Brassmasters Blk5 45232

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45609
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby 45609 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:42 pm

Pete,
A small square escapement file is what you’ll need. Although these can be quite pricey and delicate. ISTR that Chris P ground down the tip of a more reasonably priced flat file to a suitable size.

The other option is etch some replacement return cranks with a square hole in them. Slightly undersized to allow for a bit up “fit up”

Cheers... Morgan

Albert Hall
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Albert Hall » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:25 pm

Pete

I probably have copies of those in my shed. I'll have a look over the weekend.

Roy

triumph3
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby triumph3 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:01 am

Morgan, thanks for reminding me of the method used by Chris Pendleton, I will also dig out the relevant MRJ.
I have never been happy with the technique of soldering on the return crank, I have a set of expensive wheels with a melted crank pin area where to much heat applied. Your explanation of the maths of the screwed on crank has helped eliminate that idea!

David

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45609
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby 45609 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:03 pm

David,

I read CP’s notes on crank pins and return cranks again this evening (MRJ 219). It seems he does still rely on torque tightening to secure things but all is scaled up from 14BA. He makes his own crank pins and 12BA crank pin nuts. Thin copper shims, made with a home made punch, are used as spacers to adjust the return crank angle when tightened up. Unfortunately there are no photos of the punch or shims.

Cheers...Morgan

Julian Roberts
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Julian Roberts » Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:45 am

Loads about all this including much advice from Dave and others over last 3 and a bit pages of my Crab conversion thread. I found 14BA thread is not compatible with 1M Gibson crankpin over a longer length than a retaining nut. Final bit was tightening up against shims then lightly locking with threadlock. viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5538&start=175

Philip Hall
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Philip Hall » Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:54 pm

I have a favourite (but not probably very PC) solution to this one. I substitute a brass 14BA screw for the steel middle crankpin, and tap the return crank 14BA. Once the correct angle is set, I solder the crank to the crankpin, with a hot iron and 188 degree or electrical solder. The brass crankpin means that the solder takes easily (far better than steel) and if a minimum of solder is used, the crank can be untwisted later if required.

Philip

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:35 pm

It's a 4-6-0! Well, sort of. Besides some progress with the cylinders - wrapper, inspection covers and front cylinder and valve covers, I've assembled the basic front bogie frame and temporarily popped the wheels in to see where the axles come in the slots. I've made a rather major boo-boo because I fitted the wrong centre casting and that has thrown the mounting height out, so a suitable spacer tube has had to be fitted to the mounting screw to compensate. I'm thinking of adding a representation of the side bearer casting to fill the gap between the bottom of the main frames and top of the bogie frames. Even though it's all behind the cylinder drain pipes, to me it looks a bit empty in that region.
In these photos, I've inserted my buffer/AJ height gauge into the buffer stocks to set the front end to the correct height. The height will be finally set by balancing the springs against added weight.
BM_Blk5_45284_022.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_023.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_024.JPG


Regarding return crank retention, I'll stick to my usual method of attaching the crank to an Ultrascale front retainer, setting the angle by carefully shortening the threaded part of the retainer. Obviously, other methods work for other people. My experience with soldering anywhere near Gibson wheels has been a total disaster although I've seen that method used with Ultrascale wheels. Perhaps they are a higher melting point plastic?
Dave.

triumph3
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby triumph3 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:32 pm

Dave, can you post a little sketch ( cross section perhaps) of your method of attaching return cranks as I struggling to understand how it works.

