Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:26 pm

Horsetan wrote:I wonder if the Bradwell chassis would work under the later Hornby body?


I don't know but it could probably be made to. Dave Bradwell produced this kit long before the Hornby body was produced so this particular version of the kit makes no provision for that but if it is only the fixing points - body to chassis - then it might be capable of adaptation. Dave might have modified the actual kit to fit the Hornby body since I bought these. E-mail him and ask the question!

The Bachmann bodies, themselves, do need some surgery (which is detailed in the instructions) in order for the chassis to engage correctly with the underside of the footplate.

I'll photograph the top of the chassis', when the builds are a little further advanced, so that you can form a view as to how suitable it might be.

Cheers

Mike

Crepello
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby Crepello » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:49 pm

Horsetan wrote:I wonder if the Bradwell chassis would work under the later Hornby body?

Dave was of the opinion, when he mentioned it to me, that the Hornby B1 was not quite right - he thought the running board drop ahead of the cylinders was over-scale. I've kept my eyes open for a cheap spare body to check this out for myself, without luck so far.

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:22 pm

Bachmann B1 Conversion

With the addition of the second mainframe overlay, then the basic chassis for build #1 now just needs a few additional points of soldering doing. Tomorrow, the second chassis will be started and brought to this point.

The fit between the front right angles of the new frames and the moulded section, on the underside of the body, is snug to say the least. Testament to the design of the kit!! Helluva depth, those mainframes!

Now for a 'duel on the green baize'!!

Cheers

Mike
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P3170019.JPG

Dave Holt
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Dave Holt » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:27 am

Mike,
Looking good so far. Brave to do two in tandem.
I've also got one of these to do, so I shall watch your progress with great interest.
Dave.

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:09 am

Bachmann B1 Conversion

Dave Holt wrote:Mike,
Looking good so far. Brave to do two in tandem.
I've also got one of these to do, so I shall watch your progress with great interest.
Dave.


Or foolish - doing two in tandem.

I've done multiples before in tandem, even in triplicate - 2 x J77, 3 x G5 so I'm ok with the psychology of doing this. I have had the odd e-mail broadly asking 'How do you do this (multiples concurrently) when I can't even finsh one!' and the usual answer is :-

'The trick, if trick it be, is to set a number of intermediate points at which both models will reach exactly the same stage - perhaps the end of each week - otherwise the inevitable temptation to finish one before the other will take over and the second will then become a real chore and may even be consigned to the 'if ever, sometime, never' drawer.'

I did wonder whether doing a 'blow by blow' of the build(s) was of any interest but, Dave, you've answered that query - many thanks.

So far it's the 'heavy engineering' which has been done so no real problems. But when I get to the really fiddly bits, and there are a few, then the management of the two in tandem will become more critical. I've made a tray 18" by 12", with sides 2" high (to try and prevent small etches from diving off the bench and seeking cover in the carpet) and covered in black felt, just so I can see to do the tiny bits. I should have made this ages ago, it is such a boon to seeing and to not losing those really tiny etches.

Anyway, I now have two at exactly the same stage and both chassis fit the bodies absolutely spot on. So onwards, ever onwards!

Cheers

Mike
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Will L
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Will L » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:18 pm

mikemeg wrote:I did wonder whether doing a 'blow by blow' of the build(s) was of any interest but, Dave, you've answered that query - many thanks.


Fear not, Dave will not be the only one to watch with interest. I for one will be disappointed if you don't. See the Digital Highlights column in the next snooze.

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:03 pm

Will L wrote:
mikemeg wrote:I did wonder whether doing a 'blow by blow' of the build(s) was of any interest but, Dave, you've answered that query - many thanks.


Fear not, Dave will not be the only one to watch with interest. I for one will be disappointed if you don't. See the Digital Highlights column in the next snooze.


Many thanks for that. More than enough encouragement to carry on with the 'blow by blow'. In the instructions, David Bradwell emphasises that this will not be built quickly. His exact phrase is 'It will take as long as it takes'. Well almost immediately the truth of that statement is realised with adding the firebox and the bogie side bearer.

The firebox, visible through the cut outs in the rear of the mainframes, actually stands slightly back from the mainframes as per the prototype but it takes a little while to fold up and fit these firebox sides. Similarly, the bogie side bearer, built up from three layers of nickel silver, must be carefully shamfered on three sides before fitting. The two photographs show the arrangements. This is the first test of the tandem psychology for it would be easy to move on rather than do the bearer on the other chassis. But no, the other one will now be done!!

That etched part number, on the mainframe, will be covered by the cylinder - honest guv!!

Cheers

Mike
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Mark Tatlow » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:56 pm

Just to say Mike I too am following this thread with interest. Most of your NER stuff is a bit big for my passions, but I do have a Bachie B1 in the *for a rainy day box" (albeit with a Comet chassis).............

