Brassmaster Black 5

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RobM
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Brassmaster Black 5

Postby RobM » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:17 pm

Hi all,
Have just finished a Comet Caprotti which runs and looks fine, so having got the bug am now starting on a more ambitious Brassmaster Black 5.
Has anyone built one?......I'm looking for advice on which motor and gearbox to fit. I've looked at various suppliers but there are so many with so many different dimensions.
Brassmaster recommends plunger pick ups but in previous experience I have had no success. On the Comet there was no problem with pick ups using tripad board strip and pb wire, I even added a pick up on the tender, but there is very little room on the Brassmaster although I do have some ideas.
Anyway, anyone with experience of the Brassmaster Black 5 I'd appreciate any input.
Thanks
Rob
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

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Tim V
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby Tim V » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:44 pm

I would never recommend plunger pickups for all sorts of reasons, too numerous to mention here.

There are plenty of better alternatives (American pickup for example) that are easier to set up and maintain.
Tim V
Scalefour News Editor

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RobM
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby RobM » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:21 pm

Thanks Tim,
I did have experience of the bloomin' things before my 10 year sabatical. I've also read the thread on here. I've not heard of the American pick ups....tried Google but nothing.
Think I may now have sorted out gear box and motor from High Level, maybe go for the Road Runner Plus and Mashima 1220 or 1224 though I have no idea what the difference is between the two.
R
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

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Tim V
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby Tim V » Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:20 pm

Mmmmmm Black 5, I would put a larger motor in that if it would fit, a 12mm can would be a bit undersized.

American style pickups are common on the other side of the Atlantic, it's where the wheels are shorted out to the loco on one side, in the tender on the other. An insulated drawbar connects loco and tender. Or in the case of a diesel, the two bogies are shorted out to opposite sides. A little more difficult to make than pickups, but no maintenance worries.
Tim V
Scalefour News Editor

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RobM
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby RobM » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:44 pm

Thanks again Tim...
Think I'm getting the hang of the motor sizes by their reference numbers now after what you say. Have found a Mashima 1624 on the Finney and Smith web site. (same as my Comet model so should be OK)
Now you have explained the American pick ups I have heard of them, would need to further investigate that method.
Thanks again.
R
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
Updated December 2016

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Will L
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby Will L » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:43 pm

Tim V wrote:I would never recommend plunger pickups for all sorts of reasons, too numerous to mention here.


For starters, work like brakes, prevent free movement of compensated/sprung wheels, collect fluff...

Will

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John Bateson
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby John Bateson » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:02 pm

I can confirm Will's statements.
An additional feature is that on larger wheels they tend to force the wheel at the point of contact out of true on my AG wheels - my worst was a Brit which overall ran well but on examination of the action was seen to be terribly wobbly. It is now in the workshop ...
John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...
Avoiding the soaps ...
http://www.greatcentralmodels.co.uk

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RobM
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby RobM » Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:57 pm

Fear not.....I threw out the plungers I had some years ago.....kept the springs though, might find a use for those.
http://www.robmilliken.co.uk
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Dave Holt
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby Dave Holt » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:08 pm

Rob,

I've built a Brassmasters Black 5 (and a Jubilee) which I think was reasonably successful - it was on Rose Grove at Scaleforum, if you saw it.
Stanier Black V 44781 0018.JPG
Brassmasters Black 5
Stanier Black V 44781 0018.JPG (54.29 KiB) Viewed 9769 times
Just for the hell of it, I've got a second one under way - frames and axleboxes assembled, but no wheels in yet.

I used a 1616 Poertescap motor/gearbox, but these are no longer available, new, although you might be able to obtain second hand. I would suggest one of the 14 mm wide can motors and a High level gearbox - say 30 or 40:1. The 1616 required the resin firebox lower sides to be thinned down till they were translucent, but no cracking or breakage occurred, so it was OK but a bit un-nerving.
The kit goes together well, but you need to be methodical and patient, esspecially with the valve-gear. Good luck.

