Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

davebradwell
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby davebradwell » Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:46 pm

Might the front spectacles be too low? I built an N10 from the Connoisseur kit and made up my own later type boiler. Setting handrails from the GA I found the long one on LHS wanted to go through the spectacle glass where it met the kit spectacle plate. Knackered it getting it out and had to etch a new one. They give the kit models a sad look. I don't have a GA end view but there is a vague outline in side view of the spectacle position but it's hardly definitive. Does anyone know better? Easily tackled during build if you know in advance. Footplate was too narrow, too, as there wasn't space for the fixing angles at the base of the sides and the GA confirmed this.
DaveB

Edward45
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Edward45 » Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:35 pm

Don't a great deal about this subject, however that dome looks somewhat anorexic. Was it the one supplied in the kit?

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:21 am

Edward45 wrote:Don't a great deal about this subject, however that dome looks somewhat anorexic. Was it the one supplied in the kit?


Agreed; and that dome has now been replaced with one which looks 'less anorexic'.

Cheers

Mike
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mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:30 am

LONDON ROAD MODELS NER CLASS B / LNER N8

Below are a couple of photographs of N8's; one superheated, one saturated, both photos taken late in the lives of these two locomotives. The three quarter view was the view I used to determine the position of the handrail relative to the tank top. This positioning on the model results in the handrail terminating, on the cab front spectacle plate, just below the cab front window. What is obvious from the side on photograph is that the cab side cut out, in the kit, is not deep enough, perhaps by 1.0 - 1.25 mm.

Also, the coupling rods on the model are too deep, perhaps by 0.5 mm. I had this issue on the George Norton G5's and finished up soldering lengths of 0.3 mm wire to the inside of the fluting webs, thus closing the fluted gap. This then allowed the rods to be reduced in width while still preserving the integrity of the fluting.

There do seem to be a few small dimensional errors on this kit, which given its age and the technology then available for drawing out the etches, is probably not surprising.

So I either accept these small dimensional errors or, effectively, scratch build a complete new locomotive superstructure. The lower of the two photographs - 69382 - is the prototype subject for my model based, as it was in mid 1950, at Hull Dairycoates.

Cheers

Mike
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davebradwell
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby davebradwell » Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:46 am

It's just that the spectacles on the prototype seem much closer to the cab roof - a bit more than the width of the angle below the angle. I suspect the kit designer thought they were in the same place as the small tender engines. You have me worried about the size/shape of the cab opening, though and it looks as if no allowance was made for the thickness of the beading. I'd already used one of my J27 chassis to avoid converting the kit one so didn't find the coupling rod issue. I made up a radial truck but it's awful and has an aversion to running along the top of the rails - springs too close together, I suspect.

DaveB

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:16 pm

NORTH EASTERN KITS LNER N10

This is my model of an N10, built from Arthur Kimber's kit. This model was the first test build of this kit so was built with no instructions and no guarantee that everything would fit; though everything did fit!

Just noticed that the model is missing a crankpin nut. Also noticed that the tank front handrail isn't quite straight! I'm also not too happy with the cab roof, which I think is a touch too narrow and too short, so does not overhang the cab sides, or front and rear, sufficiently. Must make another one!!

Don't you just love digital photography!!

Cheers

Mike
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Daddyman
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Daddyman » Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:23 pm

davebradwell wrote: You have me worried about the size/shape of the cab opening, though and it looks as if no allowance was made for the thickness of the beading.

I think it's just that kit manufacturers are worried about the fragility of that sliver of cab side above the aperture. Add a fold-over section to strengthen it and support the roof, as some do, and you still have the problem of making the fold.

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:44 pm

And a couple of photos of the real things, the first - 69104 - taken at Hull Dairycoates and the second - 69094 - taken at Springhead shed, Hull. Both pictures taken in 1952.

Cheers

Mike
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davebradwell
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby davebradwell » Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:16 pm

Suppose I'd better show you mine, then -

010717#5.jpg


One of Low Fell Yard's finest, it seems to have wandered north of the river, here.

Cab side opening height matches GA but spectacles still seem a bit on the low side. They look a bit small but were supposed to be a match for the preserved J21....unless something went wrong on the way. I remember one of those rare occasions when the Methfix was working well so the RA number went on. The electrification flash had me puzzled until someone pointed out it might have been for the upper yard on the quayside line which had what might be loosely called ole.

DaveB
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Daddyman
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Daddyman » Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:39 pm

davebradwell wrote:Suppose I'd better show you mine, then -

010717#5.jpg

One of Low Fell Yard's finest, it seems to have wandered north of the river, here.

