Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Dave Holt
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Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:35 pm

I've put the Ivatt Class 2 tank to one side whilst I figure out how best to deal with the Bachmann body - the question being whether to do major surgery to replace the boiler with a spare DJH cast white metal unit or stick with the moulded plastic version. Suggestions on a post card......

Instead, I've decided to progress a Brassmasters Black 5 which I started some years ago and got as far as having the frames assembled (and painted in way of the driving and coupled wheels) with the axleboxes in, ready to be wheeled. The loco selected is one of the Armstrong Whitworth long firebox type. The running number chosen has been changed recently to one allocated to Newton Heath in the mid 1950's. Unfortunately, I haven't managed to find any published photos of this particular loco at that time so I'm making some guesses and assumptions about some of the details and changes that might have occurred since its original construction. I've assumed that the wheel sets would have been exchanged to provide a solid centre axle in place of the original hollow version which appears to have been the case on most locos from this batch for which I have photos. The axle holes don't go right through, just 5 or 6 mm in from each end. The friend who drilled them feared snapping a drill (1.1 mm dia) if he tried go go right through.

Recent activity has been to fettle the Gibson wheels (previously drilled for the crank pins), fit the crank pins and, today, to fit the wheel sets to the frames, as shown below. The wheels are clearly from two different batches, as indicated by the colour of the centre moulding. As I recall, I discovered a poorly machined flange on one wheel which was replaced without any quibble.

I note there has been some discussion about crank pin fitting and retention on my 9F thread. This loco follows my normal practice of modified Ultrascale bushes mounted on 14 BA cheese head screws. The heads are recessed into the back of the wheel and the centre ones are both treated to application of locking fluid and fitting brass wire staples set into the screw driver slot and holes either side of the screw head. To obtain adequate side play, the rear bosses on the centre wheels were filed almost flush with the rear of the spokes.

BM_Blk5_45284_001.JPG


The kit instructions suggest completion of the brake gear next, together with sand pipes to front and centre axles, then pick-ups. Sounds like a plan.

There won't be any progress tomorrow as I've decided to go to the O Gauge show at Telford. No, I'm not contemplating a change of scale, but I really like some of the stuff that appears on RMweb and Western Thunder, so I thought I'd go to see some of it in the flesh, so to speak.

Dave.
Last edited by Dave Holt on Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

davebradwell
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45284

Postby davebradwell » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:26 pm

Dave, have you compared the diameters of the original and replacement wheels? The prototype had a tight spec. on this as any significant difference meant the loco was trying to tear itself apart with one bit attempting to go faster than another. I'm not sure what the limit should be as just dividing down the full size tolerance would give a terrifying answer but knowing what the difference is would at least lead to consideration of the matter.

It's going to be another winner, anyway and I'll watch the build with interest.

DaveB

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45284

Postby Dave Holt » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:46 pm

Dave,
I hadn't really given any thought at all to the question of diameters of different batches, just assumed all the tyres are machined to the same tolerance, whatever the batch. I'm not familiar with the production process, but can one assume that tyres and moulded centres are made in batches together and then assembled or are the two parts made as required and randomly assembled from different batches?
In any case, the tread diameter isn't that easy to measure accurately, due to the coning and the flange to tread radius.
Prompted by your comment, I've tried to measure the wheel diameters and find a difference of 0.02 mm between the odd pair and one of the originals. The two black centred wheels are 0.01 mm different in diameter.
It remains to be seen if the loco tears itself apart whilst running.
Dave.

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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45284

Postby davebradwell » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:54 am

That seems very good - I was just raising the point as I once had significant differences in days gone by and they were very easy to measure. Just something to be aware of, really. Perhaps this is one less issue to worry about in future, although worth bearing in mind when digging out some old stock that's been lurking in a dark corner waiting for its day to come. I've heard of unco-operative wagons later found to have different size wheels each end of the axle but that's an entirely different matter.

