Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

[mikemeg]

It looks as though t'system has got summat in a twist, nesting quotes. End of poor attempt at Yorkshire vernacular.

No, Knuckles didn't write the line. I did and all is now correct.

Cheers

Mike

[mikemeg]

Getting back to locos, here's another photo - once again courtesy Mick Nicholson - of A2 2403 City of Durham entering York station from the north. This picture must be earlier than the last photo - again of 2403 - as here, the loco is paired with its original North Eastern 4125 gallon tender.

One of these - 2404 City of Ripon - was fitted with a Gresley A1 boiler in 1929 which, with its Gresley 8 wheel tender, really did make it look a monstrous beast! All five had been withdrawn by the end of 1937.

What a great collection of North Eastern slotted post, lower quadrant signals can be seen!

Cheers

Mike

[Paul Willis]

And a plea!! Since I joined this site, on October 22nd, I've made around 10% of the new postings to the entire site. So come on, there must be many more folk with something to show!!

Mike,

First of all, thank you for your posts - there is some inspirational modelling in there, and the Forum is a richer place for them.

To answer your implied question, the traffic on the Society Forum ebbs and flows. Some days there can be a large number of posts, but on other days there may be just two or three.

I suppose that it all depends on what people are doing at any point in time. Summer tends to be quieter, with all of the other usual "outside world" distractions. And for those of us still doing it, there is the evil work that gets in the way of valuable modelling time. I know personally that I have done virtually nothing for the last twelve months, and I expect to do very little between now and 29 March next year, at the earliest.

But that doens't mean that we aren't interested in what other members are doing, and very much appreciating seeing the results. Please do keep posting!

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman

[Julian Roberts]

Mike may I too thank you for your inspirational thread. I followed your link to ArthurK's thread and that was also most interesting.

Just a question - how do you create the weathered/grime/oil effect on your painted locos coupling and connecting rods?

I suppose you have no plans to model an 0-8-0T Q1? I like your words on the beauty of the steam loco. I find equally a perverse beauty in the big bad ugly ones too!

[mikemeg]

Mike may I too thank you for your inspirational thread. I followed your link to ArthurK's thread and that was also most interesting.

Just a question - how do you create the weathered/grime/oil effect on your painted locos coupling and connecting rods?

I suppose you have no plans to model an 0-8-0T Q1? I like your words on the beauty of the steam loco. I find equally a perverse beauty in the big bad ugly ones too!

Firstly I must thank both yourself and Paul Willis for the very kind words and you may be assured that I shall 'keep on posting'. In fact I've posted a few photos of aircraft - very fast aircraft - on another of my threads. Photography, especially of fast moving objects (jet aircraft) is another of my pursuits.

In response to the question, above, re painting motion work :-

I use Railmatch paints, obtainable from Howes Models of Kidlington, Oxford. This range of enamels contains not only many of the pre-grouping and 'big four' colours but also some wonderful colour effects. Usual disclaimer; I am merely a very satisfied customer.

The colour I use most often is their 'Weathered Black' which is really a very dark grey and which does give the locos that weathered look. Another of these 'colours' is oily steel, which is the basic colour that I use to paint motion work. Where the motion is really rusty and unloved, then I add MIG colouring powder (Vietnam Earth) to the oily steel by mixing in a tiny palette. I save the plastic tops off plastic milk containers to use as 'one time' mixing trays and first slightly dilute the oily steel enamel with thinner and then add just a little of the powder until the required colour is achieved. I also often use a very dilute wash of this same mixture on the mainframes, wheels, brakes and sand pipes.

The Bachmann J72 rebuild - 68724 - shown earlier, had most of these processes applied and the LNER Q5/2, shown much earlier in the thread had all of them applied and a few more.

I should, perhaps, add that one of my other pastimes is painting and drawing so playing with colours is an essential part of that.

Hope that helps.

As for the 0-8-0 Q1, which I believe were rebuilds of Great Central/LNER Q4 locos, strangely I have the 4mm drawings for this prototype. I have just begun an ex-GC 4-6-0 which became LNER Class B4 - 61482 Immingham. So when that is completed, some time early next year, I might just build a Q1. Oh and wasn't there an 0-8-4 tank from the same source (Great Central) which weighed in (all up) at nearly 100 tons? These must have been enormous things, dwarfing the 4-8-0 T1's from the North Eastern.