Thus, could I ask that you also comment on the detailing of the body aspects, as that will have a cross over to my build and I am no aficionado of LNER standard locos!

PS - when I say "for a rainy day box" I actually mean one of the many such boxes.........
Mark Tatlow

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:16 pm

Bachmann B1 Conversion

In answer to Mark's request, above, yes I will cover the detailing of the body, though might not be for a week or three. Anyway, the second bogie side bearer has been done, so at the end of day two of the build(s), both build #1 and #2 are at exactly the same stage.

So that's it for today! Having been successful (perhaps lucky!) on the green baize, last night, then I now have another round (it is a knockout) to play.

Cheers

Mike
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mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:07 am

Bachmann B1 Conversion

I am following the instructions, on this kit, to the letter. So the next process leads into one of the more fiddly jobs - fitting the brake hangar brackets to the mainframes. The etchings of these brackets are very small and easily lost so I would advise doing the necessary drilling while these etches are still attached to the fret. It is here that the experience with Arthur's test builds begins to come into play though here, I have a full set of instructions!!

Once drilled - in this case 0.6 mm - then the bracket can be parted from the fret and folded to profile. Again try to avoid the part spitting out from the pliars or tweezers, during the folding, for sods law says it'll travel far and you won't find it.

I would also advise doing each one individually, including the soldering, before moving onto the next. The folded bracket is located using 0.6 mm rod/wire as shown in the photograph and I would advise leaving the rod in place while the joint is checked for integrity and while the joint is cleaned up with a needle file or fibre brush. Only withdraw the 0.6 mm rod once you are certain that the bracket is securely (and vertically) fixed.

There really is no short cut to doing this so take whatever time it takes!!

Clearly, when doing the brackets on the other mainframe, the chassis will need to be supported and spaced to avoid damaging the brackets already fixed.

Looking through other topic areas and other threads it seems that I post more photographs than most, so I hope I am not over endowing the thread with pictures?

Cheers

Mike
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Last edited by mikemeg on Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:18 am

Bachmann B1 Conversion

At this point I feel a prototype photo 'coming on', so it might be timely to show another of those rescued and treasured black and white photographs. I'm afraid there are many more photos where this one came from!!

This one, again courtesy my old mate Mick Nicholson, was taken in April 1948 and shows Mexborough's B1 - 1165 - in Hull Botanic Gardens shed yard, still carrying its LNER livery and markings. The strange device hanging off the rear of the bogie is a lighting generator, which was trialled on some of the B1's though, I believe, not then generally fitted.

Cheers

Mike
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B1 at Botanic.jpg

DougN
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby DougN » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:54 am

Mike your inspiring me to improve my B1 which I built a Bradwell chassis for 10+ years ago... it has surfaced from the box it was hiding in and it makes me look at it and think I can do some improvements. :thumb
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Horsetan
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Re: Some North Eastern Locomotive Builds

Postby Horsetan » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:34 am

Crepello wrote:
Horsetan wrote:I wonder if the Bradwell chassis would work under the later Hornby body?

Dave was of the opinion, when he mentioned it to me, that the Hornby B1 was not quite right - he thought the running board drop ahead of the cylinders was over-scale. I've kept my eyes open for a cheap spare body to check this out for myself, without luck so far.


That's interesting. I picked up a cheap one shortly after Hornby released it, because the retailer was flogging unsold stock. Cost £65 at the time. Looked alright, and the mouldings are noticeably more delicate than the earlier Bachmann, but I haven't taken measurements against the Isinglass drawing.

I've never seen a Hornby B1 come up for spares, not even from the eBay RTR dismantler who used to offer some very broken Hornby-China engines.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:55 pm

Bachmann B1 Conversion

With the fitting of the brake hangar brackets to chassis build #2, then both builds are still at exactly the same stage. Great temptation to leave the fitting of the six hangar brackets, on #2, till later but resisted. it is the jobs that are six off which become tedious at twelve off i.e. six brakes x 2!!

One thing I always do, which others may not, is to clean up all soldered joints as soon as they are made, rather than at some later stage. Call it personal preference or just a foible but I find it easier! Certainly allows the photographs to be taken 'en route' without having to take account and apologise for extraneous solder all over the place!

Cheers

Mike
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Dave Holt
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Dave Holt » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:46 pm

Mike,
Looking very neat, especially as you clean off excess solder as you go - something I'm a bit lax at sometimes, perhaps. Clearly a good discipline to adopt.
Regarding the delicate nature of the brake hanger brackets, I notice that in his instruction update sheet, Dave recommends leaving these till after the horn-guides have been fitted, to avoid possible damage. A bit too late to point this out now, isn't it?
Dave.