DaveB

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45284

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:04 pm

Phew! Very near to a complete disaster today but I think I've just about got away with it.
Spent some time finishing off the brake gear by fitting the cross beams, pull rods and crank and securing the brake hangers, which had been left loose in their mountings to the frames. All appeared to have gone well so I moved on to the balance weight plates on the wheels. I then noticed that, somehow, I had partly melted the front face of a couple of the spokes on the RHS centre driving wheels. I must have caught them with the soldering iron whilst concentrating on the brake hanger fixing.
After an initial surge of despair, I found that the worst of the damage would be covered by the balance weight and there doesn't appear to be any detrimental effect on the wheel itself. There is some slight visible deformation of the spokes inboard of the balance weight but I have tried to build up the surface with layers of super glue (a technique used by aircraft modellers, I believe) and once this is fully cured, I will dress the spokes as best I can to hide the damage.
Note to self; be more aware where the hot iron beyond the tip is relative to the model!
Slightly out of focus view of the damaged wheel, after fitting the balance weight. The melted spokes are third and fourth down from the top edge of the balance weight.
BM_Blk5_45284_003.JPG

Overall view of the chassis showing the brake gear and balance weights fitted.
BM_Blk5_45284_002.JPG

Dave.

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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45284

Postby Knuckles » Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:18 am

Just read the whole thread. One to watch as I'll need a black 5 sorting out, either a Hornby conversion or a fresh build.

Needs to go round horrable curves though so can see it needing some abuse!
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Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45284

Postby Dave Holt » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:10 pm

Generally speaking, I do a lot of planning and scheming to work out when and how to fit various components during loco construction. For parts provided in the kit, I find the instructions are usually a pretty good guide although some deviations might seem appropriate here and there. For additional details, not included in the kit, a bit more thought is needed. This approach has stood me in good stead, overall, but I have come a bit of a cropper on this chassis.
For my own satisfaction, I decided to fit the whole length of the supply pipe to the exhaust steam injector, including a representation of the grease separator, even though a lot of it will not be visible from normal viewing angles. As it is chunky and stiff (1.6 mm diameter), I thought it best to fit it before trying to route pick-ups, which can be bent as necessary to avoid it. The Pipe & Rod drawings in the Wild Swan Profile books were studied and the pipe run set out, model size, on paper against which the pipe could be assembled. The line sketches are shown in one of the photos.
The pipe is formed from various diameters of brass wire and tube and arranged to plug into the inlet end of the cast white metal injector body provided in the kit.
The resultant pipe looked a rather good representation of the real thing and matched the sketches well in shape and dimensions. I must admit to feeling rather pleased with myself.
Oh, but pride comes before the fall! No matter how I wiggled and twisted the pipe, I could not get it to fit past various existing parts of the chassis. I contemplated splitting the pie into sections and then re-joining them in situ, but eventually, it dawned that if I removed the rear brake stretcher bar, it could be slide in from the rear, located through the hole on a front frame spacer and then eased into position. Luckily, the brake stretcher came off without too much trouble and was easily re-fitted after the pipe was in position.
The injector and a couple of wires representing the live steam feed and part of the water feed have been added, to give a bit more strength to the rather exposed injector casting.
View showing the line sketch used to make the pipe.
BM_Blk5_45284_009.JPG

Various views of the chassis with the pipe and injector in place.
BM_Blk5_45284_004.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_005.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_006.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_007.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_008.JPG

And one (slightly blurred) showing the feed pipes added.
BM_Blk5_45284_010.JPG


Dave.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:07 pm

Not a great deal of progress over the past few weeks but I have assembled the cylinder/slide bar/valve gear bracket unit to help determine space and clearances for my intended pick up position on top of the wheels. Normally, I try to position the pick ups behind the brake blocks, where they are barely visible, and which I intended for this model. However, having fixed wheel sets, brake gear and other under frame details, I've been forced to reconsider.
Indeed, the next step will be the running plate, as this may also impact on the new pick up arrangements.
As intended by the kit, the cylinder/slide bar/valve gear bracket unit is removable from the top of the frames to facilitate assembly of the valve gear off the chassis and allows for painting and future maintenance.
Here is the current state of the chassis, with the latest unit in position. The rear covers for the cylinders are in position, but not yet fixed in place, as can be seen.
BM_Blk5_45284_011.JPG

