Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

DougN
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby DougN » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:06 am

Good on you Mike! I just have a bit of get stuff done thing going on. Last year I aimed to have a item finished each month. Which I achieved. this was as small as a wagon and ended up being a full coach. This year my aim was to do "something substantial" each month. The time spent wasn't increased too much but when this included most of a Highlevel kits Neilson Mineral tank body. I think it counts. I am currently slowing down on my Finney V2 because I am working on the chassis. The more I look at it the more detail I add. I have finnally made it to the cylinders which if I am honest is a little perplexing as some castings are very similar, BR2 and BR1, the BR2 are for the rear and the BR1 are for the front. There is such a small difference between the castings. All I have spotted is the rear (BR2) are longer by about 1mm. I have them correct now so I can get on and fit them. :thumb
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:27 am

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER B16/1

Now for the one piece handrail, which travels form one side of the cab to the other via the boiler and smokebox. I've seen a few postings with different methods of forming this handrail, including producing it in two pieces meeting in the smokebox top handrail stanchion. My own preference is to produce this handrail in one piece and thread the smokebox top stanchion/lamp iron onto it, prior to fitting.

I should perhaps add that I fit and fix all of the handrail stanchions to the boiler and smokebox sides, before fitting the handrail, such that the finished handrail is simply slid into the already orientated and levelled handrail stanchions.

I produce the handrail, with all necessary radii, from a simple drawing and also check the distance across the fitted handrail stanchions on the boiler sides. This means that there is no correction or distortion made to the profile of the handrail, when it is slid into place.

The sequence of curves, to the wire, is :-

1) The large radius curve over the smokebox door.

2)The side curves in the same plane as 1) above, restoring the handrail sides to the horizontal. The vertical distance to the top of the large curve can then be checked against the drawing and adjusted as necessary. If this is wrong, then the handrail will slope upwards or downwards, in front of the furthermost forwards stanchion, on each side.

3) The curves which turn the handrail through 90 degrees. These must be formed so that both sides of the handrail are parallel, in both planes, after this operation. In making these curves work properly, the ends of curves 2), above, are then curved here as part of curves 3). It is curves 2) and 3), together, which produce that characteristic flowing, compound curve around the front of the smokebox and down the sides.

Each of these curves 1), 2) and 3) use formers which are some 1 - 2 mm diameter less that the required curve diameter as it is far easier to ease a curve out than to ease it in and also to account for the residual springiness of the brass wire, which prevents it from following the radius/diameter of the former. With this handrail, the formers were :-

Curve 1) 20 mm diameter.
Curve 2) 4 mm diameter.
Curve 3) 2.5 mm diameter.

The final stage is to stand the handrail on its front, checking that each side stands truly vertical and that they are parallel to each other, thus ensuring that the front curved section will be parallel to the smokebox front.

Just to put this in context, this handrail ( in the photo below) took about twenty minutes to from, adjust and check. This posting, which is really quite long to cover this process, took a lot longer to do.

The photograph shows the profiled handrail for the B16/1 before it is slid into place and fixed. The wire used here, as on all of these boiler handrails, is 0.4 mm brass wire, supplied in 300 mm lengths.

Cheers

Mike
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mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:36 am

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER B16/1

And then, voila; slid into place and the smokebox top handrail stanchion and lamp iron fixed into the top of the smokebox front. The other hole, above the front handrail stanchion, accepts the end of the vacuum pipe. I think the process on the one piece handrail was worth it. The ends of the handrail protrude around 1.5 mm into the cab, so are securely held by the cab front.

The handrail stanchions, on the B16/1, needed to be longer than the Gibson short handrail knobs and shorter than the Gibson medium handrail knobs, so I used the medium size and turned the shoulder off each one to allow it to sit around .5 mm further into the cladding. This turning was simply done in an old pin chuck, twisted by hand, and which is used only for these kind of turning operations.