If I am allowed good eyesight and a steady hand for a few more years, then I'll go through the ex-GC classes as I have with the NER, though only those which would have been seen at or through Hull in 1948 - 1950; with a little bit of license!

Cheers

Mike

[Noel]

Oh and wasn't there an 0-8-4 tank from the same source (Great Central) which weighed in (all up) at nearly 100 tons?

GC class 8H, LNER class S1, BR 69900-5. Weight 99 tons and a few cwts without booster, the actual weight depending on the sub-class. Presumably therefore over 100 tons when booster fitted.

[mikemeg]

Oh and wasn't there an 0-8-4 tank from the same source (Great Central) which weighed in (all up) at nearly 100 tons?

GC class 8H, LNER class S1, BR 69900-5. Weight 99 tons and a few cwts without booster, the actual weight depending on the sub-class. Presumably therefore over 100 tons when booster fitted.

Well the nearest I can get to that is this one; the LNER Class T1 4-8-0 tank. This was a comparitive lightweight compared to the S1 monsters, weighing in at a mere 85 tons.

This was the first locomotive I built when I came back into the hobby around fifteen years ago, after a thirty year lay off and was built to P4 standards, from the outset. I happened to have a set of 4mm drawings for this class, from the Railway Modeller, which was the main reason for choosing this prototype. The model is largely scratch built using plasticard as the principal medium, though with a white metal cast boiler. The plasticard tank sides are reinforced with sheet lead, inside, and I have had absolutely no problems with the plasticard warping or twisting; the body is virtually a solid piece.

This was weighted to around 16 ounces (too heavy?) and is driven by a Mashima 1630, with flywheel and a 50 : 1 gearbox. It has easily shifted eighty wagons on a test track, before one of the leading wagon couplings broke. T'weren't one of my wagons, I hasten to add.

The model has had a fairly extensive chassis rebuild using parts from a 52F Models etched chassis kit, for this loco, in place of the original scratch built chassis.

Anyway, still going strong is 69915, this one based at Hull Dairycoates shed in mid 1950.

I learnt a lot, on this model, about conveying the impression of size and of weight but I learned even more, on that subject, from a relatively brief time in the company of Guy Williams, many years ago. So, nearly forty model locomotives later, I'm still pretty satisfied with this model.

And the oil, muck and grime on those crossheads and connecting rods is just that; oil, muck and grime accumulated over about twelve years. I do oil the slide bars and the piston rods every six months or so but I don't clean the rods. Prototypically accurate - just filthy!! Yet still a handsome thing, the T1 tank.

The model is finished in Railmatch Weathered Black and then very lightly weathered with various very diluted colours - white (for limescale), rusts and very diluted coloured white spirit washes. The photo is lit by that daylight lamp again!

Cheers

Mike

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER A6

Now well into its journey through the paint shop is this; another LNER A6. This is the last of the four A6's I have built and is being finished in ex-works state. The model is one of Arthur's North Eastern Kits production kits for the A6 and is to portray 69791 after its last heavy overhaul and repaint. So there are no limescale or rusty washes on this, just blackberry black.

Still quite a lot of lining to add but it's beginnng to look right in its new coat of satin black and will have a full set of British railways mixed traffic lining, with the lion and wheel emblem on its tank sides.

This loco retained its Westingouse pump until withdrawal, though it was also fitted with vacuum braking equipment. And it also retained the capuchon on its chimney, again until withdrawal.

And yes, I do have a fondness for these large tank locos! For me, tank locos didn't get much better than this. So next year, I will build a fifth of these, to be 69793 which was, again, slightly different from all of the rest!

During a build I will take up to forty digital photos, simply to check the accuracy of the build, which is why I can post so many photographs on here. The digital camera sees and shows much more than the naked eye seems to see. So on this photo I can see that the pipe from the Westinghouse pump regulator, to the cab, just ain't there; tis missing. T'will be rectified, forthwith.

Amazing that the thread has incurred so many views in just four weeks!

