Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

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Noel
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby Noel » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:19 pm

John Bateson wrote:So who would build 50 loaded coal wagons to sit behind these - or has anybody got a hump-shunting layout which was what these were made for.Initially for Wath, some went to March.


Or the Urie G16 4-8-0T for hump shunting at the LSWR Feltham Yard (just over 95 tons)...
Regards
Noel

Colin Parks

Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby Colin Parks » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:29 pm

Hello Mike,

What a very impressive line of locomotive power you have there. That must represent hundreds of hours of work!

Colin

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:35 am

Colin Parks wrote:Hello Mike,

What a very impressive line of locomotive power you have there. That must represent hundreds of hours of work!

Colin


Colin,

In all honesty I have far more locomotives than I need; the photo shows but a proportion of the loco fleet. The test builds obviously provide many of them, especially if some of the options are then explored, using multiple models i.e. building both saturated and superheated versions, the three slightly different G5's or the three variants of the J77. But also the part of the hobby, which I most enjoy, is building things. Operating a model railway is very much a secondary preoccupation for me and, at the moment, the railway primarily supports the testing of the locomotives and rolling stock.

As to the time yes, the photograph does represent some hundreds of hours of work. That said, I probably spend 25 - 30 hours/week at the workbench and that is a regular occurrence. So it becomes much easier to plan, schedule and project manage the builds (I often use Excel spreadsheets to record/plan builds). This year I will have built six locomotives and finished off another seven.

The multiple builds were initially an exercise in managing the psychology for completion to see what I needed to do to undertake batch builds; up to three similar locomotive models built simultaneously. Now I will often 'batch' other operations i.e. painting and lining the models. The key thing is to stick to the plan and not become distracted into other directions. That allows for variety while still working within an overall plan.

What probably helps, also, is having no real boredom threshold. If and when I do tire of the modelling (and, occasionally, I do) then painting/drawing and music assume much greater importance. And there is always the garden and the house to look after, as a counterpoint to all of this!

I know of other builders who are incredibly productive largely because they approach the task of building a completed model as the project. I know of other modellers who struggle to complete anything and constantly change their 'focal point', never really identifying or defining the overall, final objective. In making models, as in business, there are task oriented folk and objective oriented folk; this as a generalisation.

It's a broad church and, at the end of the day, it's a hobby!

Cheers

Mike
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mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:44 am

John Bateson wrote:In an earlier post GC class 8H, LNER class S1 was mentioned
I have to confess that I was planning to build one of these and purchased a pile of drawings since they were a development of the GCR 8A/LNER Q4.
Then I looked at the drawings more carefully, shuddered and put them on the bottom of the pile of work I have.

But - they are really monsters! Plenty of space for weight and a big motor.
So who would build 50 loaded coal wagons to sit behind these - or has anybody got a hump-shunting layout which was what these were made for.
Initially for Wath, some went to March.

Over to you Mike ... :twisted:

John


My only experience with these 'super shunters' is the LNER T1 4-8-0 tanks. These things did, occasionally, make forays onto the main line; in Hull they were recorded on a limestone working from Hessle Quarry to the cement works in Wilmington (Hull) - perhaps six to eight miles - along the main line.

I have built some sixty coal wagons, of various varieties; some full, some empty, so I could assemble a big train (had I the layout space) or more probably two medium sized trains. Again, I built batches of three, four or five similar wagons in making up the wagon fleet.

My excuse is that these big tank locos were, and are, just very impressive machines so why not model them. And they do look pretty impressive just travelling light engine.

Regards

Mike
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:29 am

mikemeg wrote:
As to the time yes, the photograph does represent some hundreds of hours of work. That said, I probably spend 25 - 30 hours/week at the workbench and that is a regular occurrence. So it becomes much easier to plan, schedule and project manage the builds (I often use Excel spreadsheets to record/plan builds). This year I will have built six locomotives and finished off another seven.


Wow :shock: just wow :!: :thumb
Tim Lee

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:59 am

Tim,

Thanks. I'm lucky that my eyesight and steadiness of hand remain good, despite advancing years. So while that remains, I'll build the locos. When those things deteriorate, then I'll do things less demanding and, perhaps, just run the trains!