Both models are still a number of unfixed sub-assemblies and will remain so until all of the detailing is completed. As said earlier, I have held off the final assembly and painting of the first build in order to check back, cross check, etc. the same assemblies on the second build.

Lastly, on this posting, I do like taking the photos from a low down angle i.e. with the camera somewhere around footplate level. Somehow, even in 4 mm scale, it seems to convey the massiveness of these things. So I took a similar photo of t'other one; the first build. It is quite noticeable how the moving of the dome, 2' 8" backwards, on the 49a boiler (the later LNER designed boiler), on the first photo, does change the appearance of the locomotive; appearing to produce a more modern and balanced outline.

As with most steam locomotives, they were lovely things; perhaps the nearest thing mankind has made to a living, breathing machine!

Cheers

Mike
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Rdunning
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Rdunning » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:26 am

Lovely stuff Mike. I've been following your thread for a while now and admiring your approach and the end results. These simple but rugged engines have great appeal, even though the North Eastern isn't my favoured prototype. I particularly like the 4-8-0T you featured earlier.

Keep 'em coming!

Richard

IANATEXTON
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby IANATEXTON » Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:54 am

Mike

Thanks for showing us your technique for forming the continuous handrail - Great Western locos also have a single handrail. I agree that a single length of wire is preferable, but have on occasion resorted to splitting the rail at the central knob.

It is very useful to see the diameters of the formers that you used. I find that the trickiest problem is forming curve 3 - where to start it so that the distance between the two long arms is the same as that between the first handrail knobs on either side of the smokebox.

I'm another who has been following this thread, so keep posting, please.

Regards
Ian

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:13 pm

IANATEXTON wrote:Mike

Thanks for showing us your technique for forming the continuous handrail - Great Western locos also have a single handrail. I agree that a single length of wire is preferable, but have on occasion resorted to splitting the rail at the central knob.

It is very useful to see the diameters of the formers that you used. I find that the trickiest problem is forming curve 3 - where to start it so that the distance between the two long arms is the same as that between the first handrail knobs on either side of the smokebox.

I'm another who has been following this thread, so keep posting, please.

Regards
Ian


Ian,

Firstly many thanks for the kind words and, rest assured, I'll keep on posting.

In reply to your question, above, where to start curve 3. I make a simple drawing with two parallel lines showing the locations of the two sides of the handrail, when mounted In their stanchions. I then draw in the profile of the front two curves, which I've called curves 1) (the large radius around the smokebox top) and curve 2 (the smaller front radius which restores each side of the handrail to horizontal) onto the same drawing so that I have a drawing showing all of the dimensions and all of the curve radii. The drawing takes no more than five minutes to produce.

I then pin this drawing to a cork board on which I then form the handrail. Using the cork board (which is 1/2" thick) I can pin the handrail to the drawing while it is being profiled. This facilitates establishing the start point for curves 3, either side, and therefore the distances of the long arms. And yes, I struggled with a few of these handrails before hitting on this very simple approach!!

Cue a reprise of that 4-8-0 tank featured earlier. This was my first build (scratch) when I came back to this hobby after a thirty odd year lay off, done about twelve/thirteen years ago and was my first 'foray' into P4. This is far too heavy (16 oz) but has a Mashima 1630 with a flywheel and 60 : 1 gearing so it pulls, or pushes, pretty well!!

It was on this that I first started 'experimenting' with these one piece handrails! I even scratch made the three link couplings on this one, being ignorant of these being available from the trade.

Cheers

Mike
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Nov 27, 2019 5:35 pm

Thanks from another of your regulars Mike!

Really useful advice especially regarding the boiler handrail. But, minor question, how do you make a lamp iron/handrail stanchion?

Regarding the 16oz 4-8-0, what is the downside of such an amount of weight?

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:11 am

Julian Roberts wrote:Thanks from another of your regulars Mike!

Really useful advice especially regarding the boiler handrail. But, minor question, how do you make a lamp iron/handrail stanchion?

