Midland Kirtley 0-6-0 Well tank

[hollybeau]

Can anyone advise on the correct diameter/number of spokes the above would have used? I bought the kit more than 25 years ago from Peter K and if it came with instructions ( I don't think it did) I have lost them in the interim. I realise that these kits are still sold as part of Kemilway but an e-mail to the proprietor has not been blessed with a response. I only want to know what P4 wheels I need to buy. If anyone has built one of these it would also be interesting to know what combination of motor/gears was used. The boiler and smokebox are narrow and thin waisted and I do not want to reduce either the daylight under the boiler or move backwards into the (very open) cab. I assume at the time the kit was made the manufacturer had a motor in mind (small Portescap?) but the world has moved on. I am thinking of one of those clever High Level gearboxes but which one? Perhaps a scale drawing would be helpful.

Thanks in anticpation.

Bryan

PS in case you are wondering Holly and Beau and the names of my two border collies.

[grovenor-2685]

Unfortunately the 0-6-0WT is missing from Sharman's list so I can't help with the wheel size but if by scale drawing you mean a drawing of the High level gearboxes, you can download them from the High Level website, and you can find that via the S4 links page. (See header bar above).
Regards

[Sapper]

Hello there
I have one of these kits which has been collecting dust for over 25 years as well. I have a drawing of it which shows 4' - 2.5" 12 spoke wheels although as it is an outside framed engine one would not see much of the spokes. The number shown on the drawing in No 1095A which according to Hamilton Ellis' Midland Railway ran as a tank engine from 1875 to 1920.It was originally built from a Jenny Lind 2-2-2.

I would be interested to hear how you get on with this kit a I haven't dared start it yet!!

Regards

Sapper

[grovenor-2685]

I had a look at the photos in Midland Album, the size quoted above would fit in with the small splashers on the photo and the slightly later inside frame tanks have 12 spoke wheels which look to be close to the same size.
Keith

[hollybeau]

Many thanks to Keith (as always) and Sapper. I'll keep you informed as to progress but a start is not imminent. Any chance of me purchasing a copy of the drawing from you Sapper?

Bryan

[Hardwicke]

4'2" according to 'Locomotives at the Grouping 3 London Midland and Scottish'. If this is correct then 12 spoke plain boss (as per the trailing wheel for a Spinner) would suit.

[smyles]

Amazing how many of these Kirtley well tank kits are around. My kit (with missing parts such as chassis) has 4ft 1inch Sharman wheels with 12 spokes. Drawing in kit instructions (pages missing??) states 4ft 2 and a half inch 12 spoke wheels. Can anyone please scan missing pages for me? I have 2 pages of drawings showing 1095A at different periods and a page about the buffer beams with two photos of the real locos.
I have intended for some time to build the loco for a small P4 1860s layout but keep getting diverted to other projects! Perhaps the missing bits have put me off!
Mike

[Sapper]

Hello Mike
Just seen your last post regardin drawings of the above. I have some drawings which may be of help. One shows a side elevation with the locations of most of the parts and below a list of the locos built with numbers, scrapping dates etc. The other shows side, top and end elevations and looks as though it might have been reproduced from an old Skinley drawing. I also have a parts list from Peter K which shows the respective parts etched on the chassis and body sheets. The quality of the drawings is not very good but you are welcome to a photocopy of any of them.

Sapper

[dht]

This is my first posting on this site, so please be patient.
I scratchbuilt a Kirtley 0-6-0 WT many years ago in EM gauge, using a combination of Skinley drawing and photos. At the time the only available wheels were Romford 18mm - this was in the mid-1970's. Much later, when more appropriate wheels became available, I re-wheeled it using 17mm (Gibson??) and introduced compensation. It is powered by a Mashima 1224 motor and driven by Romford 40/1 gears in a home made gear cradle.
I think, looking back, the wheels were of 12 spoke, 4' 21/2" diameter.
The engine is still working and is one of the favourites when a shunter is reqired.
Will try to include some pics.

1604 on cattle 2.JPG

DSC01458.JPG

It was painted and lined by my old mate Larry Goddard who did a super job. Just a shame I used over thick boiler bands, as was often the case in those distant days.
The vehicle coupled to the engine is a Kirtley designed brake van and is labelled "Kirkby Malham Branch Only"

[Sapper]

It really looks a super little model and full of character. Hopefully when I get round to it mine will look something like. The scenery on the layout looks very good and any chance of some more pictures of it.

[dht]

Hello Sapper,
Thanks for the nice comments. Here are a few more pics. I did post some on the old rmweb when I enquired if anyone modelled the pre grouping period.
First one is modelled on 2631, the very first compound for the Midland, coming out of Derby in December 1901, full of 'Johnson' character. It was renumbered 1000 in 1907 and rebuilt in the form we now see in the National Collection in 1913/14. Since my layout is set in 1908, it is appropriate. The loco is scratchbuilt in nickel silver, using a Mashima motor and High Level gears. At the moment it sports Romford driving wheels although I have a set of Gibson wheels to be fitted when I get around to the painting stage.
The layout is dual gauge. My bit is to EM, the tracks in the foreground are to 00. It is a joint layout with my youngest son, but guess who has done all the work. Chris is long gone now, living in the midlands and with children of his own.
Second pic shows down the layout, supposedly looking west. The train in the lay by is headed by a scratchbuilt NER class U 0-6-2T. The layout is joint MR and NER in North Yorkshire. Tracks to the left of the train are 00.
Finally, a shot 'exit stage left' Haw Bank Tunnels, the 00 tracks are in front of the camera. The two lines, in my fevered imagination come together at Embsay West Junction just beyond the tunnels, and two or three miles from Skipton.
It's not until you look at photos that the bend in the telegraph poles is so obvious. They are modified Ratios.