Thanks

David

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:13 am

OK, here is my attempt at a sketch to show the return crank arrangement I use as standard, based on Gibson wheels and the use of Ultrascale crank pin bushes. The Ultrascale bushes are designed to fit their own wheels, which have a counterbore in the front of the wheel, such that the crank throw is set by the reduced diameter section of the bush locates in this counterbore rather than relying on the crank pin screw. However, to suit the Gibson wheels, I solder the rear washer to the bush to form a top hat shaped bush that simply fits over the crank pin and seats on the face of the wheel boss. To help with clearances, I thin the washer (and flange of the retainer) by filing. Typically, the washers are 0.33 mm as supplied and end up between 0.2 and 0.25 mm.
Return_crank_arrangement.jpg

As can be seen, the crank pin screw head is recessed into the back of the wheel and is fixed by use of thread locking liquid and a brass wire "staple" seated into the slot in the screw head and into two holes drilled into the wheel.
The short tube inner crank pin bush is longer than the thickness of the coupling rod, so provides an inner bearing support for the connecting rod.
The flange of a threaded front retainer is soldered to the inner face of the return crank and screwed onto the crank pin to retain the connecting rod. The end of the retainer is filed away till the return crank tightens up in the correct orientation and there is still a small amount of sideways clearance for the rods.
As Morgan has explained earlier in the thread, this method has a number of shortcomings but, without access to a lathe it allows a reasonably reliable method that can be achieved with simple hand tools.
Personally, I haven't found it too difficult to get the return crank to tighten at the correct angle but I have found that repeated assembly and disassembly leads to the crank gradually tightening further round. This might be due to the crank pin screw being pulled into the wheel centre of the rather thin end of the retainer being compressed. As a result, I end up using thread lock on final assembly. It must be said that I have had return cranks (and front coupling rod retainers, too) come unscrewed in use and needing to be refitted with more thread lock.
Hope that helps.
Dave.

triumph3
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby triumph3 » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:56 pm

Dave, thanks for that, now I understand how you do it. I have a good supply of Ultrascale bits so will give this a try on my next loco ( likely to be a Bachmann Jubilee conversion.

David

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:19 pm

Moving on from crank pins, some progress has been made with the front bogie in terms of filling in the gap between the bogie frames and the chassis main frames. To do this, I've made a representation of the cast side bearer "pan" mounted to the top of the bogie. In order to retain the kit design of suspension, using coil springs and plungers, mounted in the external equalising beams and bearing on the underside of the main chassis, I've fitted tubular bearing pads fixed to the top of the pan, so the plungers pass through. On the prototype, there are solid bearing cups fixed to the chassis which slide on top of the "pan".
This is what it should look like.
Stanier_bogie_001.jpg

Here is my modified representation.
First, the "pan" and the external compensating beams from the kit. As shown, my "pan" extends right across the bogie on a level, whereas the prototype dips down between the frames which is hard to replicate with a fabricated assembly rather than a casting. It won't really show in the gloom under the loco.
BM_Blk5_45284_025.JPG

Then the assembled bogie.
BM_Blk5_45284_026.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_027.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_028.JPG

Then in place under the chassis. Obviously, there needs to be some weight applied to compress the springs and fully seat the bearers.
BM_Blk5_45284_029.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_030.JPG

Dave.

triumph3
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby triumph3 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:17 pm

Dave, very interesting. I see that you have put 2 longditunal brass wires bearing on the axles and you have deleted the 2 very small vertical springs that bear down on the equalising. Have you tried out this arrangement?
I am attaching the diagram from the Brassmasters instructions.
D0FC4253-35C5-4192-AB07-A276D0AE36BC.jpeg
Brassmasters diagram.

Look forward to seeing further progress.

David

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:11 pm

David.
The small vertical springs and plungers are used but they're hidden inside the tubular bearing pads (actually, they fell out whilst I was handling the chassis upside down, so I've removed them to safe storage for the time being). The two horizontal wire springs are simply to lightly push the bogie frame up against the underside of the chassis rubbing plate, otherwise, it drops down slightly due to the working clearances.
In the last photo, the top of the bearing tube is clear of the rubbing plate and this proved to be caused by the guard irons catching the flange of the front wheels. Once this was adjusted, the bogie now lifts up to meet the chassis, as intended.
Dave.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:15 pm

