the right tool for the job, right from the start.
BM_Blk5_45284_099.JPG

On with the replacement boiler next.
Dave.

triumph3
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:52 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby triumph3 » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:38 am

Dave, good to see that the UHU disaster has not put you of completing the loco.
I have always been dubious when using solvent based glues to glue in weights. I had a disaster a long time ago when I glued lead weights into a box van and put the roof straight on, the solvent evaporating caused the roof to sag! Now if I glue a weight inside a van I leave the roof of for at least a week or longer.
Seems we all need to be chemists to work out what goes with what.

David

Dave Holt
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:44 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:44 pm

I don't believe it! No, I haven't turned into Victor Meldrew but my capacity for stupidity and incompetence seems to know no bounds.
Having prepared the boiler components, as previously shown, I glued them together with a thick grade superglue, as recommended in the kit, being careful to align the boiler and firebox. As I admired the nice joint I'd achieved, I realized to my horror that I had once again omitted to insert the cast weight. Aaaargh! Luckily, by quick action, I managed to break the joint and separate the two parts.
After inserting the weight, secured by a mixture of Blutac and superglue, the boiler and firebox were fixed together once more. I have to say, the joint is nowhere as good as the first time and some filling might be required prior to painting.
The inside of the firebox has been ground away using a rotary burr and engineer's scraper, to clear the motor and provide a flat top surface for the sheet lead weights.
BM_Blk5_45284_100.JPG

With the re-creation of the shallow scallops to clear the sand box fillers, the new boiler unit sits quite well onto the footplate unit whilst allowing good suspension movement. It's quite front end heavy, so some rebalancing will be required as the loco is completed.
BM_Blk5_45284_101.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_102.JPG

Now to start re-attaching the metal detailing parts.
Dave.

Dave Holt
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:44 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:17 am

Some progress with fitting the metal details to the boiler, so I am nearly back to where I was before the great solvent disaster.
Brassmasters have responded very impressively with the prompt supply of a new replacement boiler for the other kit. Mind you, there's something slightly different about it! Got quite a surprise when I opened the package.
BM_Blk5_45284_103.JPG

Dave.

Rdunning
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:38 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Rdunning » Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:58 am

Perhaps the way to view the recent lead shot/glue disaster is that the prototype carried out boiler exchanges when engines were in works for major overhauls - this is just modelling following prototype practice?

Very glad to see you're back on track with this one Dave. Having followed this thread since the beginning I have to say that this promises to be the definitive P4 Black 5. I'm looking forward to seeing the completed model running on "Slattocks" one day.

Best wishes,

Richard

Dave Holt
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:44 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:03 pm

The weather's been too nice to do much modelling, but the boiler has now been fixed to the footplate, the dome and top feed and smokebox door all attached with 5 minute epoxy. Still got a few bits to do to finish the loco. Then on with the tender.
The chimney shown is a temporary item, just loose fitted to give an idea. The chimney shape on Black 5's is quite simple but seems hard to catch the essence of it. The casting in the kit is nowhere near (probably the worst aspect of it) and I also sourced three other commercial products. None of them looks right to me, so I've arranged to have a couple custom made by a professional modeller.
BM_Blk5_45284_110.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_111.JPG

Dave.

User avatar
Serjt-Dave
Posts: 454
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:31 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Serjt-Dave » Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:22 am

That's looking David, again. LOL. As it was some time ago I did a Black 5 didn't realise or noticed that the chimney wasn't correct. Will look out for this when i get round to doing my ones. Good luck with the tender,

Keep Safe

Dave

Dave Holt
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:44 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:11 pm

A bit more progress today. Some extra weight has been added inside the firebox, behind the motor. This, rather provocatively, included the further use of small lead shot - you'd think I'd learn! This time, I set it in superglue, so no solvent risks.
The ejector steam pipes have been added - 0.31 mm for the inner/lower one and 0.33 mm for the outer/upper. Scale diameters, but I'm not sure the difference is visible.
BM_Blk5_45284_112.JPG

I've also cut away the rear drag beam below the opening for the tender drawbar, to allow the latter to pass through when assembling the body to the chassis.
BM_Blk5_45284_113.JPG

Just the side wind screen mounts and cab roof left as far as I can see.
Dave.