The kit intends the unit to just sit in place, held only by the footplate, which fits over it. I have added two retaining screws through ears on the motion bracket, one of which is visible in this shot. I have also modified the top of the valve gear frame to give more clearance to the wheels, which appeared to be rather too close to it on full suspension compression.
The pick ups for the front wheels will be attached to the bus-bars between the frames, pass over the frames in front of the steps down, then double back to the top of the wheels. The centre pick ups will pass through the triangular opening in the frames, below the valve gear bracket. The rear pick ups will be below the ash pan casting and bear on the back of the wheels behind the brake blocks, as per my usual practice.
BM_Blk5_45284_012.JPG

One other change since the last posting is a change to running number to 45232. This is another Newton Heath shedded Armstrong Whitworth loco. I had struggled to find any photos of the original loco in my period of interest (mid to late 1950's) but I have found a couple of the new example.
Dave.

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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:19 am

I've been steadily, if slowly, ploughing on with the footplate/cab assembly over the past week or so. This is now complete as far as the main components are concerned although there are still various smaller parts to add at a later stage.
The main reason for assembling the footplate before getting the chassis running is to help determine the routing for the top mounted pick-ups for the front and centre wheels.
Quite a bit of fettling and adjustments have been necessary to get the footplate to sit nicely on the chassis and valve gear support frame. Part of this included adding two 14BA screws to pull the front, dropped part of the footplate hard against the chassis spacers. This has proved fortuitous as, when fitting the unit to the chassis for final checking (and photos), I managed to push the main, captive holding down screw out of the chassis, breaking the obviously poor quality soldered joint between screw and retaining washer in the process. It's clear that this screw is now redundant, so I'll remove the nut from the top of the footplate, making seating of the smoke box saddle that much easier.
Here are some photos of the footplate and cab in position. The last one shows the footplate support brackets fixed to the chassis between the centre and rear driving wheels.

BM_Blk5_45284_013.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_014.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_015.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_016.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_017.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_018.JPG


Dave.

Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:53 pm

Help! I've suffered a major set back with the project.
I was laminating the connecting rods and dropped one on the floor. Nothing unusual about that, but search as I might, I have been unable to find it. 16BA nuts - no problem. A piece of nickel silver 40-odd millimetres long - just vanished into thin air. A good half hour on hands and knees has failed to locate the missing item.
If anyone has a spare set of the long type connecting rods, parts A15 & 16 they could bear to part with, I'd be most appreciative and reimburse any costs. No doubt the lost part will turn up the moment a replacement is obtained.
Fingers crossed,
Dave.

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Andy W
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Andy W » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:07 pm

Dave, drop something else on the floor and look for that. You’ll find the rod.
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Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:36 pm

Not sure that's a good idea, could end up losing the whole kit, bit by bit.
Had another search after tea, tonight, but still no sign. However, looking through my spares box, I've had a real stroke of luck and found the two layers of the exact type of rod, left over from my previous Brassmasters Black 5, which had the short type rods. Phew!
Perhaps I'd better have these on a lanyard whilst handling them, just to be sure.
Dave.

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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby tmcsean » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:43 am

Sometimes whole minutes fly by without my dropping something tiny and important, but a partial solution is the old jewellers/goldsmiths trick of wearing an apron with the bottom fixed to the underside of the workbench. I learned this from Prem Holdaway and it has saved me hours of fruitless searching. It doesn't always catch things that spring away with a mind of their own but it does also save your clothes from accidental spatter when your experimental paint stirrer throws a wobbler.