Regarding the 16oz 4-8-0, what is the downside of such an amount of weight?


Julian,

Firstly, many thanks for the postings. It is always gratifying to know that there are regular readers of the thread(s) and I will do my very best to continue to make the threads entertaining, informative, illustrative and, quite possibly, occasionally frustrating!!

I did wonder if anyone would ask about the smokebox top lamp iron. Anyway, this is how I do it :-

Arthur, of North Eastern kits, produces an etched front lamp iron which has a tiny square section at its base, around 1 mm square. Two of these are included in every kit, so there is always one spare, which I assiduously keep for later! This square section has a hole etched I it; perhaps 0.3 - 0.4 mm diameter. This square section is designed to be fixed, via this hole, to the top of the smokebox. The tiny square projecting piece - later referred to as the ledge - again part of the etching, is then slid, via an etched slot, onto the lamp iron.

I open the hole in this tiny square piece, which is integral to the actual lamp iron, to around 0.7 - 0.8 mm and then take a Gibson short handrail knob and turn the stem (the part which sits into the cladding) down to this same diameter 0.7 - 0.8 mm such that the stem of the handrail knob will pass through the square section of the lamp iron. A piece of 0.4 mm wire is then passed through the handrail knob to orientate it before the square part of the lamp iron is glued to the stem of the handrail knob. Thus I now have a single part which is both handrail stanchion and lamp iron, as per the prototype. This is threaded onto the one piece handrail, ensuring that it is threaded on the correct way round, with the handrail knob stem facing towards the smokebox and the lamp iron facing upwards. As the one piece handrail is slid into place, the top lamp iron/handrail stanchion is positioned over its fixing hole and finally held in place when the handrail is fully positioned. The tiny square 'ledge' piece on the top lamp iron can then be positioned and fixed.

This may sound tricky and it is fiddling but I've now done this many times so it has become far easier to do. I would add that I normally do this under a magnifying glass, though on these B16/1's it was done without the aid of any magnification; I couldn't find the magnifying glass!! The glass has since turned up, thankfully!!

As for the T1 4-8-0 tank and its mass? Well, on a test track, a few years ago, this thing hauled seventy six wagons, which was all we could muster. Most of these wagons were not mine; they had been brought to the Model Railway Club by another member. Half way through the test, with the T1 happily heaving this lot around the test track, at a very respectable lick, the train split into two as one of the wagons in the front of the train parted company with its coupling and buffer beam.

Realistically there is absolutely no downside to its weight and it has performed almost without fault - apart from needing wheels and pick ups cleaning, periodically - since it was built. After all, it rarely travels more than the length of the longest siding on the layout! And with that weight any track inaccuracies are just 'rolled out'!

Of course, the purists tell me that the motion and bearings will wear out prematurely. Well they haven't, yet!! Testament to the lubricating qualities of very good quality Olive Oil!!

Cheers

Mike
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Le Corbusier
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:52 am

Another regular reader here :thumb No comments or questions at the moment .... just enjoying reading and learning :D
Tim Lee

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:21 am

Le Corbusier wrote:Another regular reader here :thumb No comments or questions at the moment .... just enjoying reading and learning :D


Thank you.

Comments like this really do make the time and effort, to do the postings, well worth it.

Regards

MIke

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:33 pm

LONDON ROAD MODELS LNER B16/1

This post does relate to a tiny detail, so, no, I am not trying to establish a record for minutiae in a single posting!

When first I built these locomotives I used brass castings for the smokebox door handles. These castings occasioned a few comments ranging from 'that is rather overscale' to 'that looks bl--dy awful'. And, of course, those comments were correct; the handles were too thick!