Cab side opening height matches GA but spectacles still seem a bit on the low side. They look a bit small but were supposed to be a match for the preserved J21....unless something went wrong on the way. I remember one of those rare occasions when the Methfix was working well so the RA number went on. The electrification flash had me puzzled until someone pointed out it might have been for the upper yard on the quayside line which had what might be loosely called ole.

DaveB

Nice proper bulbous smokebox door!

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Will L
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Will L » Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:50 pm

davebradwell wrote:...The electrification flash had me puzzled until someone pointed out it might have been for the upper yard on the quayside line which had what might be loosely called ole...


There was a time, when electrification was the new coming thing, that BR was sticking those flashes on anything that moved, regardless of whether there was any realistic possibility of it actually passing beneath a live wire.

Edward45
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Edward45 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:02 am

On the question of front spectacle plate. I'm not sure whether it is relevant, but the N8s were modified with raised tanks. Does it follow, that initially a spectacle plate similar to the J21 etc was used, but the spectacles needed to be raised to clear the raised tanks. Much depends on the information the kit designer was working to.

Daddyman
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Daddyman » Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:41 am

Edward45 wrote:On the question of front spectacle plate. I'm not sure whether it is relevant, but the N8s were modified with raised tanks. Does it follow, that initially a spectacle plate similar to the J21 etc was used, but the spectacles needed to be raised to clear the raised tanks. Much depends on the information the kit designer was working to.

Good point, but I don't think so - the spectacles were positioned relative to the boiler.

Just realised the spectacles are too large on the Y7, so Connoisseur had "form". That means a bath in cellulose thinners and a new cab front. Fortunately I hadn't got any transfers on. I think that brings the grand total of parts used from the kit to 2.

davebradwell
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby davebradwell » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:23 am

I still feel that the tanks had the spectacles higher up than the tender engines but can only point to a few short lines maybe representing the edge of their frames in my side view only GA. If you know in advance it would be easy to fit the spectacle plate higher with new roof curve cut in. Think I might have used a different curve, again from GA.

As for smokebox door I had to make a new one as I wanted the later type - think I found the radius in the green books. Diameter from J21 survey as were details of the later boiler. Must say I've found the doors in the few kits I've built pretty grim with very poor attempts at a true curve. Brassmasters J94 went in the bin as it was little better than a disc with the corner rounded off. Even that in the Finney A3 and V2 kits isn't a great arc and the straps should taper in thickness. I don't have a radius turning attachment so I calculate points on the arc and machine these as a series of small steps before blending with a scraper used on a rest. Flat straps can be etched in a frame that locates in the centre but the Gresley tapered straps for the V3 were very difficult to fit in-line after being hewn from the solid.

There's a strange plate behind the front splasher which I found on many NER engines of this size - it's about the most plate you can use to hold up an oiler and I never worked out why it might be so.

All that effort and there's no shed plate. It's my version of the rule 1 being discussed elsewhere - do as you feel on the day.

Suspect you're right about the electrification flash, Will - Trafalgar Yard had wires since the year dot so there's unlikely to have been a pang of concern for those working there in 1960. They also started appearing on 21ton hoppers which seem unlikely to use this yard but I've made no attempt to find dates yet.

DaveB

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:28 am

On the subject of bulbous smokebox doors, here's a photo of a superheated N8 side on. The photo is obviously 1946 or later and shows, quite clearly, that some of these locos / smokeboxes had fairly flat smokebox doors.

This photo also shows, quite clearly, the extent of the cab roof overhang at the front and the rear. I don't know whether this overhang dimension was an NER standard or whether it differed by class.

Cheers

Mike
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davebradwell
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby davebradwell » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:40 am

Yes, Mike, that's the older style door shown on my GA and provided in the kit. It's the original type boiler with dome further forward and more boiler bands. All NER classes went through the same progression, I think, with some even reverting to older styles. The change of door was linked to a change to the smokebox sealing ring and the deeper curve could likely apply more pressure when tightened.

DaveB

Daddyman
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Daddyman » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:58 am

davebradwell wrote: Must say I've found the doors in the few kits I've built pretty grim with very poor attempts at a true curve.

Don't get me started! I suppose this 3D printing malarkey might be the way forward...

I was hoping to be able to make a resin copy of the later more bulbous door on the RTR G5 when it came out, and then use it on every ex-NER loco with the same size boiler, but it seems they've forgotten to tool up the later door.... Still, I suppose £200 just for a smokebox door was a bit much...