As for pick-ups, I've had success with wire wipers (0.33 brass wire, with plenty of length or coils to give good flexibility) and also with plungers. In this case, it's important to shorten the spring to reduce the force on the backs of the wheels, otherwise they do act like brake callipers! Pushing wheels out of gauge sounds a bit extreme.

Dave.

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby Mark Tatlow » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:07 pm

Most of the way there with mine. So to answer your original question "whats my experience", I would answer easily the most fiddly kit to make but not the most difficult. This is because it is well designed and executed so it goes together pretty well - it just takes a long time.

The two criticisms I can come up with (both pretty small I hasten to add) are:

1 - some parts are just too small and delicate, notably to the valve gear (worsened by some of the nickle silver etchings being of quite soft metal) - I dealt with this by laminating a 5 though sheet of brass in with the two to the kit and got a much stronger construction as a result.

2 - the springs to the axleboxes kept popping out. I tack soldered them to the top of the axle box and this was all sorted.

Portescap 1624 for me, onto ultrascales and it is the smoothest runner I have.
Mark Tatlow

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Horsetan
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby Horsetan » Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:37 pm

Dave Holt wrote:....I used a 1616 Portescap motor/gearbox, but these are no longer available, new, although you might be able to obtain second hand.....


Judging by the prices commanded by RG4s of any description on eBay these days, I'd say you risk spending almost as much on the motor itself as the cost of the kit! £70+ not unheard of now.

EDIT: That said, I've never been a fan of worm gears, so even with a good alternative motor I'd still be looking to see if I could create my own bevel-and-spur (or contrate-and-pinion + spur) geartrain. Ultrascale do make contrate-and-pinion sets, as do Scalextric.

Grandt Line do produce small bevel gear sets, but I have found them to be quite coarse and noisy.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

simonmoore

Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby simonmoore » Sun Sep 05, 2010 7:51 pm

I have a Brassmasters black 5 kit in the cupboard waiting the day that i can actually build it, the etches are fantastic & i have a portescap motor for it which i bought brand new recently for £7 yes £7. I also have a Brassmasters 4f kit to build one day with P4 ultrascales.

Could you post some photos of the Comet Caprotti black 5 i have just purchased this kit to work on in the coming months .

Simon.

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45609
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby 45609 » Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:43 am

Hi Rob,

I use 33SWG (or 0.25mm) phosphor bronze wire to make my pickups. The pick ups take the form of a short coil spring made by winding the wire round a piece of 2mm diameter steel bar that has a thin slot cut in the end. The following photos show the process of making a pick up.

Pickup_1.jpg
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Pickup_2.jpg
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Pickup_3.jpg
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Pickup_4.jpg
Pickup_4.jpg (33.62 KiB) Viewed 8863 times


The pick ups are soldered to copper clad plates on the underside of the loco chassis and then trimmed to length. In most cases they can be sneakily hidden behind brake gear etc.... quite important on a very "busy" Brassmasters chassis. This type of pick up imparts very little friction to the wheels and also attracts very little dirt as it has only a point contact on the tip of the wheel flange.

SD_1_sm.jpg
SD_1_sm.jpg (69.91 KiB) Viewed 8863 times


Cheers....Morgan

P.S. Apologies if you have seen this before as it was taken from a posting I made on RMweb a couple of years ago.

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Hardwicke
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby Hardwicke » Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:53 pm

off into the workshop to make one of these......
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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Flymo748
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:19 am

Hardwick wrote:off into the workshop to make one of these......


I haven't got as far as the workshop yet, but I did have a "eureka" moment walking to work yesterday, when I realised that a "2mm diameter steel bar" is a wagon axle...

Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
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craig_whilding
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby craig_whilding » Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:58 pm

Flymo748 wrote:
Hardwick wrote:off into the workshop to make one of these......


I haven't got as far as the workshop yet, but I did have a "eureka" moment walking to work yesterday, when I realised that a "2mm diameter steel bar" is a wagon axle...
Flymo

Indeed; do share how you manage to cut the slote across the top of it though, I haven't managed to make the pilot line to cut the slot..