Regards

Mike

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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:32 pm

This thread is now quite liberally 'sprinkled' with black and white photos of some of the North Eastern Railway's locomotives; some taken pre grouping, some taken during LNER days and many taken during the early years of British Railways. So here's another one taken in 1952 and showing one of the N8 0-6-2 tanks inside the main roundhouse building at Hull Dairycoates shed. Again this photo, as with all of the others, is courtesy Mick Nicholson. At this time - 1952 - Hull Dairycoates shed housed six separate turntables within a single building, though that building was actually built in several stages. A veritable cathedral, dedicated to the steam locomotive.

Worth noticing is that the legend British Railways is actually the large example, more normally found on the tenders of larger locomotives. Also worth noting is that this loco is superheated, identifiable by the Gresley snifting valve, just behind the chimney, the mechanical lubricator on the footplate and the longer smokebox, protruding forward of the front splashers. Hull Dairycoates had up to twenty of these locomotives until withdrawals started to reduce their numbers in the late 1940's and early 1950's when N10's were transferred in to replace these N8's. And, yes, a kit exists for the N8 and N9, so an N8 is on the list for 2019.

These old black and white photos are an enormous source of both inspiration and information and Mick has 'rescued' literally hundreds of them by acquiring them, digitally scanning them and then removing dirt, foxing, etc. from the electronic copy.

After all, these old photos are worth preserving for they can never be taken again!

Cheers

Mike
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby Le Corbusier » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:02 pm

Nothing to say really .... apart from how much I am enjoying this thread. ;)
Tim Lee

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:15 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:Nothing to say really .... apart from how much I am enjoying this thread. ;)


It is kind of you to say so. I'll do my best to keep it enjoyable with a mixture of the builds, some photos, a few discussions and the odd anecdote.

This website has far fewer members than 'the other place' so I've no idea as to what to expect in terms of views, contributions, etc. but I am immensely heartened by such comments and by the number of views that the thread has attracted in the three weeks since I started it.

So to one and all who read the thread - thank you!

Regards

Mike

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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:43 pm

I started this thread with a photo and brief description of the build of a B16/1, so here's a couple of photos of that class. The first is of North Eastern Class S3, later LNER B16/1 No 926, probably new. Many of the Class S3's - B16/1's - were actually built in 1923 and 24 by the LNER though to the original design.

The second photo is of a B16/1 towards the end of its days, looking decidedly weary and unkempt - 61443 - and this photo's in colour. And the attribution of the photos; well I guess you'll know by now.

I now have the parts and kit to build a second B16/1 so I might 'chronicle' that build in a little more detail, on here, if anyone is interested?

Cheers

Mike
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MarkS
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby MarkS » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:23 pm

I now have the parts and kit to build a second B16/1 so I might 'chronicle' that build in a little more detail, on here, if anyone is interested?



Yup. Please continue.

No matter the experience, something useful will be passed along.
It will probably be different for each of us, but it will useful...
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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RobM
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby RobM » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:28 pm

mikemeg wrote:
I now have the parts and kit to build a second B16/1 so I might 'chronicle' that build in a little more detail, on here, if anyone is interested?

Cheers

Mike


One of the perhaps silent many who follow this topic..........I'm interested........
Rob

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Lord Colnago
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby Lord Colnago » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:40 pm

Count me in Mike, always interested in blow by blow accounts, regardless of what's being built.
The second best priest

David Knight
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby David Knight » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:57 pm

mikemeg wrote:I now have the parts and kit to build a second B16/1 so I might 'chronicle' that build in a little more detail, on here, if anyone is interested?

Cheers

Mike


Yes please.

Cheers,

David

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:07 am

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER B16/1

Ok and many thanks to those contributors who replied. I will be re-starting the second B16/1 build in the New Year so I'll post a 'blow by blow'. Some building was started just to check the accuracy and fit of some of the new etches added by LRM to the kit.

So this one will be one of the last fifteen B16's built, with plain splashers and sporting the later LNER 49a boiler, though these locomotives often alternated between that later boiler and the original pattern boiler, such that some were withdrawn with original boilers, yet carried the later LNER boiler, earlier in their lives. The difference between the two boiler patterns was the relative length of the firebox and boiler (the overall length remained the same) and the location of the dome. Hope that makes sense.

It is worth mentioning that during a build I take literally dozens of photos using the digital camera. The camera I use is an old Olympus Camedia (I have other much more recent digital cameras) simply because it produces digital images of a manageable size - typically 400k - 600k; not the multi megabyte images of the later cameras. The reasons for all of this photography are :-

a) To act as a visual check on the model. The camera sees more and is far more critical than I am!
b) To remind me, later on, exactly what I have done. Lest I forget and I often do (father time's effects).
c) To stick up on websites, like this, to show the build - warts and all!
d) The photography area is permanently set up in the workshop, so it takes no time at all.
e) I like photography, setting them up, lighting them, etc!!

I'm not claiming any great skill in doing this loco building but one thing I do is 'I build them clean' i.e. a minimum of solder showing. Though I do get through quite a few refills for the glass fibre burnishing brush because I love to see the brass shine!!

Cheers

Mike
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Ian@Exton
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby Ian@Exton » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:42 pm

Mike,
Can I add to those saying "yes please" to your suggestion of a blow by blow account of loco building.

It is always interesting to learn from others, particularly when your models are so clean, and your output is impressive in terms of numbers. Have you an estimate of how many hours it takes you to build a loco?

Ian

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:01 pm

IANATEXTON wrote:Mike,
Can I add to those saying "yes please" to your suggestion of a blow by blow account of loco building.

It is always interesting to learn from others, particularly when your models are so clean, and your output is impressive in terms of numbers. Have you an estimate of how many hours it takes you to build a loco?

Ian


Ian,

Many thanks for the comments. As regards the cleanliness of the builds, there are some 'cardinal rules' which were passed on to me :-

a) Wherever possible, solder from the underside or inside. So on this B16/1 the valances are soldered from the back; the splashers soldered from their insides, etc.

b) Check the fit of every part, before soldering and adjust the fit where necessary and then .......

c) Wherever possible, avoid using solder to fill gaps; this by not leaving gaps to fill. Sounds silly but it's true.

d) Where solder is present on the outside, scrape it off and clean up as you go, rather than a big clean up at the completion of the model. The final clean up should be just to allow the primer to 'stick' to the brass.

e) I actually stick quite a lot of things with superglue or Araldite. White metal castings I do not try and solder. Anything which must be adjusted I do not solder i.e handrail knobs, Ross pop valves, whistles, because they are very difficult to adjust once soldered whereas they can be adjusted as the glue sets.They can even be removed and done again by heating and melting the glue.

f) My best tools are my fingers; though most of my fingers have lost virtually all 'sense of feel'; this through holding and handling pieces which got hot. They all look normal (no burns or callouses) and they seem to function reasonably well but I cannot tell hot from cold with them, though I can discern very hot 'blo-dy he-l, that's warm' as I swiftly let go.

As regards time to complete, the longest build was the B16/1 at around 200 hours, spread over about six months. This because I changed quite a lot and because this kit had not been built (as far as I know) in its 4mm version. There was also quite a lot of waiting time in that six months; mostly for castings but also for motor/gearbox, etc. I couldn't identify what would fit, until I had built something to measure to fit it into.

The A6 tanks each took around 70 - 80 hours to build and around 15 hours to paint, add markings, line and then weather. The 0-6-0 tanks are probably 40 - 50 hours to build and perhaps 5 - 10 hours to paint, add markings and weather.

My first efforts took quite a lot longer than that; the T1 was built over an eight month period though then I worked full time so was not able to devote the time which I now can. And, on the T1 I had to learn many techniques which were, then, completely new to me. Techniques which I now take for granted.

But then I'm still learning and will be until I am 'withdrawn'.

Cheers

Mike

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Ian@Exton
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby Ian@Exton » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:46 pm

Mike
Great - thanks for that - some useful tips.
I reckon that I must take rather longer than you, which is probably why my output is closer to one loco per year.
Then there is the time taken to get the bits of fibreglass brush out of one's fingers!
Ian

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:49 pm

IANATEXTON wrote:Mike
Great - thanks for that - some useful tips.
I reckon that I must take rather longer than you, which is probably why my output is closer to one loco per year.
Then there is the time taken to get the bits of fibreglass brush out of one's fingers!
Ian


You're very welcome.

I too have the problem with bits of fibreglass, so there is still some sense of feel left in the fingers!

Regards

Mike

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Noel
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby Noel » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:10 pm

mikemeg wrote: best tools are my fingers; though most of my fingers have lost virtually all 'sense of feel


I hope you have taken medical advice on the cause of this?
Regards
Noel

DougN
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby DougN » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:24 am

My suggestion rather than using the fibreglass brush (and removing the fibres from then ends of ones fingers) can I suggest the jewelers wire Bristle brushes. Other than having the steel wires breaking off and embeding themselves in your skin! this is what I use my Dremel for most of the time. Unless you really push into the brass, the brushes bearly scratch the brass surface. I have been using them since recommended by another member of our local Finescale model group here in Melbourne. I generally go through 1 or may be 2 per tank loco I have been building. As I tend to bulk purchase I do tend to change them more regularly as the fibres do break off and the brushes become less effective.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:35 am

DougN wrote:My suggestion .... the jeweler's wire Bristle brushes.


Would you have a photo of what you use? Internet search brought up a whole range of different options :?
Tim Lee

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:44 am

I'm going to have to amend the title of this thread, or create another thread, because I'm now looking, acquisitively, at photographs of locomotives from other LNER constituents which might, just might, have worked into Hull in the first years of British Railways.

I'm fairly sure that I read an old Railway Magazine (or one of the other railway monthy journals, around in 1950) report that this loco had been seen on a Hull - Doncaster train sometime in 1950. And that's all that is needed to add it, longer term, to the build program for Hessle Haven. Of all of the ex-Great Northern classes, perhaps with the exception of the Gresley A1's - though they became the A3's - this is the one which appeals most as a classic of british locomotve design in the early 1900's.

The photo is courtesy Mick Nicholson and is, in all probability, something of a rarity.

Cheers

Mike
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Colin Parks

Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby Colin Parks » Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:04 pm

Hello Mike,

Your average workbench time of 25-30 hours per week explains a lot. With such continuity of process and no distractions, it makes for greater efficiency. The spreadsheet approach sounds very organised. Like you, I have always taken process shots. After a year or two, I find it is useful to remind oneself of how particular techniques were applied.

When look at the Forum, I always look in on your thread, though as I have said before, my main interest has been scratch-building SR EMUs, so I have little knowledge to impart, but I am there in spirit!

The GNR atlantic would be a very nice project. A very handsome design.

All the best,

Colin

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:39 am

Colin Parks wrote:Hello Mike,

Your average workbench time of 25-30 hours per week explains a lot. With such continuity of process and no distractions, it makes for greater efficiency. The spreadsheet approach sounds very organised. Like you, I have always taken process shots. After a year or two, I find it is useful to remind oneself of how particular techniques were applied.

When look at the Forum, I always look in on your thread, though as I have said before, my main interest has been scratch-building SR EMUs, so I have little knowledge to impart, but I am there in spirit!

The GNR atlantic would be a very nice project. A very handsome design.

All the best,

Colin


Colin,

Once again,many thanks for the comments. Yes, I work at the bench most weekdays and try and put in 30 hours in the week. As you observe it does mean that things progress. I guess I am also reasonably well organised, which probably stems from the jobs I did when I worked full time, where organisation was paramount. The use of spreadsheets has been 'second nature' for many years and simply saves having to remember things. They also serve to show, very well, how far towards completion I am and how accurate my initial time estimates were. I normally update the spreadsheets at the weekend and there are only a few active at any time.

One other thing I try and do is plan in advance, sometimes months or even years in advance. So, on the C1 Atlantic, what are the likely issues when, eventually, I get around to doing this. Here I have, for each loco model, an 'aide memoire' sheet(s) on which I record the issues and their solutions. At the moment I have only issues on the C2 sheet :-

a) R-t-r conversion, kit built or scratch built. Who makes an r-t-r model or kit and how good are they? Here I will simpy collect information from any source who has built, or is building a C2. I think Bachmann do a model of this very locomotive so a conversion might well be the way to go!
b) What issues did they find and how did they solve them.
c) What issues can I foresee in P4 :-

i) Closeness of the driving wheels.
ii) No mainframe cutouts for the bogie wheels so bogie wheel swing?
iii) The slide bar arrangement v the footplate valance.
iv) The rear carrying axle arrangement.

Etc.

This sheet will be updated as and when but, when I get around to building this, I should have most of the answers.

Which organisation is it that uses the maxim - 'Fail to plan; plan to fail'?

Regards

Mike
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