Anyway, a very fine modeller - David Addyman - put up a posting, on another modelling website, detailing his method of making these smokebox door handles, so I've adopted that. The spindle is a piece of 0.8 mm brass rod, which is carefully pop marked and then drilled with two holes 0.4 mm diameter and around .5 mm apart. These two holes are drilled with an opposition of around 30 degrees to each other. A piece of 0.4 mm wire is then soldered into each hole, after which the whole thing is cleaned up and the handles cut back to 4 mm. The resulting handles do look far more prototypically correct. Doesn't half make a difference to the model(s)!!

I should add that this was also done without the aid of the magnifying glass which was sorely needed; very sorely needed.

I shall demur from the next posting describing the addition of an individual rivet and wait until there is something far more substantial to report; perhaps the addition of the whistle!!

Cheers

Mike
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John Bateson
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby John Bateson » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:34 pm

Mike,
With regard to glass fibre brushes, how do you avoid getting the bristle splinters in your fingers? Whenever I use one, I'm afflicted with painful slinters for days after, even though I try to sweep them off the work tray straight away.
Dave.


Surgical Gloves - usually around £2.00 for 100 - also useful for holding stuff you are spraying and can't be bothered about proper screening.

Don't sweep the bristle segments, that is the way they get airborne and everywhere. Use something like a wet wipe over the whole area - preferably an anti-bacterial one.

Do the bristle cleaning on top of an absorbent kitchen wipe - then carefully roll it up and dispose of it - regularly! The kitchen roll that is, not the model.

John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...
Avoiding the soaps ...
http://www.greatcentralmodels.co.uk

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:52 pm

a method with scratch brushes I have been using recently is a roll of duct tape. I work within a localised area, and once complete use the tape to lift all the fibres from the work surface and deposit in a bag kept for the purpose .... I also use the tape on my hands to remove any stray bits before they get into the skin .... appears to work :thumb
Tim Lee

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PeteT
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby PeteT » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:56 pm

mikemeg wrote:Comments like this really do make the time and effort, to do the postings, well worth it.

Regards
MIke


Another '+1' from a regular reader here. Very interesting, both from the prototypes covered & the skills and techniques explained - so thanks for taking the time.

I know we've been around the discussion of 'likes' and the like several times before, but I agree it can seem pointless if the only thing to go on is seeing the view count rise, but without comments. Does it mean people have looked & like, or looked & closed the window half way through...

I know some people who have the opinion that 'the type of person who posts' will continue to do so regardless of feedback - but for me it does eat into modelling/hobby time. I do it as I find other peoples threads useful, and rather than just sponge (with the occasional pointed question) I prefer to try & give something back (whether to those who have helped me, or passing on to others being in my mind reasonably irrelevant).

PhilipT
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby PhilipT » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:19 pm

quote / Don't sweep the bristle segments, that is the way they get airborne and everywhere / unquote

I'll second that. 55 years ago a high temperature device exploded next to me - the burns were minor but fibreglass insulation which got into my eyes put scratches in each cornea. Thankfully, the successful treatment meant that there was no permanent damage to my eyesight so, to repeat, don't sweep it up and definitely don't try to blow it away.

Philip Hall
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:59 pm

The best way to avoid these awful fibres is not to use a fibreglass brush. The pencil kind are the worst, and I found they can fly, as Phil has just said. I largely gave up on them years ago in favour of a Garriflex block. Or a EM Society/DOGA track rubber. They clean the metal just as well and only leave a rubbery powder. OK they are not quite so good for cleaning off solder, but I try not to have any excess solder to clean off...

Philip

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:28 am

On this subject of glass fibre filaments getting into finger joints, which was first raised on a posting a few weeks ago, I somewhat facetiously replied that I don't have a problem with them. In truth, I don't. If they do get into the finger joints, which I am sure they must, then I'm not aware of them so I don't take any avoiding or remedial action other than the normal hand washing.

That said, as posted above, I am very careful about sweeping these fibres up and I do go to some lengths to avoid breathing them in as I have a condition - asthma - which would be seriously aggravated by doing so. Mind you, I'm not sure what effect the dilute phosphoric acid has - used as soldering flux - on that condition!! And let's not get into the fumes from Methyl Ethyl Ketone or Cyanoacrylates!!