Cheers

Mike

[Julian Roberts]

Superb T1 Mike, as are all of your locos. Thank you for your weathering recipes. I like the subtlety yet effectiveness of the results.

What a privilege to have worked with Guy. Did you learn more things in principle from him than we read in his books would you say?

In the context of creating the illusion of weight I wonder what the downside is for you of a model being actually heavy at 16ozs/ 454g? I haven't had any wear problems with a loco of mine that weighs in at a behemoth 400g. And I rather think, though perhaps it is more imagination than reality, that the quality of movement, and effect of inertia, looks more real and heavy, the heavier the model.

Yes that S1 is even more bestial than the Q1!

[mikemeg]

Superb T1 Mike, as are all of your locos. Thank you for your weathering recipes. I like the subtlety yet effectiveness of the results.

What a privilege to have worked with Guy. Did you learn more things in principle from him than we read in his books would you say?

In the context of creating the illusion of weight I wonder what the downside is for you of a model being actually heavy at 16ozs/ 454g? I haven't had any wear problems with a loco of mine that weighs in at a behemoth 400g. And I rather think, though perhaps it is more imagination than reality, that the quality of movement, and effect of inertia, looks more real and heavy, the heavier the model.

Yes that S1 is even more bestial than the Q1!

Many thanks for the comments; much appreciated.

The downside of the T1's weight, which I thought might be premature motor/gearbox wear, has turned out to be nothing. And I absolutely agree with you that a heavier model does appear to move with much greater 'assurance' than a lighter one. Both of the Bachmann J72 rebuilds were weighted to more than their original weight - they are around 7 oz now - and geared at 108 : 1, as a result of which they no longer seem to skip around; they crawl, trundle and occasionally break into an awkward canter.

I spent only a day or two with Guy Williams, so principles were all that he could convey in such a short time. But I still use all of those principles and they really do work to convey, in 4 mm, the weight, the size and the sheer majesty of these machines :-

Scale thicknesses of materials.
Scale clearances, where possible. Especially on bogie and trailing wheel mainframe cutouts.
Model the paraphenalia under the footplate - sand pipes, outside injectors, bolts, etc.
Real coal and real coal loads in bunkers and tenders.
Etc.

And yes, I still weight all of my locos on the heavy side. 0-6-0 tanks are 6 - 8 oz; these A6's are 10- 12 oz. At least they take a lot of de-railing! I also use very low (high?) gearing; 60 : 1 for freight and mixed traffic locos and 108 : 1 for shunting locos.

Cheers

Mike

[Julian Roberts]

The downside of the T1's weight, which I though might be premature motor/gearbox wear, has turned out to be nothing. And I absolutely agree with you that a heavier model does appear to move with much greater 'assurance' than a lighter one. Both of the Bachmann J72 rebuilds were weighted to more than their original weight - they are around 7 oz now - and geared at 108 : 1, as a result of which they no longer seem to skip around; they crawl, trundle and occasionally break into an awkward canter.

I spent only a day or two with Guy Williams, so principles were all that he could convey in such a short time. But I still use all of those principles and they really do work to convey, in 4 mm, the weight, the size and the sheer majesty of these machines :-

Scale thicknesses of materials.
Scale clearances, where possible. Especially on bogie and trailing wheel mainframe cutouts.
Model the paraphenalia under the footplate - sand pipes, outside injectors, bolts, etc.
Real coal and real coal loads in bunkers and tenders.
Etc.

And yes, I still weight all of my locos on the heavy side. 0-6-0 tanks are 6 - 8 oz; these A6's are 10- 12 oz. At least they take a lot of de-railing! I also use very low (high?) gearing; 60 : 1 for freight and mixed traffic locos and 108 : 1 for shunting locos.

AHHHHH! Your reply is like the best apple crumble and custard after a very good meal!

[mikemeg]

AHHHHH! Your reply is like the best apple crumble and custard after a very good meal!

Julian,

Careful! I might take this as encouragement to consider a run at Masterchef, on the tele.

'Sow, mate, whatcha gonna cook fer us terday?'

'Crumbled pomme Worsdell, with a jus of Ravenberries, topped off with Dairycoates custard - Greg!'

Many thanks for the kind words; it is always much appreciated.