I have a bit of a dilemma regarding the loco pick-ups. I've fitted pick-ups to the top of the front drivers and behind the brake blocks on the rear, but I just can't find a routing for pick-ups to the centre drivers.
The dilemma is: do I live with pick up from just the two axles or do I try to also arrange some additional pick up from the tender? In this latter case, it might not be that easy to fit in the wiring/plug arrangement in amongst all the bits of wire representing the inter-connecting hoses, which I like to fully replicate.
Pick-ups fitted are shown below. Also seen is one of the pads attached to the gearbox sides for the motor and, later, DCC chip wiring.
BM_Blk5_45284_031.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_032.JPG

Dave.

Philip Hall
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:37 pm

Dave,

For as long as I can remember I have put in tender pickups on at least two axles, and the steadier running that results is noticeable. I find less need for wheel cleaning, too, as there are more wheels picking up the juice. On a home built engine the leads can resemble the hoses between engine and tender, but I do see you’re a bit tight for space. I use tiny plugs and sockets I got years ago at a show somewhere (I need to find some more) and usually the socket is attached under the tender so only two wires show between engine and tender.

Many years ago, when RTR got so much better, Hornby started putting on tender pickups, and later on front bogie ones as well; Bachmann followed suit later. This prompted me to install pickups on the front and rear trucks of a BR 2-6-2T 82xxx, in truth this was a bit of a fiddle!

Philip

triumph3
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby triumph3 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:16 pm

An easy place to find small 2 pin connectors is the DCC suppliers as in lots of sound installations the speakers are in the tender with the chip in the loco. Coastal DCC, Sunningwell DCC are 2 places in the Unknown’s that can supply such micro pins.

David

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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:53 pm

Pity we didn't discuss this yesterday, at Warley. I could have browsed the traders for something suitable. I may just fit a couple of small PCB pads under the loco drag box to allow flying leads from the tender to be soldered on. As I use a permanent tender coupling, this won't be too inconvenient since the loco and tender only get separated form maintenance or if there's a problem.
I've now wired up the gearbox mounted pads to the pick-up bus bars and temporarily connected the motor leads. We have motion! Not dead smooth, but not bad for the first powered movement. A bit of oil and running in will hopefully result in better running, in due course.
BM_Blk5_45284_033.JPG

The motor/gear box torque reaction arrangement is very simple. A vertical strip of brass has been attached to the valve gear mounting frame, just in front of the gear box, and a small "U" shaped hook fixed to the top of the strip, holding a wire rod in the top front of the gear box, allowing the latter to slide up and down on the suspension.
BM_Blk5_45284_034.JPG

Dave.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:46 am

Progress continues at a snail's pace in between other interests and a series of set backs with the construction. I don't know why, but I seem to be struggling more than usual with this project. Hope it's not a sign of gradual decline!
First up were the cast nickel silver valve guides. I had already decided to replace the cast valve spindle cross heads from the kit with some better looking examples on some spare sprues that I had and to cut off the cast valve spindles and replace them with 0.6 mm n/s wire. To give good support to the spindles they run inside extended brass tubes, nearly the full length of the cylinders. That required the (solid) castings to be drilled 1 mm to take the tube. I created a simple drilling jig consisting of a block of hardwood, fixed to the bed of my small vertical drill and drilled to accept the 1.5 mm mounting peg on the guide casting. Then without moving anything, the 1 mm holes could be drilled concentric with the mounting pegs. Well, that was the theory. On the first one, I either didn't seat the casting properly or I let it tilt over during drilling, with the result that the hole was at an angle and broke through the mounting peg - disaster! The second was OK. By some filing with the tip of a needle file and then drilling to 1.5 mm, I was able to reclaim the errant casting and insert a tubular sleeve to form a new mounting peg and locate the 1 mm bearing tube. Phew! Here are the valve guides after drilling and rectification with the modified valve cross heads.
BM_Blk5_45284_035.JPG