Tony

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Guy Rixon » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:19 pm

Two things I've learned for tracking escaped parts: always double the search radius from your first guess, and use a UV torch. Small things bounce much further than people expect and shiny NS sometimes shows up brighter in short-wavelength light.

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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Lindsay G » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:59 pm

This is maybe getting off thread, however...…

I did consider the apron idea but reckoned I moved about too much to keep reattaching the thing. My solution is to lay out an old plain coloured bedsheet beneath the work area, as the parts show up and don't bounce/roll away (wish I'd remembered to lay it out recently!).

Lindsay

Julian Roberts
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Julian Roberts » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:26 am

Dave I'm glad you found a spare rod. No doubt you'll find the one you lost when you're someday looking for something else.

I wonder what sort of suspension arrangement you'll have for the bogie. I would be very grateful if you can show the construction there in detail when you get to it. You have a very clever bogie compensation system that you described on another thread about a year ago but despite your diagram I reluctantly have to admit I still didn't fully understand it. Seeing photos of the process would probably shed light and understanding for my deficient powers of comprehension. But maybe this loco will have a different arrangement.

Thank you for sharing your continuing inspiration.

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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:34 am

Julian Roberts wrote:Thank you for sharing your continuing inspiration.

Seconded :thumb
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Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby Dave Holt » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:00 pm

Thanks for the kind comments.
Sorry to disappoint with this loco as I'm using the sprung suspension arrangement, as intended by the kit design. My previous Brassmasters Black 5 and Jubilee were also fully sprung. I do have yet another Black 5 to build and am intending to make that one fully compensated using the arrangement I have applied with good results to most of my locos.
Anyway, moving on with the current project, it now has coupling and connecting rods fitted and, following some modifications to the initial setup, now glides smoothly along my short test track after applying finger tip propulsion. It will be interesting to see if it is still as good under power. Before fitting the coupling rods, I felt that the front wheel set was not quartered quite the same as the other two axles, so the wheels ere twisted slightly and reset by eye. Amazingly, the rods fitted and ran smoothly without any further adjustment or opening out of the rod holes although, to be honest, these were already etched rather larger than I would have liked. The one setback was interference between the front crank pin retainer and the back of the connecting rods. This has necessitated thinning the rear washer to 0.2 mm and removing the outside raised boss on the front coupling rod. Indeed, a slight recess has been provided on both the inside and outside faces of the boss. It might have been easier to reduce the retainer flange diameter and recess it into the front rod face as I often do, although the method used here probably leaves a better bearing area between crank pin bush (the retainer) and the rod. The rear wheel crank pin nuts are 16BA drilled and tapped 14BA and thinned down, to better represent the size of nuts fitted to the prototype.
Fitting the connecting rods has allowed the piston rods to be trimmed to length.
BM_Blk5_45284_019.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_020.JPG

BM_Blk5_45284_021.JPG


Dave.

DougN
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby DougN » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:12 am

Looking great Dave. I have a Finney V2 which I am enjoying assembling. It has the Coupling rods on similar to your experience it rolled smoothly the first time :D . For the first time I opening the rods out to 1.6mm first then reaming them for running clearance.This was spot on the first time.

One thing I have noticed though is the Alan Gibson Crankpins seem to have been released in 2 lengths recently. I needed the longer versions for the last couple of loco's I have done.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

triumph3
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby triumph3 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:17 am

Dave, looking really good, I have a part built B5 which is about the same stage as yours. I have the lining transfers ready for you when you need it painting.
The front bogie represents some challenges as there seems to be problems when running so will be interested in how you approach this.i am about to build a Masokits bogie to go under a Hornby B5 and see how that goes.

David

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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby triumph3 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:53 am

Dave, Here is the current state of my latest B5.
IMG_0418.JPG

As usual the photo highlighted the front bogie guard irons touching the rails! This is going to be 45078 fitted with a part welded tender.