Dave Holt
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:44 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:18 pm

Some pleasing progress and a minor set-back since the previous posting. The cab roof casting needed an awful lot of scraping away in the rebate to allow the front end to fit over the spectacle plate with the gutters sitting down along the cab sides. Extensive use of my triangular engineers scraper and many, many trial fits. Outside steam pipe covers also fitted, together with re-fitting the steam heat cock which I managed to knock off the front buffer beam a little while ago.
The set-back was with the cab side draft screen frames. They fit into very small holes in the cab side and require quite a bit of dressing to the locating tabs. I'd just finished the first one for final fitting when it pinged out of the tweezers to the great kit store in the carpet. Oh well, most of my locos don't have them, so I decided to live without after a futile search. Then, when I came back to try the front bogie, there was the errant slither of brass in an area I hadn't searched previously.
I have re-fitted the front bogie, complete with springs and plungers, to check the ride attitude for level and height, thinking some packers might be required. But no, to my pleasant surprise, the loco is sitting dead level and with the buffers at the correct height above rail. The gods must be smiling!
The temporary chimney and cab roof are just placed, loose, for effect.
BM_Blk5_45284_114.JPG

Dave.

Paul Hutfield
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Paul Hutfield » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:33 pm

Well I must say Dave, 45232 looks truly fantastic! I hope to see a smile on your face in the not to distant future whilst you watch 45232 gliding past Barrow Road shed with decent load behind her. I'm sure I've got a picture of her visiting the S&D too somewhere! :D

We all obviously understand the necessity of the current lockdown, but one big disappointment for me personally was missing out on your latest demonstration. I was really looking forward to once again seeing your current creations and marvelling over how small some of those pipe runs truly are. The camera definitely spoils us on this thread! I'm sure this cancellation is merely a delay rather a full cancellation, so again I look forward to a rearranged date of such a demonstration.

I must echo the many earlier comments praising this thread! I too have a Brassmasters black 5 in the relatively modest kit stash and your notes that you've published here will be invaluable! I also have a Hornby body that may yet also gain a Brassmasters chassis. It's threads like yours which go a long way to providing the inspiration and motivation to many of us.

One area I have wondered about myself is the whitemetal cab roof casting. I've often thought that a replacement etched roof would be a more preferable solution to get a little more finesse, rather than attempting to slim down the edges of the casting? Have you had any similar thoughts yourself?

Looking forward as always to the next instalment.

Best Wishes

Paul

User avatar
45609
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:28 am

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby 45609 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:10 pm

Hi Dave, what is the hole centre measurement for the draft screens? I might have something helpful. See image below

8E2CA34A-BCF3-4B93-ACDC-A2790B0BCE9E.jpeg


I think I only have the lower type left from the batch I had etched but a couple of extra holes drilled in the cab side would sort it. I know they are listed as LNER but there is probably not much difference.

Let me know and I’ll post you some. This is what they look like when fitted

869B81EB-C0A7-4DA1-B406-AC06031FF438.jpeg
869B81EB-C0A7-4DA1-B406-AC06031FF438.jpeg (77.07 KiB) Viewed 2767 times


Cheers...Morgan

Dave Holt
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:44 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:34 pm

Paul,
Thanks for the kind comments. Unfortunately, next year's S4North clashes with another event that I regularly attend at the Ff&WHR, in North Wales. This years show was at a different time, which didn't clash, hence my intended attendance. Yes, an etched replacement roof would perhaps be a better alternative, although it's not that easy to work out the developed length across the roof profile and would probably be kit specific. I did have an etched roof done for the BR Standard Class 2 tank, which even allowed for a slight out of squareness, but despite making a template out of brass sheet, it still wasn't a perfect fit after laminating and bending to shape.
Morgan,
Thanks for the kind offer. I'll hang fire for now as I did find the errant part, so I do now have two shield frames. I must say, your fitted one looks most effective. The locos I have with them, I never fitted the glazing because it seemed too fiddly and prone to damage/loss during handling.
On the Black 5, now it is weighted and sitting level, I'm going to have to adjust the sand pipes on the middle wheels to clear the rails a bit more. That's one of the troubles with fully sprung locos - you're not sure how far they'll sit down when fully weighted, until they're finished. At least compensated locos don't squat down, unless you really overdo the weighting, that is!
Dave.

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 1967
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Will L » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:41 pm

Dave Holt wrote:... That's one of the troubles with fully sprung locos - you're not sure how far they'll sit down when fully weighted, until they're finished...
Depends how you spring your loco. Doesn't apply to CSB's

Dave Holt
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:44 pm

Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:47 pm

Will, I'd be the first to admit my lack of knowledge about CSB design, but I can't believe the deflections of the spring beam is not dependant on the total mass of the loco in some way or other. So, if the final mass isn't known at the design stage, nor can the deflections be known either?
Dave.


Return to “Steam Locomotives”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Andy W and 10 guests