CornCrake
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby CornCrake » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:03 pm

Please do not stop the "endowment" process!
I for one am really enjoying your postings.
Steve

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:04 pm

Dave Holt wrote:Mike,
Looking very neat, especially as you clean off excess solder as you go - something I'm a bit lax at sometimes, perhaps. Clearly a good discipline to adopt.
Regarding the delicate nature of the brake hanger brackets, I notice that in his instruction update sheet, Dave recommends leaving these till after the horn-guides have been fitted, to avoid possible damage. A bit too late to point this out now, isn't it?
Dave.


Dave,

Many thanks.

The discipline of cleaning as I go was really necessitated by the taking of the photographs. The digital camera is very 'unkind' to any solder left in plain view! It's the first thing the viewer sees; sometimes the only thing the viewer sees!

I did make a kind of cradle to support the chassis while the brake hangar brackets were fitted to the second mainframe so I might have to use that again, when doing the horn guides. I read the update sheet after I'd soldered up the hangar brackets, how daft, especially as I read the instructions themselves a few times! I also have four cradles, just made from .060" plasticard, which I use to support the loco bodies after fitting the footplate steps; saves them folding or deforming, once the body is weighted.

Cheers

Mike
Last edited by mikemeg on Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:35 pm

CornCrake wrote:Please do not stop the "endowment" process!
I for one am really enjoying your postings.
Steve


Steve,

Thanks for the kind words and ok, I'll keep the photos - model and prototype - coming. Cue for another one, once again courtesy of Mick Nicholson and taken in Hull Dairycoates shed in 1964. And this one was that relatively rare thing for B1's, a 'namer'!!

It's a strange thing, this fascination we have with steam locomotives. A few years ago I was at the Autumn Gala on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway, stood on the platform at Grosmont, with hundreds of other folk. In front of me were a couple around forty years old. He had his digital SLR camera poised at the ready, she was looking around her, seemingly bored to tears as she waited to board their train. As we stood there, a chime whistle sounded and heralded the arrival of 60007 - Sir Nigel Gresley - backing out of the tunnel and into the station. The sound of the whistle caused the lady of the couple to look around at the source of the noise, at which point she simply exclaimed, as she saw the source of the noise :-

'My God, that's just beautiful'.

For so it is!

Cheers

Mike
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B1 61032 Stembok. Dairycoates, 24   July 1964..jpg

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:17 pm

Bachmann B1 Conversion

After assembling all twelve brakes, for the two chassis, then the instructions now move to the assembly of the cylinders. Despite the number of etched kits, which I've built, the assembly of cylinders with the piston valves located on top, as on the B1 and most locomotives with outside Walschaerts gear, is new to me, as is the assembly of Walschaerts valve gear iteslf. So these next operations will be done very carefully and proven on the one build before I repeat them on the second. I'm trying to avoid messing up (I did consider another phrase here!) in tandem!!

This kit, is engineered to allow it to be bult to 'OO', EM or P4 gauge so with every part which crosses the mainframes, then the 'OO' mainframe spacing is the default for the part. For EM or P4, with their wider mainframe spacing, then additional clearance must be made to allow those parts to span wider spaced mainframes. This is the case with the two cylinder formers, front and rear, where sections must be cut out to provide for the wider spacing.

Additionally, the two formers must be aligned to give the correct slope on the cylinders, in this case around 1 in 50. There are witness marks on the outside of the mainframes to allow this slope to be adjusted and checked. I've seen many a kit really spoilt by cylinders with the wrong inclination, some even sloping the wrong way, so it is well worth concentrating on getting this inclination absolutely right.

So here the two formers are sat in and on the mainframes and checked for that inclination. I will pass a piece of 1.25 mm rod through the cylinder to ensure that it crosses the appropriate mark on the mainframe which then indicates that the cylinder inclination is correct.

Cheers

Mike
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Dave Holt
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Dave Holt » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:17 pm

Mike,
Getting to the more interesting bits, now.
I wouldn't concern yourself unduly over the outside valve gear. Dave looks to have put a lot of thought into the design of the etched parts and I'm sure it will all go together very well with a bit care and by being methodical. Use of cigarette paper/smears of oil will help prevent accidentally soldering the valve gear joints up solid.
As a matter of interest. Are you removing the etched cusp from all the parts before assembly? I must admit, this is something I rarely do unless the instructions specify it or it's a visible edge, where appearance would be affected. The PenBits Class 40 chassis I've put on the diesel section was great for me, no cusp removal required except to enable tabs to fit in slots.
Dave.

Crepello
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Crepello » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:22 pm

mikemeg wrote:Bachmann B1 Conversion

Additionally, the two formers must be aligned to give the correct slope on the cylinders, in this case around 1 in 50. There are witness marks on the outside of the mainframes to allow this slope to be adjusted and checked.

