Furness J1 Class - Complete!

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barhamd
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Re: Furness J1 Class - New Springy Experiments?

Postby barhamd » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:16 pm

I think I'd much rather see an arrangement a bit more like we typically see with older etched brass chassis kits where the chassis is designed to be unsprung but with easy options to find hornblocks if you want. Would it be possible perhaps to design something which could easily be removed to allow the fitting of a highlevel horn block or the like?

I guess I'd thing most people who wanted a sprung version would also like the idea of being able to use existing conventional jigging methods to set up hornblocks/bearing/coupling rods.

David

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Knuckles
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Re: Furness J1 Class - New Springy Experiments?

Postby Knuckles » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:55 pm

barhamd wrote:I think I'd much rather see an arrangement a bit more like we typically see with older etched brass chassis kits where the chassis is designed to be unsprung but with easy options to find hornblocks if you want. Would it be possible perhaps to design something which could easily be removed to allow the fitting of a highlevel horn block or the like?

I guess I'd thing most people who wanted a sprung version would also like the idea of being able to use existing conventional jigging methods to set up hornblocks/bearing/coupling rods.

David



But...what you described is what I am trying to do! Unsure if you misunderstood.

To use a proper hornblock would require you to simply not use the carriers and the rectangular hole would be ready for the hornblock already. For a fixed axle you would just slide the circular carriers in place and retain them.

Make sense? :)

I'm not trying to invent a sprung system, rather an easy to set up and modify chassis that is adaptable to a variety of building methods from the off. Fixed, compensation, downward slop/springing or full blown springing.

Only the optional oval intermediate downward slop/springing idea is really my own system I'm trying out. I know others have tried similar too. Unless I do the oval idea repositioned so a bush can move up and down.

For jigging you could still do that if using real hornblocks but as the chassis are not metal you could just use some thick Araldite or Superglue to take up any micro gaps.
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Philip Hall
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Re: Furness J1 Class - New Springy Experiments?

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:09 pm

I wondered whether I had your intentions right as I wrote my comment! So,your idea of a retainer trapping a bush is fine, although the bush sliding up and down in a plastic material might be a problem. But as the actual amount of movement is small, and part of it will be within the retainer it should be fine. Your design is interesting - good luck with it.

I think your description is OK, but maybe Bearing Retainer is more descriptive?

Philip

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Knuckles
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Re: Furness J1 Class - Removable Bearings?

Postby Knuckles » Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:46 pm

Thanks Philip. :)

Your name makes more sense so I used half of it. Rather than retainers I have called them Carriers because although they retain if a bush is moving inside non circular ones then technically I guess they literally are carrying them. So, Bearing Carriers.

Also for this I have opted to call things a Multi Build Suspension System (MBSS) not because it is a suspension system but because the goal is to get a 3D printed chassis that is ready from the off to accept multiple ways of suspension, compensation or downward play/springing. This isn't to say no work or modification will be needed but it should if successful make life easier. This is my hope anyway. Might take Suspension out the name actually. MBS works.

Also very much looking forward to fitting wheels in a press without the chassis this time. Should be 10 times easier and axles can simple drop in or out of the chassis at will. Keeper can be anything, scrap etch etc. Easy to add and remove.

I was hoping for more feedback on here and RMweb but it is only coming in trickles so I guess I better just get on with it and see what happens. One example I could do with advice on is how much should wheels move upwards and how much downwards for a fully compensated or sprung loco?

I have read info in digests and CLAG and it seems optional so I'm thinking 0.7mm each way thus 1.4mms.

This seems to be a fair bit of movement but not OTT but I'd like more info if possible.

Will be ready to order this new chassis soon and trial it.
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Will L
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Re: Furness J1 Class - Removable Bearings?

Postby Will L » Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:50 pm

Knuckles wrote:...I was hoping for more feedback on here and RMweb but it is only coming in trickles so I guess I better just get on with it and see what happens. One example I could do with advice on is how much should wheels move upwards and how much downwards for a fully compensated or sprung loco?

I have read info in digests and CLAG and it seems optional so I'm thinking 0.7mm each way thus 1.4mms.

This seems to be a fair bit of movement but not OTT but I'd like more info if possible...


Sorry Knuckles I meant to reply before. The CSB recommendation is 0.5 either side (1mm in total). Experience says this is more than enough unless your track work is truly awful. When investigating this I was surprised to find out that this is a fair representation of full size practice.

That's OK for CSB and compensated chassis where one can plan with reasonable confidence to have axle is at the mid point on perfectly flat track. Springing system which normally hold the axle at either the top or the bottom of it travel probably need a similar amount of movement but of course the oval axle hole end up in different places. So a universal system going to have a have number of alternative parts.

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Knuckles
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Re: Furness J1 Class - Removable Bearings?

Postby Knuckles » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:56 pm

Thanks Will, that helps. :)

Would a 0.7mm movement either way be too much do you think or maybe fine for extra leeway.

So far I have made fixed axle carriers, 1mm downward ovals, and 0.7 up and down ovals but could easily make some 0.5 ones too.

You are right about needing several parts but they mostly are quick tweak variants.

Will be interested to trial this soon.

Cheers. :)
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Will L
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Re: Furness J1 Class - Removable Bearings?

Postby Will L » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:18 pm

Knuckles wrote:Would a 0.7mm movement either way be too much do you think or maybe fine for extra leeway.


Unnecessary large I would have said.

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Knuckles
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Re: Furness J1 Class - Removable Bearings?

Postby Knuckles » Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:06 am

Oky doky.

Will take about 5 or 10 minutes to do a 0.5 version.

The only major downer is they have to be sprued as Shapeways only allow 2 metal items in one file, and seeing as this will require 4 items per axle they need to be sprued sadly. Strong cutters or hacksaw blade at the ready.


EDIT, Ok, made the 1mm versions too. Order coming closer by the day.

Think I might be ready now but just going over a few things as a final check.
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jim s-w
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Re: Furness J1 Class - Removable Bearings?

Postby jim s-w » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:06 pm

Hi knuckles

How rigid is the chassis anyway? Does it already flex?

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Knuckles
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Re: Furness J1 Class - Removable Bearings?

Postby Knuckles » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:21 pm

The WSF ones flex a bit if you bend them so I know this isn't the best but I and others have have used them have been getting things working, however the FUD ones are rigid, especially after the white spirit cleaning. FUD is a resin-plastic (depends which part of the website you read) so can be a bit brittle with small parts but in a chassis with nominal 2mm frames and spacers I find it to be strong and will take a lot of hand bending force to get the frame to break.

The FUD is a lot crisper and smoother too so for this new trial of mine it might work out better. Will order a chassis in each to do more comprehensive testing.....especially as it will now be easy to insert and remove the wheels without risking the pressing and quartering.
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Re: Furness J1 Class - Removable Bearings?

Postby Knuckles » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:38 am

Ok the latest Sit' Rep' is I have ordered a new revised J1 chassis in P4 both a WSF one and a FUD one. The revised kit comes with a set of Fixed Circular bearing retainers as standard. The spares and optional sets created will do enough for 6 axles so as they are added into the file you get spares with the J1. The rear axle however has a bearing retainer already fixed in position becasue cutting out a hornblock for that will risk the chassis seeing as that roof part of the frame is so thin. It couldn't be raised unless you want it poking through to the crew. Maybe something here could be done for springing but it is unlikely. The bottom of the front hornguide area has a strength strip to prevent warping the print when curing so this will carefully need cutting off.

Also I ordered some of the downward slop/springing bearing retainers in polished bronze steel. As I ordered both a WSF and FUD chassis I'll be getting two sets of fixed retainers, one set for each material, plus the metal downward ones. I'll order the p and down movement ones for springing or compensation options later as I just want to do some basic tests first such as adding and removing the different retainers with the different materials and see how they behave, how much extra tweaking may be needed, how easy and accurately the axles can be removed and replaced etc.

As I will have two more chassis once tested I can dedicate one for the downward method that I worked into the prototype fixed one and the second new chassis I will try some other methods.

Was going to show you this picture from Photobucket like usual but am getting a 404 error so it is attached instead. The leaf springs are in the file but not sprued to the body, instead wire will need to be added as the hangars and fitted into the frame underside. Easy enough and also easier as you don't have to cut them off and reposition them unless maybe you want to get the axles out, in which case lightly tacking them in place shouldn't be too hard to remove, and they could if setup right function as the retainers themselves - bonus.

The leaf springs, bearing carriers, radial (& pony) arms are all loose. Frame spacer is sprued to the side as usual. Cylinder covers at front added too.

J1 P4 Revised Chassis.jpg


I don't know about you but it looks like some elaborate lazer rifle or a spaceship. :shock:
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Re: Furness J1 Class - Complete!

Postby Knuckles » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:31 pm

Rightio, Super Hyper Madman Update time.

Photobucket has been playing up and I still haven't been able to upload anything new yet so for the time being it is attachments I'm afraid.

Following on from previous progress of the J1 I now present the rest.



The Bearing Carrier idea works! It needs tweaking, but the concept works so I'm dang happy.

I tried at first 3D printing them in metal as it was highlighted to me that a potential issue could be the brass bearings spinning in the plastic carriers would at some stage wear away. A good point, although unless we rag an engine to death to test it we won't know for sure. Good news is the FUD and WSF ones are very cheap for a lot of them and replacing them is a doddle...as I was hoping for. The metal ones were a fail as they were all over the place dimensionally so I had to dump the idea.

The following picture sequence should be obvious as to how they work but there is text inside anyway.
0 - MBS Build Sequence.jpg


Before I blab on too much about how amazing I am (lol!), time for some honesty. The system isn't yet perfect, but certainly working. There are two main areas that need seeing to.

1) When the bearing Carriers are out of the chassis, I found that the chassis itself would curl up slightly, then when the bearing carriers are in position even after a teeny bit of filing they would still contribute to the chassis splaying like a banana, however, this was alleviated once the carriers were secured in position. Originally I wanted to design holes into the chassis so you just thread a brass rod or whatever through, due to the usual printing tolerances I couldn't so instead the rods were glued underneath either side of the carriers. The first one I put the glue in the wrong place and as a result it isn't coming out! The rest I was more careful and so they have been easily removable.

Other than gluing the carrier retainers in, to get a more rigid chassis etching on this system likely wouldn't be the best option. My goal is to make it easy for you all, so....milling? Suggestions on a postcard please, I like the idea, just have zero idea how to go about it, who to see and at a realistic price.

2) The coupling rods threw up an issue.

Since doing all the test builds for the SCC range thus far the 3D Printed Coupling Rods have been fine, however this time it seems they were not quite up to scratch. I was struggling to get this one running well, both on the initial fixed axle chassis and this new Multi Build System (MBS) as I've called it. I found they must have shrank a tad and so I on one ended up drilling one of the crank pin holes out LOTS and then soldering a washer in there pushed to the side to correct the distance, a right faff. On another I scratch built my own using one of the good ones as a jig.

Never scratch built a rod before but it was pretty easy. Sheet of brass, holes marked out and drilled, solder laminated to another piece for strength, cocktail sticks through it and the good rod, tack solder join it....carve up to profile.

20161119_151454.jpg

20161119_151651.jpg


I'll let you decide which one is the 3D printed rod and which is the scratch built one. It is clear enough but at a glance not much between them.

20161119_163358.jpg

20161119_163408.jpg


So, they are my honesty points out the way. I want to look into milling for the MBS especially as I see it as the only way to improve it. The system works fine with care and is easier to build than the standard fixed axle which was one of my aims. Rather than convert ALL the range into this system as an option I'll leave them off. However, if you would like any loco chassis as a MBS then let me know, make it clear you are genuine in your intent to get one and I'll set to work converting the chassis of your choice and make it available. So to that end, they are available but only upon request.

Coupling rods I have been wanting to etch for a good while but it is another skill I am yet to learn which is why for the moment they are 3D printed, however I have been mucking about with Qcad and seem to be understanding it so when the time is right I'll get those sorted.

As originally said I had no issue with the builds to date only now has the issue been highlighted to me, and so I apologise if anyone is having a similar issue. I also understand this may put you off getting them and most people would keep their gob shut - but I'm not most people. I value truth and honesty and it is my sincere desire to produce quality items that are easy to use, so once etching is cracked I'll make them available.

Furthermore, when they become available, it is my plan to make the etched ones a free replacement at my own expense to anyone who has to date ordered a 3D printed one from Shapeways using a Shapeways account (So I can verify who indeed has purchased them). For now though all I can offer is the printed rods.

Ok, back to the main progress...

You have already seen most of the build of the fixed chassis on previous posts, I have added the cylinder covers as per the 3D screen shots and they look good I reckon, the 00 ones will have to be cut off somewhat though. This pic shows the MBS P4 J1 chassis.
FR J1 Build 0.jpg


Bottom left are the leaf springs, I left them off my J1 as they are not that visible and to fit them you need to drill holes in the shanks and chassis and insert 05 rod or similar. It isn't hard but I have been amongst life and a 10 hour night shift doing this J1 long enough now so I couldn't be bothered, however they are in a packet if I change my mind! The middle shows the different arm components already shown in previous posts and the far right has the bearing carriers sprued together - looking like an electrical sub station in T gauge...yeah.

The front leading wheels have cantilever pick ups that also act as springs pushing downward, same as the drivers. The only drawback with the smaller wheels is that if the springs are not pressured enough the wheel is too floppy and if it is pressured enough it acts as a brake and the wheel doesn't turn enough! So, I think maybe using lighter gauge rod for the pick ups and providing a spring on the inside pushing on a bearing or something might be a better option. A future tweak maybe.

The J1 has car balance weights added, two in the boiler towards the smokebox and one on the motor

1 Motor Weight.jpg


This seems to be about right for the balance, the bunker sort of has weight in because it is chock full of real coal.

FR transfers are from Fox-Transfers and the lining is my first attempt at doing it myself using Crafty Computor Paper. I was pleasantly surprised how they act the same as 'real' decals! However I also found the transfer film was visible and the thin vermillion / red lines flanking the black were not visible. I didn't bother adding them to the boiler bands.

I decided a while ago I wanted to gloss this engine but have always had issues glossing things, this time I have found a method that seems to work. Citadel Purity Seal Satin as the first coat and then two coats of Humbrol Acrylic Gloss Varnish on top. Worked a treat.

Happily the gloss made the transfer film almost disappear and brought the thin red lines out to visibility. Great stuff.

However I also had much tribulation as the FR transfers were a super sized moon pig to fix over those rivets, I must have wasted half a sheet and eventually the top ones were sitting over bits of the old ones as they in effect packed up the gap between the rivets. Maybe you could file the rivets down a bit? I also ordered and used Microset and Microsol for the first time to do it, from the same company I ordered Krystal Clear too and glazed the windows.

Mightily impressed with how they look, very happy. I like the gloss look so much that I'll do some of my previous builds with it too. Also this has nothing to do with Hornby re-introducing gloss engines. I noticed other manufactures jumping on the band wagon but its just good timing I guess. I'm not a fan of the standard dull finish of RTR engines anyway, not for a spanked up loco.

I added the backhead
J1 Backhead.png

including the two levers that come with it, Bachmann loco crews (possible dressed incorrectly for late 1800's but oh well) and brake pipes. The front brake pipe according to photographs seemed to come through the running plate so I drilled a hole, clipped the pipe and bent its shape to try to match.

Other than a rear coupling, worksplates (from guild plates?? Help?) and a few pipe run details it is complete. The cab inside has rough sides as I made a monumental balls up. Basically I thought, "Well, I know that these handrail pillar holes seem to be 0.9mm's consistently so lets drill them out."

*Drills them out*

"Hmm, look good!"

*Checks photographs*

"FUUUUUUuuuuu!!!!!!!"

*What a plonka, they should be small 0.45mm holes not requiring pillars*

And so I had a right job dancing with the glue, anyway, please enjoy the pictures. I only used 2 out of the 5 chimneys but you just plonk in what you like.

FR J1 - DONE 0 Cab.png

FR J1 - DONE 0.png

FR J1 - DONE 1.png

FR J1 - DONE 22.png

FR J1 - DONE 3.png

FR J1 - DONE 4.png


I also have done a quick YouTube video and it shows footage of it running on my small layout. :) Hope you like it.

I still need to finish off the different chassis', write the instructions and make them available so I ask your patience for those if you want a J1. However, everything else is available now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzo7o3OVy0w

Comments & questions encouraged, good or bad. Knux out.
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Last edited by Knuckles on Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

https://www.sparkshotcustomcreations.com/
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Furness J1 Class - Complete!

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:54 pm

That looks very nice, just 50 years to early for my layout period.
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Philip Hall
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Re: Furness J1 Class - Complete!

Postby Philip Hall » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:15 pm

A lovely little engine; the running seems very smooth. Congratulations.

Re the pickups on leading and trailing axles: perhaps spring the axle downwards with wire, and add seperate pickups from coiled .3mm brass wire bearing on the flanges at 90 degrees. These have been seen on here in a few places already. A few coils render the pickup pressure very light, and being at right angles to the flange means there is no resistance to up and down movement of the wheelsets.

Philip
Last edited by Philip Hall on Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Knuckles
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Re: Furness J1 Class - Complete!

Postby Knuckles » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:22 pm

Thanks you two :)

I have thought about those coil pick ups a few times so might indeed try them. I was thinking of using a spring pushing downwards on a bush or washer with flanges positioned centrally on the axle, rather than rubbing the axle itself. Something needs doing though.

On the whole it runs smooth but due to the rod issues I had it isn't as good as some of my others. Really need to get the etches made and then things can hopefully take a good jump forward.

The other problem of course is my dodgy track building! It is my 1st attempt at P4 and a few areas of the track really needed redoing as a few loco's have issues over the same areas occasionally. This all comes with practice though, I just keep putting off the areas that need rebuilding as it isn't easy building in situ and I need some heart to take it on.
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