Any Wheel and size!

David Bigcheeseplant
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:10 pm

Any Wheel and size!

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Tue May 16, 2017 7:58 pm

Having designed and got 3D printed some Manning Wardle wheels, which I designed as a bespoke design, I came up with the idea of using Fusion 360 to create any spoked wheel. I created the changeable parameters such as diameter crank throw number of spokes if the crank pin was between or on the spokes, hub width. and the wheel is created in a fraction of a second ready to be 3D printed.
 
It only took around half an hour to create this set up and would need proper prototype drawings to get the correct spoke profile flare etc, but the idea seems to work in principle, I know you need to get tyres but this may solve the problem of wheels you can't get.
 
David 
Attachments
wheel 3.JPG
wheel 2.JPG
wheel 1.JPG

User avatar
Horsetan
Posts: 960
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:24 am

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby Horsetan » Tue May 16, 2017 9:49 pm

Interesting. The way to decent BR Standard 6/7/8 and 9F centres?
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Knuckles
Posts: 1208
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby Knuckles » Wed May 17, 2017 12:14 am

Fusion 360 might be worth looking into if it truly is that easy to create a wheel.

Other than Alan Gibson is there anywhere else that does tires? Also what 3D printed material would you reccomend? I'm not sure WSF, FUD or even the newer HDA would be the best choice.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

David Bigcheeseplant
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:10 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Wed May 17, 2017 6:49 am

To be fair the designs I have used as examples need working up as the spoke profile is wrong and the flare into the rim and hub, I was just seeing if the concept worked with fully editable parameters, I can also add other options such as bevel rims etc.

The option of 3D printing wheels centres could be printed in wax and cast in brass. I am not looking into producing a wheel range but the idea is that any wheel can be produced and sent to a printer.

As for tyres how easy would these be to source if some one had a CNC lathe?

David

Terry Bendall
Posts: 1659
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:46 am

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed May 17, 2017 7:00 am

David Bigcheeseplant wrote:As for tyres how easy would these be to source if some one had a CNC lathe?


Not difficult at all with the right kit.

Terry Bendall

nigelcliffe
Posts: 514
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:31 am

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby nigelcliffe » Wed May 17, 2017 7:23 am

Tyres - if a decent number are required (over £1000 worth), could be mixed sizes which are then sorted, then I have contacts for a good CNC company who make tyres for the 2mm Scale Association.

Off-list correspondence if someone wants to pursue this, but serious volumes are needed, not "can you do twenty".

- Nigel

billbedford
Posts: 684
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby billbedford » Wed May 17, 2017 7:38 am

Terry Bendall wrote:
David Bigcheeseplant wrote:As for tyres how easy would these be to source if some one had a CNC lathe?


Not difficult at all with the right kit.



...and deep pockets.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

David Knight
Posts: 639
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:02 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby David Knight » Wed May 17, 2017 7:38 pm

A possible candidate for centres would be the W4 Peckett. Tyres can be had from the Gibson WD tender wheels which eliminates much tedious turning.

All that said, how well does the printed material accept axles? Is it rigid or with some give like the Gibson ones?

Cheers,

David

User avatar
Russ Elliott
Posts: 930
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:38 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby Russ Elliott » Fri May 19, 2017 12:22 am

I accept there is probably no such thing as a 'typical' 3D print, but what kind of typical tolerance can be expected of the wheel bore axis with respect to its (as printed, i.e. unmachined) diameter? 0.010", 0.005", 0.002". 0.001", 0005"?

wheelbore-axis-error.png
wheelbore-axis-error.png (1.86 KiB) Viewed 5255 times

decauville1126
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:50 am

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby decauville1126 » Sat May 20, 2017 8:45 pm

A possible candidate for centres would be the W4 Peckett. Tyres can be had from the Gibson WD tender wheels which eliminates much tedious turning.

All that said, how well does the printed material accept axles? Is it rigid or with some give like the Gibson ones?

Cheers,

David


My son did some custom wheel centres for me which were printed using Shapeways FUD. Outside diameter was dead size to go into a Gibson tyre and axle hole was dead size 2.00mm. Fitted beautifully. Gear coupled axles. Superb concentricity. Easy to loctite if required.