This sort of thing makes you think the kit designer is on your side!

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:35 am

Dave Holt wrote:Mike,
Getting to the more interesting bits, now.
I wouldn't concern yourself unduly over the outside valve gear. Dave looks to have put a lot of thought into the design of the etched parts and I'm sure it will all go together very well with a bit care and by being methodical. Use of cigarette paper/smears of oil will help prevent accidentally soldering the valve gear joints up solid.
As a matter of interest. Are you removing the etched cusp from all the parts before assembly? I must admit, this is something I rarely do unless the instructions specify it or it's a visible edge, where appearance would be affected. The PenBits Class 40 chassis I've put on the diesel section was great for me, no cusp removal required except to enable tabs to fit in slots.
Dave.


Dave,

In response to the posting above, and Dave's first paragraph above, David Bradwell has certainly put a lot of thought into how this kit goes together. The other outstanding feature of the kit is that all necessary wire, tube, rod, nuts and bolts, etc. are provided and the brass castings are just superb. Tne instructions are also excellent suported, as they are, by a full range of drawings of each stage. Impressive, mightily impressive!

Guilty as charged, I'm afraid. As a matter of routine I always remove the etched cusp from all parts irrespective of whether the edge will be seen, or not. It's a routine I developed on the test builds of Arthur's kits and one I still follow.

Cheers

Mike

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:16 pm

Bachmann B1 Conversion

The cylinder detail is now being built up with the fitting of the valve rod guide; a piece of 1.5 mm diameter tube soldered into the front and rear of the cylinders. The piston gland has been fitted and the front and rear relief valves have been made and fitted using pieces of 1.25 mm n/silver rod. The rear piston valve head is just resting on the rear of the valve rod guide prior to being fitted, along with the front piston valve head.

Now that I am beginning to understand David Bradwell's design and engineering techniques then progress should speed up - a little. At the moment I am proceeding quite slowly and dry running every stage.

Cheers

Mike
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Dave Holt
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby Dave Holt » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:59 pm

Mike,
Have you had any thoughts about wheels, yet? In the introduction to the instructions, Dave writes about this with particular regards to the width over the crank bosses vs the space between the connecting rods (25.5 mm on the diagram).
I've just bought a set of Alan Gibson (V2) wheels - 6'-2", 18 spoke, 13" throw, pin between spokes - just right. Held against my "L" shaped B-to-B gauge, the wheels are 21.92 mm over the flanges and 22.88 mm over the bosses. With the double thickness coupling rods and a 0.3 mm washer between the boss and the rod, that gives a width over rods of 25.24 mm, even if the retainer is flush with the rod. I'm not sure that's enough clearance for comfort, so I'm thinking of thinning down the crank bosses to flush with the rims and shortening the axles to suit, if necessary. I feel a bit of sucking up to a friend who has a watchmaker's lathe coming on!
Enjoying the build and looking forward to further progress.
Dave.

mikemeg
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Re: Some North Eastern & LNER Locomotive Builds

Postby mikemeg » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:20 am

Dave Holt wrote:Mike,
Have you had any thoughts about wheels, yet? In the introduction to the instructions, Dave writes about this with particular regards to the width over the crank bosses vs the space between the connecting rods (25.5 mm on the diagram).
I've just bought a set of Alan Gibson (V2) wheels - 6'-2", 18 spoke, 13" throw, pin between spokes - just right. Held against my "L" shaped B-to-B gauge, the wheels are 21.92 mm over the flanges and 22.88 mm over the bosses. With the double thickness coupling rods and a 0.3 mm washer between the boss and the rod, that gives a width over rods of 25.24 mm, even if the retainer is flush with the rod. I'm not sure that's enough clearance for comfort, so I'm thinking of thinning down the crank bosses to flush with the rims and shortening the axles to suit, if necessary. I feel a bit of sucking up to a friend who has a watchmaker's lathe coming on!
Enjoying the build and looking forward to further progress.
Dave.


Dave,

Like you, I have two sets of Alan Gibson (V2) wheels - 6' 2", 18 spoke, etc. I haven't yet measured up the various components which will constitute the overall width up to and including the connecting rods but there are allusions, in David Bradwell's instructions, to just how tight the P4 clearances are. The front crankpin nuts will certainly have to be reversed to become flush but I suspect that the wheel bosses might have to be thinned down to be flush with the wheel rims, with a consequent reduction in the length of the axles.

I remember on one of Arthur's kits - the LNER B15 - the clearance between the crankpin and the crosshead was 1/2" on the prototype, so on the model they were tight. But they were achieveable.

What I will do is measure everything as the time approaches to fit wheels and the motion work before I actually fit anything. I'll keep you posted! Or you might keep me posted if you get to wheeling first?

Cheers

Mike
Last edited by mikemeg on Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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