Cheers

Mike

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J71

Yet another of these ex North Eastern 0-6-0 tanks is this; the NER Class E / LNER J71. Again, this was a test build of one of Arthur's kits and, again, this loco was based in Hull in mid 1950.

If you're thinking 'this guy must have no end of these 0-6-0 shunting tanks' then you'd be right. There are currently eight of them on Hessle Haven with two more to be completed. Shame there are, as yet, no sidings to allow these locos to 'do their thing', so they spend their time poodling around on the up and down slow lines!'

Cheers

Mike

[Colin Parks]

Hello Mike. I have enjoyed looking through your latest posts.

The T1 looks quite a bruiser. It struck me that the water capacity of the T1, with its must have been much greater than that of the A6. I suppose that water consumption was dictated by kind of work each class of engine was required to perform.

Squeezing the brake gear in between the driving wheels on that loco must have demanded great skill.

All the best,

Colin

[mikemeg]

Hello Mike. I have enjoyed looking through your latest posts.

The T1 looks quite a bruiser. It struck me that the water capacity of the T1, with its must have been much greater than that of the A6. I suppose that water consumption was dictated by kind of work each class of engine was required to perform.

Squeezing the brake gear in between the driving wheels on that loco must have demanded great skill.

All the best,

Colin

Colin,

There was also a significant difference in that the A6 was a 2 cylinder loco, the T1 was a 3 cylinder loco so the water consumption, for any given distance, could have been greater on the T1.

The brake hangars, on the T1, were very small. Fitting them is made easier by the P4 wheels with their finer flanges; I'm not sure how this would work with the deeper flanges of OO wheels or even EM.

Cheers

Mike

[mikemeg]

When I took and posted the photo of the T1, shown in a posting above, it was pointed out to me, by a fellow modeller, that the weathering on the wheels was too stark and did not look realistic. I couldn't argue with this, it was too stark and unrealistic, and therefore I decided I had to do this again. So the weathering on the wheels has been redone using a much more diluted wash. Hopefully this looks more realistic.

I am a very strong advocate of people being absolutely objective, even critical, in their comments on these sites. Such comments, when made objectively, are enormously helpful in identifying flaws in models, in techniques, even in the assessment of ones own work. For anyone who might be dissuaded from posting by the receipt of critical comments there is a simple answer; don't post!

Big they certainly were; smelly and noisy they undoubtedly were; dirty, grimy and unkempt they often were but, for all that, they were lovely things these steam locomotives!

Cheers

Mike

[mikemeg]

On another thread, though within this topic area, there is a discussion as to the relative merits of springing v compensation of loco chassis and the treatment of tender chassis', bogies and pony trucks.

On all of the locos which I've built, the chassis' are either sprung with CSB's or are compensated on the rear two axles, with a 'rocking' front axle. By rocking, I mean that the axle uses hornblocks and guides but is pivoted at the centre point of the axle, using a brass or nickel silver beam. Where bogies are involved, then the bogie always takes some part of the loco weight, either by a centrally located spring bearing on the bogie cross stretcher or by a rubbing plate which bears on the bogie stretcher but is of a relatively small area.

The bogie pivot passes through the bogie in a slot in the bogie stretcher. This slot is long enough to cater for the maximum extent of the sideways movement of the bogie. This is hugely important! Simply using a hole in the bogie stretcher for the pivot, will result in the bogie attempting to derail on curves.

Obviously, what is essential, when arranging the distribution of adhesive weight onto a bogie, is to avoid the situation where the sideways and rotational movement of the bogie is impeded to the extent that it derails on curves. I should add that all of the bogies on the locos I've built are equalised, usually with compensating beams on each side of the bogie; this as part of the bogie design. With this arrangement, the bogie tends to 'straighten' the ride of the locomotive by acting as a partial extension of the fixed wheelbase portion of the chassis.

I did some tests with one of the A6 tanks, which have a very short six coupled wheelbase, to ascertain the effect of the bogie springing. Without the bogie springing and with the bogie effectively hanging on its pivot and 'along for the ride', the loco hunted slightly, from side to side, as it moved along. With only very light springing but still bringing some adhesive weight to bear on the bogie, this slight hunting was completely eliminated.