ClikC

Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby ClikC » Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:57 pm

craig_whilding wrote:Indeed; do share how you manage to cut the slote across the top of it though, I haven't managed to make the pilot line to cut the slot..


I'd hazard a guess that the best way would be to use a pillar drill to make a hole vertically through the bar, then cut one off end of the bar, slightly off center though the hole. Thus giving you a groove to start your saw cut.

Would love to know if i'm right, or if indeed there is a much easier way of doing so.

Regards

Matt

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45609
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby 45609 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:18 am

ClikC wrote:
craig_whilding wrote:Indeed; do share how you manage to cut the slote across the top of it though, I haven't managed to make the pilot line to cut the slot..


I'd hazard a guess that the best way would be to use a pillar drill to make a hole vertically through the bar, then cut one off end of the bar, slightly off center though the hole. Thus giving you a groove to start your saw cut.



Cutting the slot was nothing as elaborate as that. I held the 2mm bar (For Flymo: I seem to recall it was a spare axle out a packet of Alan Gibson bogie wheels) in the vice and gentle drew a 5/0 blade in the piercing saw backwards, at an angle, to make a small notch on the end of the bar and start the slot. Once started and there is no risk of the blade wandering you can speed up the cut and move it back and forth bringing the blade flat (perpendicular to the axis of the bar). Depth of the slot needs to be about 2 to 3mm and the width needs to be a good snug fit on the wire. If not it keeps falling out when trying to make the first coil on the pickup and induces foul language... ;)

Cheers....Morgan

P.S. If anyone going to Scaleforum wants to see the set up and have a go at making some pickups I'll have the stuff with me on the "Modelling the Early BR Period" demo stand.

Rdunning
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby Rdunning » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:51 pm

Rob,

To answer your original question, I built one of these a few years ago now and used a Faulhaber coreless motor (as used in the Portescap 1624 set up) in the tender driving the centre driving wheels via a cardan shaft and Sharman 40:1 gearbox. There's plenty of room for the drive shaft under the cab floor.

The advantage of this setup is that you can fill the entire boiler and firebox with the weights provided in the Brassmasters kit, giving good weight distribution. You have to make a channel in the ashpan weight for the drive shaft to pass through though.

I'd endorse all the adverse comments about plunger pickups too, wire wipers are much better.

I found the chassis rolled extremely freely when first wheeled up with coupling rods fitted, so accurate is the design and quality of the bearings and slots.

It's a kit well worth persevering with. Good luck!

Richard Dunning

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Horsetan
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby Horsetan » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:02 am

Brassmasters "Black 5" is a very sexy kit.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Philbax
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby Philbax » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:00 pm

HI
The Class 5 on here
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1421
is a brassmasters. Talking of acuracy I built the chassis and then tried the bill bedford connecting rods I had already prepared for the stephenson version and they fitted perfectly,
In fact I the whole project started out with a left over perserverence chassis, a hornby body was aquired but this was the early version and too short, could be remedied with a commet cab I thought. then SWMBO offered a loca kit for xmas!
That was it then so along came a brassmasters class 5 which is the subject of the stephen version.

still have a perserverence chassis awaiting a good body, but at least I have some good brassmasters vale gear for it!

An excellent kit, but I suggest that you build the chassis befor deciding on the position and sie of the weights. Both my brassnmasters Scots suffer from no suspension (give) on the bogie probably due to too much weight in the smokebox. The Class 5 looks to be the same as I went and added all the wieghts included in the kit. I think I would leave out the smokebox one, we shall see....


Philbax

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Horsetan
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Re: Brassmaster Black 5

Postby Horsetan » Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:44 am

Philbax wrote:HI
... Both my brassnmasters Scots suffer from no suspension (give) on the bogie probably due to too much weight in the smokebox. ...


I've got bigger problems than you, then! My Brassmasters Scot was acquired secondhand; previous owner had tried to build it in "OO" and ruined it before giving up. Have to dismantle the chassis and start it again using replacement etches from Brassmasters.
That would be an ecumenical matter.


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