And I'd too be interested in some Peckett W4 centres. When the loco came out there was a massive flurry of interest including potential P4 conversions. Only ever saw an EM one come to fruition so wonder what happened.

Knuckles
Posts: 1208
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby Knuckles » Sat May 20, 2017 9:07 pm

I think what might have happened is they sold out. More apparently are on the way but by the time I thought I might buy one from most on line searches I did they seem to be gone. Have not checked recently though.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

David Knight
Posts: 639
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:02 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby David Knight » Sat May 20, 2017 9:42 pm

decauville1126 wrote:
A possible candidate for centres would be the W4 Peckett. Tyres can be had from the Gibson WD tender wheels which eliminates much tedious turning.

All that said, how well does the printed material accept axles? Is it rigid or with some give like the Gibson ones?

Cheers,

David


My son did some custom wheel centres for me which were printed using Shapeways FUD. Outside diameter was dead size to go into a Gibson tyre and axle hole was dead size 2.00mm. Fitted beautifully. Gear coupled axles. Superb concentricity. Easy to loctite if required.

And I'd too be interested in some Peckett W4 centres. When the loco came out there was a massive flurry of interest including potential P4 conversions. Only ever saw an EM one come to fruition so wonder what happened.


I can only speak for myself but first I lost my bottle when it came to getting the existing tyre off then life got in the way and the project got shelved. But hope springs... :)

Cheers,

David

Crepello
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:32 am

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby Crepello » Sat May 20, 2017 10:09 pm

decauville1126 wrote:My son did some custom wheel centres for me which were printed using Shapeways FUD.

Without photos, that's just a tease!

Brian Corrie
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:53 am

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby Brian Corrie » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:31 am

Arise Lazarus!
I have a possibly rather dumb question with which I shall attempt to resurrect this thread: what shape is the inside of the tyre?
Never having disected a wheel I am wondering if the moulding is just an interference fit on the tyre or if here is a feature of some sort?

User avatar
Flymo748
Posts: 2184
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby Flymo748 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:48 pm

Brian Corrie wrote:Arise Lazarus!
I have a possibly rather dumb question with which I shall attempt to resurrect this thread: what shape is the inside of the tyre?
Never having disected a wheel I am wondering if the moulding is just an interference fit on the tyre or if here is a feature of some sort?


Brian,

Because I had just decided that I was never going to be able to cure the wobble on one of the axles of my Y14, due to a loose fit of the Alan Gibson wheel on the axle, you prompted me to take it off and examine it. So here you are...

Alan Gibson tyre profile  (1).JPG


Alan Gibson tyre profile  (2).JPG


Alan Gibson tyre profile  (3).JPG


Alan Gibson tyre profile  (4).JPG


Alan Gibson tyre profile  (5).JPG


Alan Gibson tyre profile  (6).JPG


You should be able to see that there is an internal lip at the edge, on the opposite side to the flange. Interestingly, there is no corresponding lip on the rear face of the wheel. I assume that this is to allow the wheel centres to be pressed into the tyre from the wheel, and it relies on friction to keep it there.

If you'd like the bits for closer examination, PM me your address and I'll stick them in the post to you.

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Philip Hall
Posts: 1325
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby Philip Hall » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:55 am

The tyres on an AG wheels are indeed an interference fit from the back, just how much of an interference fit has changed over the years. In the good old days there was a fair bit of criticism about tyres falling off ie being a loose fit. Colin Seymour has done something about this and the fit is now much better. The difference between the two kinds of fit is of course fairly minuscule!

Ultrascale wheels have a groove turned into the inner face of the tyre into which the centre is moulded, thus the tyre cannot come off. Sharman wheels used the same idea.

The toughest wheels that I have come across, at least those with plastic centres, are Hornby! They are concentric, wobble free, beautifully moulded and the tyres have little spikes cast into the inner face which stops the centre moving. I have blunted piecing saw blades trying to cut away balance weights for reuse, such is the grade of plastic they use. If only they made some for P4 and EM...

Philip

ColinMcC
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:13 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby ColinMcC » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:34 am

Paul,

If it helps then I still have a few complete sets of wheels for the Y14/J15. You have the added advantage that they have the correct number of spokes.

They were manufactured to replace the incorrect wheels in the Alan Gibson kits. You could have those wheels if you're interested.