David

triumph3
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby triumph3 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:18 am

Dave, re the problem of small parts disappearing into the ether, I have a solution when assembling small parts ( following a recent escape bid by some high level axleboxes) I model in a small wooden office draw so if a part drops it stays in the box. For the rest of the modelling on my workbench. The project in the box is a Lanarkshire Models Stanier 4000gl tender to go under a Bachmann tender for a Jubilee which will have the loco converted later. Having seen how well my converted 45572 Eire runs on Robins Barrow Rd layout it seems the way to go.
0F6F903A-434E-4E96-A031-36FAE9AA61AA.jpeg


David

triumph3
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby triumph3 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:24 am

Dave, how are you planning to attach the return crank to the centre drivers?
I always have a problem with these, having meted the plastic on the centre drivers for a Jubilee. Some have suggested threading the crank and screwing it on.
Looking forward to seeing how you proceed with this.

David

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45609
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby 45609 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:34 pm

triumph3 wrote: Some have suggested threading the crank and screwing it on.
Looking forward to seeing how you proceed with this.


Some really nice work going on here Dave. Following with interest.

Hope you don't mind If I chip in here Dave and David?

Threading a hole in the return crank and tightening it up against the face of a crank pin bush is possible but it can be very tricky to get the angular position exactly right. The crankpin thread (assumed M1 although it might be 14BA) only has a thread pitch of 0.25mm (14BA thread pitch is 0.23mm). This means that when screwing the return crank onto the crank pin one full turn (i.e. 360 degrees) of the return crank will advance it axially by 0.25mm. The issue is getting the crankpin bush exactly the right length to tighten up to the correct position. I would say that +/- 5 degrees of angular position would look quite noticably wrong when looking at a finished loco. But this only requires the crankpin bush to be longer or shorter than the correct length by +/- 1.4% of a thread pitch. In other words +/- 3.5 microns ( .0001" or 1 tenth-thousand of an inch). In my estimation the objective is to tighten it up hard, as the primary retention means (i.e. torque), against the end face of the bush so that the risk of coming loose in normal use is minimised. Obviously with a conventional RH thread this works for you and against you depending on the rotation direction of the return crank. Going past the desired angle (crankpin bush too short) will result in the temptation to back off the crank slightly and leaving it with insufficient torque. The result is more risk of self loosening and later valve gear failure/disintergration. Not getting to the desired angle (crankpin bush too long) tempts you to over tighten if it is "nearly there" and risks shearing the crank pin off. If pursuing this method, and in the event of getting it wrong, the pragmatic solution is to use a secondary retention method (thread lock or solder) to make sure things are secure. But then I'd question the wisdom of going to the trouble of doing the threading and manufacture of a crank pin bush with a very tight length tolerance in the first place. I like and prefer the Chris Pendlenton idea of filing a square hole into the return crank and setting it onto an oversized crankpin (say 1/16" or 1.5mm) with a square spigot on the end to mount the return crank. These parts can be made and trial fitted to the wheel before the crankpin is finally set in position. The return crank angle can be tuned to precisely the right position. Once happy with the set up the crank pin can be locked or pinned into the wheel at this position with a pin from the back or something like that. This method also avoids the unwinding/over tightening risk of using conventional RH threads. Final setting of the return crank would still require a bit of solder but subsequent removal would be far easier should the need arise.

Cheers...Morgan

P.S. Chris P's ideas on this are in MRJ 219 and 221
Last edited by 45609 on Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PeteT
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Re: Brassmasters Blk5 45232

Postby PeteT » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:29 pm

Sounds interesting Morgan! The only bit which sounds dubious (for me to achieve, not in the overall technical possibility!) is the square hole, being pretty small. If only there were metal morticers!

Those MRJs are gaps in my stock, but thanks for the numbers - I'll hunt them down.


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