It is this damping effect which totally transforms the appearance of the movement of the model.

A very different problem arises with the G5's which are 0-4-4's. Here it is impossible to weight these locos in any way which avoids there being adhesive weight on the bogies. The driving wheelsets on all of these locos use compensation beams in conjunction with High Level axleboxes and axleguides. For the rear bogies, here I built up round bearings (around 5 mm diameter) which surround the bogie pivots and bear on the bogie stretchers. These are made from successive layers of .010" plasticard. After fitting each layer, the loco is checked for level and for the weighting on the bogie until an acceptable weight distribution is reached which does not distort the level and ride height of the locomotive and which will still allow the whole bogie to slide side to side.

It is this side to side sliding which gives the bogie the ability to follow the profile of a curve. Simple rotation of the bogie about its pivot will tend to throw the leading wheels out of the curve profile and the trailing wheels into the curve beyond the profile.

My tenders are all sprung with CSB's using High Level Models 2 mm axle blocks and axle guides. This does allow the tender to be used as adhesive weight bearing on the loco dragbeam, without disturbing the ride height of the tender. Again, the tender/loco coupling must be able to slide side to side, otherwise the tender or loco will simply derail. I leave very little sideplay on tender front and rear wheelsets and enough on the centre wheelset to negotiate the minimum curve on my layout which is 4' 0". Calculating the wheel sideways displacement on any given curve is quite easily done using the equation for a right angled triangle or a circle (same equation - Pythagoras). A similar calculation will identify the extent of the bogie sideways movement on curves by using the distance between the front drivers and the rear bogie wheels.

Don't know if this helps and I'll try and answer any questions which this may raise.

Cheers

Mike

[mikemeg]

One of the 'round tuits' which I leave lying around and which can accumulate alarmingly, is the fitting of sand pipes. I don't know why I leave these because they normally take very little time to fashion and fit. But I do.

So today, I decided to gather up the round tuits and actually do some; I do this 'catch up' day about once a fortnight so the round tuits don't accumulate out of control. First up on the round tuits, which have turned up today, is fitting the front and rear sand pipes to the J71; this as we are approaching the frosty season and there are still leaves on the line. The J71 would therefore be stranded, unable to augment or even apply its adhesive force by the diligent application of sand to the track. Now it is fully equipped for the autumn leaves and the winter's frosty rigours and can join the ranks of the 'all weather shunters'.

This was the test build of what is now a production kit. The loco - 68232 - was allocated to one of the Hull sheds in mid 1950.

The class was introduced, on the North Eastern, in 1886 and I believe the last withdrawals were in 1960 or 61, which would have made at least some of them seventy or more years old at withdrawal.

Cheers

Mike

[ArthurK]

One of the 'round tuits' which I leave lying around and which can accumulate alarmingly, is the fitting of sand pipes. I don't know why I leave these because they normally take very little time to fashion and fit. But I do.

So today, I decided to gather up the round tuits and actually do some; I do this 'catch up' day about once a fortnight so the round tuits don't accumulate out of control. First up on the round tuits, which have turned up today, is fitting the front and rear sand pipes to the J71; this as we are approaching the frosty season and there are still leaves on the line. The J71 would therefore be stranded, unable to augment or even apply its adhesive force by the diligent application of sand to the track. Now it is fully equipped for the autumn leaves and the winter's frosty rigours and can join the ranks of the 'all weather shunters'.

This was the test build of what is now a production kit. The loco - 68232 - was allocated to one of the Hull sheds in mid 1950.

The class was introduced, on the North Eastern, in 1886 and I believe the last withdrawals were in 1960 or 61, which would have made at least some of them seventy or more years old at withdrawal.

Cheers

Mike

Mike has told me that some of you have been having difficulties finding the source of my kits. I confess that they are not widely publicised but if you want to know more send me a message. The J71 is the latest addition to the list and will shortly be followed by the short bunker and long bunker versions of the J72. in the New Year it will be followed by the J25.
ArthurK

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J71

Hull Dairycoates shed (53A), ever eager to create a reputation for immaculately turned out locomotives, have bulled up one of their J71 shunting tanks especially for a posed photograph. So, in mid 1950, this is what passes for 'bulling up' a locomotive - the number and the totem being clearly visible.