To misquote The Undertones - You have my personal email address and you can use it.

Colin.

nigelcliffe
Posts: 514
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:31 am

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby nigelcliffe » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:39 am

Philip Hall wrote:The tyres on an AG wheels are indeed an interference fit from the back, just how much of an interference fit has changed over the years. In the good old days there was a fair bit of criticism about tyres falling off ie being a loose fit. Colin Seymour has done something about this and the fit is now much better. The difference between the two kinds of fit is of course fairly minuscule!


Indeed, as someone involved in 2mm wheel manufacture, a few "gnats whatsits" is the difference between a good fit and a rubbish fit. Too tight and the wheel centre distorts, too loose and it falls off.

Loctite and 3M make retaining compounds, which will in most cases secure a loose rim. Though Flymo's rim now needs a bit more work to re-fix it.

The toughest wheels that I have come across, at least those with plastic centres, are Hornby! They are concentric, wobble free, beautifully moulded and the tyres have little spikes cast into the inner face which stops the centre moving. I have blunted piecing saw blades trying to cut away balance weights for reuse, such is the grade of plastic they use. If only they made some for P4 and EM...



If you dig around RMWeb, there are some posts by "Izzy" who shows how to convert the Hornby wheels in their J15 to P4 standards. A fair bit of lathe and hand work, but end result is a decent P4 conversion. I know Izzy fairly well, used to live not too far from his house.


Nigel

Brian Corrie
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:53 am

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby Brian Corrie » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:00 pm

Thanks to Flymo and subsequent posters, this has been very informative.
I am minded to obtain a form-tool for the flange plus coning profile and have a go in EN1a steel. Though I imagine consistency in diameter of boring the inside surface of the tyre is the important thing so turning and parting plain rings with a consistent ID would be a good test first
Merry Christmas and all that
Brian

nigelcliffe
Posts: 514
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:31 am

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby nigelcliffe » Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:28 pm

I think form-tools are over-stated in their usefulness. Unless doing an awful lot of rims, and owning a very rigid lathe, they're not going to give you any benefit over a conventional tool held at the appropriate angles.
The coning angle can be set on a top-slide on all but the most basic of lathes. The flange angles aren't critical(*), just the flange thickness and a sensible depth, and the joins between the cone and the flange is a curve which can be done free-hand with a file or a graver.

It should be possible to turn both the inside bore and the tread in one operation, so they are certain to be concentric. The flange will be at the outer end, the final act of parting will also finish the front face of the rim.

Or get your friendly local CNC shop to turn them out. I have >10,000 rims for 2mm wagon wheels in a small tub under my bench....

(* standard purists will go ape-**** over that statement, but those who just want to build trains which run fine can carry on and not worry about it. )

- Nigel

User avatar
Flymo748
Posts: 2184
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby Flymo748 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:09 pm

And found in my scrap box of old wheels for refurbishment, a Mike Sharman driving wheel...

Sharman wheel profile  (1).JPG


Sharman wheel profile  (2).JPG


Sharman wheel profile  (4).JPG


Sharman wheel profile  (5).JPG


Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

billbedford
Posts: 684
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby billbedford » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:16 am

Yep, Sharman wheels had the centres moulded into the tyre.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

David Bigcheeseplant
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:10 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:16 pm

I have refined my wheel creator and can now pop in most variables to produce most standard spoked wheels. The Peckett wheel I added the balance weights and adjusted the spoke profile to a more square profile in a shorter time than it took to write this post!

David
Attachments
wheels_and_axle_2018-Dec-25_12-24-41PM-000_CustomizedView17748214536_jpg.jpg
wheels_and_axle_2018-Dec-25_07-39-07PM-000_CustomizedView3679496637_jpg.jpg
wheels_and_axle_2018-Dec-25_08-03-49PM-000_CustomizedView10818751154_jpg.jpg
Peckett wheels axle v3.png

User avatar
Horsetan
Posts: 960
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:24 am

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby Horsetan » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:49 pm

Excellent!

Will it do a 9F wheel? :thumb
That would be an ecumenical matter.

David Bigcheeseplant
Posts: 300
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:10 pm

Re: Any Wheel and size!

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:53 pm

Give me the info of a 9F wheel and I will pop it in and see what it comes up with.


Return to “Steam Locomotives”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest