Wheels for GWR 68xx Grange locos

[spencerman]

Hi Everybody

Does anyone know for sure whether they are IL or PB? They are 18 spoke for sure. 5' 8" and all from retired 43xx locos.
The Sharman wheel bible says 43xx and 68xx are IL. However it says Manors 78xx are PB same spoke number and size.
Now AG does a 5' 8" 18 spoke "GWR standard" which is PB. Ultrascale does a 5' 8" 18 spoke GWR which is IL. Their website
says suitable for Manor and Grange, but the Sharman bible says Manors 78xx are PB.
Does any one have a solution for this conundrum, because I know there are lots of errors in the Sharman book 1982 edition?

If all is at should be there is not a Grange wheel available -- RTR wheels perhaps to be machined and AG tyres to be applied maybe???

All input appreciated ( I have bought a MM Grange from David).

[MPR]

The Manors had both types - the locomotives built before the War were true renewals of 43xx - they reused the wheelsets and the motion.

Other components, up to and including the frame sets/cylinders, were retained where serviceable to extend the life of the remaining 43xx in service. This group of 100 locomotives (80 Granges and 20 Manors) would all have had IL wheelsets.

After the war, the batch of Manors 7820-7829 were new builds - and used the later pattern wheels (as used on the later large prairies from new; the built up web and placement of the crank pin between spokes would have been stronger)

Grange construction was not resumed post-war so no Granges entered service equipped with the later wheel type.

However, it is not impossible that later swaps of components changed matters - this has certainly happened with 6880 and 4709, which will both have wheel sets inherited from 5101 class locomotives.

[Noel]

As well as the two varieties of wheel with large central boss, there is also a [presumably earlier?] IL version with a small central boss. In BR days, at least, it was not totally unknown for locos to have a mixture...

Noel

[spencerman]

Thanks very much MPR and Noel for your comprehensive answers. It just might be that my
Grange will have to have a PB (AG) wheelset - let's imagine it had a renewal of wheels......

Philip

[Philip Hall]

I have fitted two Hornby Granges with Alan Gibson wheels on the basis that you can't really see where the crankpin is when everything is whizzing around. Ultrascale wheels would have been nice but for conversions like this we took the pragmatic, possibly heretical approach. My only reservation about this is that the size of the AG bogie wheels usually comes out at about 12.8 mm, acceptably undersized for a worn tyre maybe, but it does look a bit small. Of course their next size up is too big...

Philip

[Bulwell Hall]

This is my rewheeled and upgraded Hornby Grange. I used an Ultrascale conversion set as a straight replacement for the Hornby wheelsets - I think the photo shows quite graphically the improvement in appearence that the Ultrascale wheels make. Dummy frames were added in Plasticard to widen them as described elsewhere by Philip Hall. Other mods included a new front bogie, new cylinders, slide bars, connecting rods and coupling rods, new boiler fittings and a new tender. The tender has an old re-hashed and detailed Mainline body on a Mainly Trains etched brass underframe kit. She is finished as 6830 'Buckenhill Grange' - a bog standard Bristol St Philips Marsh Grange as running around 1950. The essential accuracy of the Hornby model makes such an upgrade worthwhile I think and is worth the effort - oh and she is to EM standards but I think it shows the point!

Gerry

6830 - 1.jpg

[Horsetan]

I have fitted two Hornby Granges with Alan Gibson wheels on the basis that you can't really see where the crankpin is when everything is whizzing around. ....

Actually, this has become prototypically correct because no.6880, the new-build Grange, uses the post-1930 wheel centres - pin between, with adjacent spokes webbed - because these wheels were readily available as spares.

As well as the two varieties of wheel with large central boss, there is also a [presumably earlier?] IL version with a small central boss. In BR days, at least, it was not totally unknown for locos to have a mixture...

One or two of the preserved Manors are running on a mix of small and large boss "pin-on-spoke" wheels. 7819 runs on a full set of small-boss wheels. Two Manors run on the post-1930 pin-between wheel: 7808 and 7822.

In 4mm scale, nobody makes the early small-boss wheel.

[jjnewitt]

The 5' 8" 15" crank throw drivers were interchangable between the Moguls, Granges, Manors and probably the Large Praries. Certainly all four loco classes could be seen with both types though particular wheel types seem to be more prevalant on certain classes. Which type a loco would to a certain extent depend on what was readily available as it went through the works. Complete sets of pin on spoke or pin between spoke were the norm but it wasn't unknown (as Noel has intimated) for a loco to have both types at the same time. Odney Manor from 56 to 59 springs to mind. It's always a fun game trying to guess which type of wheel a Grange or Manor had. One indicator is the balance weights on the non-driven axles. Pin on spoke wheel covered 5 spokes and pin between 6.

So to answer your question spencerman check your prototype.

Then there are the wheel bosses... As Ivan says though there are no wheels out there for the small boss pin on spoke wheel so it's completely academic from a modelling point of view.

Justin

[spencerman]

WOW
thanks everyone for so much information. I guess the answer is heresy but no doubt it will look ok!!!

bifn
Philip

[Horsetan]

Fascinating stuff, the development of the 5'8" wheel. Three versions, all of which can be seen in preservation today!

[steve howe]

I have fitted two Hornby Granges with Alan Gibson wheels on the basis that you can't really see where the crankpin is when everything is whizzing around. Ultrascale wheels would have been nice but for conversions like this we took the pragmatic, possibly heretical approach. My only reservation about this is that the size of the AG bogie wheels usually comes out at about 12.8 mm, acceptably undersized for a worn tyre maybe, but it does look a bit small. Of course their next size up is too big...

Philip

Philip,

Was this a straight re-wheel to the existing chassis with cosmetic sideframes as described in your other conversions?

Steve

[Philip Hall]

Steve,

Yes, a straight conversion using the Hornby chassis and packed out dummy frames. It ran very well so no need to change it. I did thicken up the slidebars (although not by enough, see my 28XX article in MRJ a while back) and also the connecting rods. On the second one I made the cylinders a bit fatter and lowered the buffers on both engine and tender to the correct height. For some reason on the Grange they were too high. On both of them I used the Hornby tenders.

Attached are a couple of pictures, Mark 1 and Mark 2. Gerry has done a more thorough job!

Philip

IMG_1476 adj.jpg

Mark 1

6877 Llanfair Grange.jpg

Mark 2

[steve howe]

Looks superb to me Phil!

One for the project list!

Steve

[steve howe]

Other mods included a new front bogie, new cylinders, slide bars, connecting rods and coupling rods, new boiler fittings and a new tender.
Gerry

6830 - 1.jpg

Gerry,
May I ask whose cylinders and slide bars, con. and coupling rods you used for the Grange?


Thanks

Steve

[jim s-w]

Is it just me or is everything about a Grange horribly out of proportion? Not that the model is in any way wrong but the whole thing just looks a complete mish mash of completely unrelated bits.

Cheers

Jim

[DavidM]

Jim,

I think beauty is in eyes of the beholder! I find the Grange well-proportioned and balanced, more so than either a Manor or Hall. I prefer Churchward & Collett tenders to those that followed. And I find Dukes and Dukedogs the essence of graceful perfection...

Each to their own!

David

[Bulwell Hall]

Other mods included a new front bogie, new cylinders, slide bars, connecting rods and coupling rods, new boiler fittings and a new tender.
Gerry

6830 - 1.jpg

Gerry,
May I ask whose cylinders and slide bars, con. and coupling rods you used for the Grange?


Thanks

Steve

Steve

I used Comet cylinders, coupling rods and connecting rods. I made up the slide bars myself as the Comet slidebars are wrong (too close together) - there may be a problem in sourcing replacement crossheads as I was able to use a pair salvaged from a scrap etch for the Mitchell 53xx Mogul kit. Another replacement which really transformed the look of the engine was a new front buffer beam - I made one up from 10thou Nickel Silver, properly rivetted and made to the correct depth, and set the buffers at the correct height. All Hornby locomotives seem to be compromised at the front end to accomodate the hideous automatic couplings - the buffer height is raised and the depth of the buffer beam reduced to the detriment of the appearence of the engine.

I would agree that the Grange is the least attractive of the GWR 4-6-0s and it looks like a 'bitza' because that is pretty much what it is! I tend to think of them as enlarged Moguls - they certainly don't have the same appeal as a Churchward Mogul but they were an essential part of the scene.

Gerry

[Horsetan]

Is it just me or is everything about a Grange horribly out of proportion? Not that the model is in any way wrong but the whole thing just looks a complete mish mash of completely unrelated bits.

It helps to think of the "Grange" as a "Hall" on smaller wheels....

[dal-t]

jim s-w wrote:
Is it just me or is everything about a Grange horribly out of proportion? Not that the model is in any way wrong but the whole thing just looks a complete mish mash of completely unrelated bits.



It helps to think of the "Grange" as a "Hall" on smaller wheels....

I just try to think of the 'real' thing, because I believe it's a scale issue. 4mm models do look wrong to me (same feeling that Jim has), 7mm less so, but 12":foot examples always looked 'just right' for mixed traffic machines, low-slung and mean with heavy hints of slugging hauling power. It's just a pity they were Green With Rivets - but you can't have everything ...

[Horsetan]

.... pity they were Green With Rivets - but you can't have everything ...

Wait 'til you model Great Southern. They loved rivets.

[Craig Warton]

I have found it interesting to note the comments about proportions. To me, the Grange has the best proportions of any of the modern GWR locos. In NSW (Australia), most of the more modern passenger steam had 5'9" driving wheels and a reasonably large boiler so the beefy lines of the Grange sit nicely with me. Perfection is a Duke with a narrow cab and 2500 gallon tender!

The Grange models above do show how good modern RTR can be - especially if you are prepared to do some work on them to improve the less desirable bits. Fixing the front buffer plank and adjusting the buffer height improves things no end.

Craig W