This locomotive, as with all of my shunting tanks, is reasonably heavily weighted (7 - 8 oz) and uses the High Level Humpshunter gearbox with 108 : 1 gearing. This allows the loco to quite comfortably travel at a scale 1 - 2 mph (6 - 12 mm /second) and still maintain enough torque to pull or push thirty wagons.

I do like to hear the three link couplings, on each wagon, snap tight as they each extend when the loco draws them away. Reminds me of my childhood, listening to the wagons in Hull's New Inward Marshalling Yard being shunted, often late into the night. Long time ago and, of course, now the trains and the marshalling yard are all gone.

Still a few more locomotives, already built or in building, to cover in this thread - a second T1, a fourth A6,Tenant, B15, Q7, J24, more J72's etc.

This kit is now released - see Arthur's posting above - to be followed by the two versions of the J72 and the J25 early next year. The two J72 test builds are now awaiting painting, so I'll post some photographs of those ere long.

Cheers

Mike

[mikemeg]

Someone asked what I spray my locomotives with and how many coats do I apply. The answer is I don't; I brush paint them when I use weathered black. Only with the aerosol Halfords Satin Black do I spray them.

When painting with the weathered black, I do thin it to a very watery consistency, using HMG (the makers of the Railmatch paints) enamel thinners. I also, at least wherever possible, paint each part laid horizontal, to avoid curtaining. Boilers/smokeboxes/fireboxes are obvious exceptions to this laying horizontal technique!

The initial coat of weathered black is really the 'canvas' on which the various colours and textures of the weathering and highlighting are applied, though for a 'moderatory clean' loco Ileave the weathered black as is.

Cheers

Mike

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J72

Another test build, this one of the short bunker version of the North Eastern Class E1/LNER J72. This kit represents only the first twenty Class E1's/J72's built. Later locomotives - the remaining locomotives of the class - had longer bunkers and a different profile for their mainframes. A separate kit has been developed to represent the longer bunker version of this locomotive. Both kits should be available early next year.

This build has been finished as a vacuum fitted locomotive representing one of the station pilots at Newcastle Central.

Cheers

Mike

[mikemeg]

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER J73

Seen at Hessle Haven, passing a J39 and some of the other 68xxx and 69xxx locos on the railway, is this; an LNER J73 - 68361 of Hull Alexandra Dock. This was one of Arthur's earliest kits and, assuming that most of those sold have been built, then there are considerably more model J73's than the ten prototype members of the class, built by the old North Eastern.

The locos in the line are a J71, J77, 2 J72's, 2 A6's and a T1 and these are only a proportion of the tank locos on the railway. So a model of a North Eastern loco shed (and a fairly large one!) becomes an ever more pressing need.

This was one of my earlier builds though I was never fully satisfied with the running - my fault not a fault of the kit. So, after a major chassis overhaul and some slight adjustments, this now runs as it should. With a Mashima 1420, and the usual High Level Models Humpshunter gearbox - with 108 : 1 reduction - and weighing in at around 8 oz, this now really will pull or push prodigiously.

Remember those Sunday shed bashes, with line upon line of locomotives on their 'day off'?

Now going through the paint shop are two more J77's, an A6 and three G5's, with four more tank locos awaiting their turn and I haven't started on any A7's or A8's yet!

This photo was lit by the daylight lamp in wet, grey, winter's day mode - covered with a piece of smoky cellophane!! And it works because the wall behind is actually ivory cream, not light grey!

Cheers

Mike

[mikemeg]

So let's post a photo of a real J72; this one taken at Normanton. As always, the photo is courtesy Mick Nicholson.

Cheers

Mike

[John Bateson]

In an earlier post GC class 8H, LNER class S1 was mentioned
I have to confess that I was planning to build one of these and purchased a pile of drawings since they were a development of the GCR 8A/LNER Q4.
Then I looked at the drawings more carefully, shuddered and put them on the bottom of the pile of work I have.

But - they are really monsters! Plenty of space for weight and a big motor.
So who would build 50 loaded coal wagons to sit behind these - or has anybody got a hump-shunting layout which was what these were made for.
Initially for Wath, some went to March.

Over to you Mike ...

John