[Andy W]

Lovely work.

[Andy W]

Seeing dht's loco prompted me to dig out my effort which I built quite a few years ago. I've heard some models described as "less a kit, more an introduction to scratchbuilding". If I remember rightly this fell into that category. I hope my attempts at posting images work.




Unlike London Road models' 0-4-4:


P.S. note the prototypical MDF trackbed which was tried (and rejected) by Derby circa 1908.

[dht]

Hello Ealing,
The piccies of your two Kirtley locos look very nice indeed. The 0-6-0 puts mine in the shade. Are they to 4mm/18.83 gauge?
I scratchbuilt an 0-4-4WT in 1966 from a Maskelyne drawing. It has been rewheeled and remotored a few times since then but still runs regularly. I also built one for Larry Goddard in exchange for painting and lining my locos, again many years ago - in the early 1970's.
Also built a Kirtley 800 class 2-4-0 from a Maskelyne drawing. Managed to get an Ultrascale motor/gearbox in the engine. Runs really well. These motor/gear combinations must be one of the best kept secrets, but unfortunately no longer available. I have them in NER 4-4-0, LNER 4-4-2, MR 0-6-4T, various Midland 4-4-0's and a LNER P2.
Derek

[hollybeau]

As the person who started this thread off I had assumed that it had run its course and hadn't bothered to check if it was "active"for some time. How pleased I was to return to it to find such lovely models and photos. They are enough to inspire anyone.
Since my first post I have recieved help from both Sapper and Smyles in the form of drawings etc. I have also plumped for what may be an unusual choice of driving wheel which are the 4 ' 2" dia. 12 spoke LNER tender wheels available from Ultrascale. These were chosen principally because they have no crank on the wheel. Obviously these run on 2mm. axles and not the usual 1/8" variety but since this suits the High Level gearbox (Vertical Micromiser) paired to the smallest Mashima (10/16 I think - and the only combination I could find that would fit in the firebox) and 2mm hornblocks are readily available then hopefully this should not be a problem. One problem I have yet to summount is the commercial availability of outside cranks. The only ones I am aware of are those produced by Alan Gibson but these are only suitable for 1/8" axles. The solution seems to be the use of a suitable bush on the cranks or scratchbuilding. The latter I could only do out of metal (and even then my skills are probably not up to it) but I don't fancy soldering them to the ends of the axles and melting the wheels in the process and I don't trust Loctite etc. Any thoughts anyone?
Once again wonderful photos - many thanks.

Bryan

[grovenor-2685]

As the person who started this thread off I had assumed that it had run its course and hadn't bothered to check if it was "active"for some time.

There are two solutions to this, in the footer at the bottom of the topic click on "Subscribe", the system will then send you an email when there is a new post.
The other way is to go to your user control panel (link in header bar) find the 'Board preferences' tab then in the left hand menu, Edit posting defaults and mark the 'yes' button to 'Notify me on replies'.
Regards
Keith

[Sapper]

The pictures of the layout and the engines shown are a real credit to their builders and owners and an encouragement for me in the future. Many thanks for showing them.

Sapper

[hughesp87]

Bryan,

Sorry, only just picked up your post of the 10th. I'm having similar problems with a new chassis for a North London 0-6-0T. Since I last made one of these, around 15 years ago, the Sharman wheels have been withdrawn and now the best fit is a 4'3" 12 spoke tender wheel from Gibson.

I'm thinking of getting a new wheel and crankpin boss etched in nickel silver, with an 1/8" axle hole into which I can solder an Exactoscale 1/8" OD / 2mm ID sleeve. These are well machined to fine tolerances with nice square ends, so should be capable of accurate fitting. I can then solder a smaller tube to the crankpin boss, tapped to take the crankpin. The whole lot can be soldered up before fitting to the wheel, and the final assembly and quartering should be a doddle with a jig and Loctite.

Doubtless you have spotted the problem by now - the wheels need the axle holes opening out to 1/8"! This is where an accommodating friend with a lathe comes in, and I'll await the results of his efforts before progressing the etchings any further.

Regards,

Geraint Hughes

[hollybeau]

Geraint,

Thanks for that - seems a good solution. I have not worked out the actual distances involved but as an alternative suggestion could you get away with having the tube sit up to the front face of the driving wheel rather than pass through it? That way there would be no need to open out the axle hole with its attendant problems.
Either way I would be interested in knowing how you get on. Indeed I don't mind going shares with you on the costs of producing the etchings. That way you get them at half price and I get a solution as well.

Bryan

[Andy W]

Derek, I've also just returned to this thread, you ask "Are they to 4mm/18.83 gauge?". Yes they are.

I must build a layout one day - maybe in another lifetime?

Cheers.

[dht]

Hello Ealing, Thank you again for your nice comments. At my age, looking back, this layout has taken almost a lifetime in the building, so you will have time. Sorry not to have got back earlier, went into the local hospital and had a complete replacement of my right knee on the 17 Dec. Came home yesterday, but since my 'puter is upstairs, I am not allowed to tackle the stairs without company. Today it is my Christmas treat.
Merry Christmas to you all.
Derek

[Andy W]

Derek,
take it easy and get well soon