GSWR/HR Drummond 4000gal tender kits or drawings?

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jon price
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GSWR/HR Drummond 4000gal tender kits or drawings?

Postby jon price » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:04 pm

Having accidentally strayed into an area where I have zero knowledge can anyone tell me whether the Drummond 4000 gallon tender used by the GSWR and HR is available as a kit, or failing that whether drawings are available?
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: GSWR/HR Drummond 4000gal tender kits or drawings?

Postby Mark Tatlow » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:25 pm

Now I am not that good with the tender sizes but I am guessing that the 4,000 gallon is the bogie "water cart" tender suitable for a Castle.

If so, then Jidenco/Falcon Brass used to do a not great one but it will be the second hand market to get one (and you will get the loco too). In white metal, DJH also did one but the same comment applies.

You just might get Lochgorm models to produce the etchings for one for you. They do the loco in 7mm but have not produced it in 4mm due to not wishing to compete with DJH/Falcon Brass and also due to the wheelbase tightness difficulty meaning that it would not work for OO/EM modellers. I did manage to charm a 4mm version of the entire kit out of Andy Copp a while back - on the basis I promised never to complain about the tight wheelbase!

He might do the same for you but he is not well so may not be quite so willing.
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jon price
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Re: GSWR/HR Drummond 4000gal tender kits or drawings?

Postby jon price » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:14 pm

Now this is the problem with not knowing anything. I assumed what I was told was correct, when it is possible it isn't. The source photo shows the tender in question is a six wheel thing with "sausage shaped" slots between the axles. This one apparently towed behind the HR 4-6-0 "Brodie Castle", (LMS 14691) built in 1917 and subsequently kept at St.Rollox when that loco was withdrawn from service in 1938. Now this information might not be correct either, being based on a reported LMS tender plate which can't be seen in the photo, or the information might be correct but the description of this as a Drummond 4000 gallon tender might not be correct. Thoughts?
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: GSWR/HR Drummond 4000gal tender kits or drawings?

Postby Mark Tatlow » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:55 pm

Yepp, I understand that............but need to look up the bible to determine what the answer to the tender size is but I think you may well be unlucky.

The Highland's CME at the outset of the first war designed what may have been the company's finest loco's - the River class. There was, however, one tiny flaw with them - they were too heavy for the line!! As a result they were sold to the CR where they were definitely the finest 4-6-0 that company had (light blue touch fuse and retire..............). As a result, they found themselves chronically short of motive power and turned back to an old stalwart design - the Castle Class and order another batch which was delivered in 1917 (termed Castle III, meaning the third batch).

These had some subtle differences to the earlier class, slightly larger wheels, different cab windows and - crucially for you - 6 wheeled tenders. What I don't know is if they shared these with other classes that you might be able to use but I have a sneaky feeling they were a one off.

I will confirm when I can check the drawings but you may need to be ready to do some scratch building.............

Strangely, the Rivers did eventually work the line in the LMS era after only quite limited improvements to the line

A link to a picture of a Castle III http://www.ambaile.org.uk/detail/en/255 ... -perth.htm

and a River http://www.ambaile.org.uk/detail/en/259 ... -14761.htm
Mark Tatlow

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jon price
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Re: GSWR/HR Drummond 4000gal tender kits or drawings?

Postby jon price » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:34 pm

Brilliant Mark, the tender is clearly the one for the Castle III class with the coal rails, so at least my source seems to be accurate. It is a nice looking loco, but a shame they only lasted 21 years. I guess it was a case of no similar or suitable boilers available when the LMS had to do heavy repairs.

At least if there is no kit around I will save some money as it will be made from plasticard. No need for anything fancy as it is a water cart. Then all I need to know is where I can lay my hands on some drawings!
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andrewnummelin
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Re: GSWR/HR Drummond 4000gal tender kits or drawings?

Postby andrewnummelin » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:23 am

Way outside my area of interest so may be relevant, but could this be useful?
http://www.hmrs.org.uk/drawings/drawinginfo.php?id=18688
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Andrew Nummelin

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jon price
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Re: GSWR/HR Drummond 4000gal tender kits or drawings?

Postby jon price » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:04 pm

This looks as if it might be the tender Andrew, but I'm not confident enough to order this without some more expert input..
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jasp
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Re: GSWR/HR Drummond 4000gal tender kits or drawings?

Postby jasp » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:29 pm

Check the Highland Railway Society website: Contacts
Toward the bottom of the page are details of the drawing service.
JP

Mark Tatlow
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Re: GSWR/HR Drummond 4000gal tender kits or drawings?

Postby Mark Tatlow » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:02 pm

Jon,

I have now done some research and can give a reasonably authorative answer to what is available in terms of tenders for the Castle III.

There is no kit for a tender that matches the Castle III tender; it seems to be a one off for the three locomotives. The tenders for the River had a reduced wheelbase and increased height in comparison. Unfortunately, the same applies to all of the other HR classes so you are probably going to have to scratch build it I am afraid.

With regard to drawings, the only one that is available is a LMS diagram that appears in my father's book; A History of Highland Locomotives. https://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Highla ... B000GTEMYU (but you might get it a tad cheaper on ebay. These are shown below.

IMG_3295.JPG


IMG_3296.JPG


There will be a few pictures on am baile which are the Highland Railway Society's collection. There are also a fair number in Cormack & Stevenson https://www.amazon.co.uk/Highland-Railw ... ocomotives - again possibly cheaper on ebay if you wait.

I have checked the HRS's drawing list and I am afraid the only one available is that which is reproduced in my father's book.

Why is it that you are only interested in the tender; do you already have the locomotive?
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jon price
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Re: GSWR/HR Drummond 4000gal tender kits or drawings?

Postby jon price » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:51 am

Thanks for all this info. In answer to your query Mark, I'm enbarked on a side project which looks set to be infinitely more complex than I first thought. I'm aiming to produce a cameo representing the activity of 150 RCC at St.Vaast d'Erquiqueville during the first week of June 1940 in support of the deployment of 1st Armoured Division, covering the BEF and French units carrying out a fighting retreat towards Brittany. As P4 projects go I think this is probably pretty esoteric. The locos are a Dean Goods, a Jinty and a Hawthorn/EE Diesel Electric.

The RE deployed at least ten tenders for use as water carts at locations away from the main bases. There is a photograph of one of these tenders in France numbered W^D W10, which is the one we are discussing. St.Rollox appears to have supplied redundant tenders to the WD in 1941, and this one was clearly supplied in 1939/40, so it is possible that other large-ish tenders were supplied, for which no information seems to still exist. If I knew more about the LMS at St.Rollox I could possibly find a kit that could plausibly serve as one of the other tenders, but this would involve a lot of research which I'm not likely to be able to pursue. This is probably an "angels on pinheads" exercise as WD W10 was abandoned in the retreat to Dunkerque and never made it to the Rennes area, but I thought I might use it if it proved feasible. I could of course use a Robinson tender from an ROD 2-8-0, as it is likely there were quite a few of these lying around, and they would be easy to get hold of.
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