If I worried about all of this, or any of it, at the age of seventy two, I'd never build anything again!!

Cheers

Mike

Clive Impey
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Clive Impey » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:07 am

Mike,

To stop phosphoric acid fumes going into my face I use a cooling fan from an old computer placed about a foot from the work. This creates a more than adequate airflow.

Clive.

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John Bateson
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby John Bateson » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:52 pm

Cooling fan to get rid of fumes when soldering - good
Brush or wet wipe when cleaning glass fibre bristles - good

But PLEASE - not both at the same time!

John

and now, back to the honourable and venerable Mr Megginson and his LNER journey.
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...
Avoiding the soaps ...
http://www.greatcentralmodels.co.uk

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:41 pm

John Bateson wrote:Cooling fan to get rid of fumes when soldering - good
Brush or wet wipe when cleaning glass fibre bristles - good

But PLEASE - not both at the same time!

John

and now, back to the honourable and venerable Mr Megginson and his LNER journey.


John,

I'm not sure that I've ever been referenced as either honourable or venerable before but, in both references, many thanks. My only ever encounter with venerable, the word, was in reference to Bede, who I believe was a Benedictine Monk and early (7th/8th century AD?) Saxon, or perhaps Angle, chronicler and was a Saint, which I am most certainly not!!

PS I'm struggling to find a photo for this posting, as 7th/8th century cameras were not compatible with jpg!!

Regards

MIke

IANATEXTON
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby IANATEXTON » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:52 pm

Well Google seems to have a range of images for the Venerable Bede.

This one from St Benet's Church, Kentish Town.

Ian
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mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:37 am

Ian,

Many thanks for the image of the Venerable Bede. No-one can dispute the fact that this thread becomes more and more eclectic as time progresses.

Cheers

Mike

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:29 am

Every now and again a photo turns up which is quite simply iconic in showing what the age of steam was all about. Usually these photos are sent to me by my long time old friend Mick Nicholson after Mick has worked his magic on digitally refreshing and enhancing them, and this one is another of Mick's acquisitions.

So, a sunny (probably summer's) day at York with the shadows, the sunlight and the great trainshed roof of York Station, framing the picture. A Peppercorn A1 Pacific - 60139 Sea Eagle - 'sizzles' with that characteristic sound of double chimney locomotives; smoke and steam gently wafting on the breeze. You can almost smell that aromatic cocktail of smoke, steam and oil and feel the heat emanating from the locomotive as it awaits its 'right away' southbound.

Coincidentally, this was the first Peppercorn A1 that I ever saw, on a late summer's day in 1958, at York.

Cheers

Mike
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DougN
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby DougN » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:08 pm

That photo looks great. It is very evocative of the era. Also one of my favourite locos!

I find York and the surrounding area very interesting from the railway infrastructure and the cross roads if became from every direction. It is the one area that is my main interest. :D
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:48 am

DougN wrote:That photo looks great. It is very evocative of the era. Also one of my favourite locos!

I find York and the surrounding area very interesting from the railway infrastructure and the cross roads if became from every direction. It is the one area that is my main interest. :D


York was quite a place from a railway standpoint, even in the late 1950's. With locos from the LNER, the North Eastern, Great Northern, Great Central, LMS, Midland and the BR Standards working into or through the town.

One can only imagine what this place was like in pre-grouping days or the pre-war, post grouping days.

So here's another view, again courtesy Mick Nicholson, taken at York (Holgate) and in colour, in the very early days of British Railways - 1949. Just look at the array of ex-North Eastern lower quadrants. And another lovely 'portrait' of a Peppercorn A1 though with the original rimless chimney and unnamed. Doesn't this photo just 'tell it like it was' though, at this time, the railways were still in a parlous state after the privations of the war.

Cheers

Mike
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