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:09 am

davebradwell wrote:Yes, Mike, that's the older style door shown on my GA and provided in the kit. It's the original type boiler with dome further forward and more boiler bands. All NER classes went through the same progression, I think, with some even reverting to older styles. The change of door was linked to a change to the smokebox sealing ring and the deeper curve could likely apply more pressure when tightened.

DaveB

Thanks Dave.That explains why the photo, posted above, of 69382 shows the loco still fitted with clack valves i.e. possibly reverting to an earlier boiler during its overhaul. Certainly the B16/1's frequently reverted from the later LNER designed boiler to the earlier NER boiler and some of them reverted from new to old and then back to new two or even three times during their lives.

Cheers

Mike
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davebradwell
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby davebradwell » Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:37 am

I'll add, out of fairness, that the whitemetal castings in the Connoisseur kit were very good and I used at least the chimney and dome. The safety valve trumpet went on my J72 which had to be renumbered as most of the BR builds had the more angular later version. Never looked at the smokebox door as I wanted the later type.

It seems likely, Mike, that smokebox was considered part of the boiler as there was a lot of rivets holding them together. When a loco went into works the boiler came off and the next one from the pool fitted to avoid long delays and so smokeboxes could be updated as part of a different cycle from loco overhaul and the type of boiler was in the luck of the draw.

One of the frustrations of modelling BR era is that any kit is likely to represent a prototype in original condition and there's always this string of changes to investigate with NER types but at least it was the same general progression for all.

DaveB

Edward45
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Edward45 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:30 pm

Turning again to the N8 spectacle plate, look at Railway Modeller July 1971 and the article by W.F.Glasspoole.

davebradwell
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby davebradwell » Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:52 pm

You'll have to enlighten me if I'm to follow your line of thought.

DaveB

Edward45
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Edward45 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:14 pm

Dave, this was a relatively short article on NER 0-6-2s with some drawings. You need to see the article to understand what I'm referring to. It is generally a fact that kits were often produced without reference to source documents. Once in print they themselves become the source of reference!
Whilst not of direct concern to this issue, the storey I was told was that the Wills kits originated from the Roche drawings. Not nice.

davebradwell
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby davebradwell » Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:55 pm

This is why I normally produce my own kits - I was fed up with duds in the early days where, just as the build seemed to be rolling, some great disaster would unfold and the thing abandoned. I know where my information came from and I'm usually up-front about it in the instructions these days. If not I'm happy to tell. I do these things solely because I want a model for myself and I can't see any point putting in all the work required to build a decent model without starting from some reliable drawings and visiting a surviving prototype. I had some kind of strop in MRJ about the situation as it was years ago. I'm still collecting drgs for projects that will never be made publicly available.

I think I remember the RM article now but unless he says where his information came from it's just no use. I'd never build from a 4mm drg anyway as it's just too small for any kind of accuracy and doesn't reveal any of the structural details which are at the heart of a convincing model, in my opinion anyway and I'm the judge of my own models. My cad system wants numbers and it's easier if they can be read off the drgs. Yes, even with a GA I have to scale the drg for some details so I try and get the next level of drawings to reduce this.

DaveB

Edward45
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Edward45 » Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:25 am

Some years ago I purchased a kit for a petite 0-6-0. As I hadn't been able to find a drawing I contacted the kit manufacturer and asked where they had obtained the details. The reply sent a shiver down my spine. Skinley! We have to appreciate that a many currently available kits, both cast and etched, originated half a century or more ago. Information just wasn't available then, the default position being Skinley, Roche or a magazine. At the time modellers were grateful for almost anything. Maybe we have moved on, but problems are likely to arise when detailing is added using information that is now available. In these circumstances you either build the kit or use the kit as a basis for a model.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:29 am

Edward sums this up well.

The quality and accuracy of recent kits are and should be better than what was designed and produced thirty, forty or fifty years ago, although some modellers are still happy with those.

Decent information has become more readily available over the years and is more accessible or visible through the internet. Of the eight pre-group loco kits I have designed, full GA's were available for five of them. Of the other three, two were earlier locos for which detailed dimensioned drawings existed and the third was a conversion/rebuild for which no GA was produced. However, full drawings of the major components were available.

Even GA's are something of a minefield as it can be difficult to read some of the detail, so period phots are very important. The further you go back however, the fewer photos exist and they aren't always of the best quality. Restored/preserved prototypes can't always be relied upon either, unless the alterations are very well understood and documented. Of the kits I designed, there are no preserved prototypes anyway.


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