The guides were then soldered into the cylinders, using a piece of rod across the two, through the slots in the guides, to help orientated them.
BM_Blk5_45284_036.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_037.JPG

Next a start was made on the valve gear components. This loco is one of those that had a straight, fluted combination levers and short, forked union links. These latter are really quite small items and difficult to handle whilst forming and joining the laminations. Despite using cigarette paper and a slight dab of oil, I managed to solder the joint to the combination lever solid on one item. Stupidly, I tried to waggle it free but instead snapped the eyes off one end of the union link. That could have been fatal to the loco if I had not got another kit in stock, for a loco that has a different type of union links, so providing spares for the broken one. I managed to ping one layer of the replacement from the tweezers and had no idea which direction it went. By sheer chance, I found it on the floor and was able to complete the job.
This photo shows a trial assembly of one side to check clearance between the radius rod end and the valve spindle cross head before anything is soldered together.
BM_Blk5_45284_038.JPG

Still lots to do. Let's hope the remainder goes a bit more smoothly.
Dave.
Last edited by Dave Holt on Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

davebradwell
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby davebradwell » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:21 pm

Dave, I've been using lace pins to assemble forked valve gear for years now. These have a bulge behind the point which should be cut off and very slight long taper towards the head so with great care it's possible to broach holes and achieve press fits so no solder. After cutting off excess pin from the rear, possibly with side cutters, a couple of very light taps with a small ball pein hammer produce a tiny burr which adds further security after clearances have been checked. Yes, the heads need filing down first. I can never resist a smile as I attack my Walschaerts with the hammer.

If it's necessary to split the joint, the little burr can be filed off and the pin pushed out without damage with fork supported over appropriate size hole.

Useful in signals, too, particularly NER slotted post types and tiny ground discs.

DaveB

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:05 pm

Dave,
Yes, I use lace making pins but only where the etched gear is simplified and doesn't have forked ends. I did think of using them here, after my problem. The issue is that some of the holes etched in the rods are already rather too big - the instructions state 0.45 wire for some joints but I've had to use 0.6 or 0.7 to get a reasonable fit in the fork holes. My lace pins are either 0.55 or 0.6 shafts so might work in some joints.
Dave.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:20 pm

Black 71/2?
BM_Blk5_45284_039.JPG

I took 44781 to Barrow Road a few weeks ago but thought it had lost a front crank pin retainer so didn't run it. Today, I decided to look at replacing the lost part but found, when viewed in a good light, that the original is still in place. It's rather more recessed than I tend to do now and very dark, so wasn't easily visible on the layout. I did notice that the retainers have become very sloppy fits in the rod ends, presumably due to wear, but the loco still moves very smoothly. Might give it a run out at the NLG next week.
Not much progress with 45232 but both radius rods are now done.
Dave.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:58 pm

It's been quite a while since I posted anything about this loco. That's because there has been virtually no progress, what with the Festive period and a complete loss of motivation and enthusiasm. Anyway, I've started to get back into it now, so things are moving again.
Both sets of valve gear have been assembled and the return cranks attached to the screwed retainers, such that they should tighten up in the right position. The next job will be to fit the gear to the support frame and attach the anchor links to the cross head drop links.
BM_Blk5_45284_040.JPG

Hopefully, it won't be as long till the next update.

Dave.

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Serjt-Dave » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:38 am

Looking good Dave. The Brassmaster Black 5 {and the Jubilee's} are lovely kits to make {unlike their 4f which I'm making}. Following your progress with interest as I have two Black 5's to do myself. Well Done.

Dave

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:19 am

Hi Dave.
Thanks. Yes, I've seen your trials and tribulations with the 4F. As I also have one of these to do, I'll keep a close eye on the issues you raise.
Dave.

Julian Roberts
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:26 pm

Please don't lose heart Dave! Will you or your locos be at Scalefour North?
The combination lever looks as though it's been modified? Or have you mentioned that already.


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