class 15xx pannier tank (with a bit of 97xx thrown in)

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jim s-w
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class 15xx pannier tank (with a bit of 97xx thrown in)

Postby jim s-w » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:10 am

Hi all

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_1500_Class

These appeal to my liking of all things ugly, they look strikingly similar to the 94xx class with regards to the cabs and tanks. Any thoughts on weather of not a hacked up Lima 94xx would be a viable way to go?

TIA

Jim
Last edited by jim s-w on Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Philip Hall
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:38 am

Looking at Russell pages 226-228 I think it would be a pretty serious hack, Jim. The cabs and bunkers are different (lower and shorter, different shaped bunker on the 1500), the firebox is shorter on the 1500, ditto the side tanks. Then there's probably no option than to build a new chassis, which also has to carry the front buffer beam and all that lovely exposed plumbing!

I always thought that someone did a kit for one of these (Falcon Brass?) which would give you a start. This is probably one of those few engines which really only looks 'right' in P4 (Bulleid's Q1 is another) because with no running plate, everything is so exposed.

Philip

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Noel
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Noel » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:44 am

The cab and bunker are similar but the bottom of both is higher above the ground on the 15XX, Jim, as both are less deep [top to bottom] and the tanks are deeper and shorter [front to back], and of bigger capacity, on the 15XX. The smokebox saddle is different, because of the outside cylinders. The wheelbase is shorter and the frames are deeper. The boiler is the same [standard no. 10], and so far as I know, so is the firebox therefore.

Like the 94XX they are 'red' restriction engines, which limited where they could go, and they were not popular on the main line because the short wheelbase made them unstable at anything other than low speed.

Noel
Regards
Noel

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jim s-w
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby jim s-w » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:52 am

It's the chassis that would be the sticking point. The body would be no worse than a typical diesel or multiple unit razor saw job I reckon.

There's nothing on the falcon list for these and ironically I'm sitting here looking at one of their wagon kits. Not sure I'd want t do a loco if it's designed the same way TBH!

Cheers

Jim

MPR
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby MPR » Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:36 pm

Modern Outline Kits are proposing a 15xx in 7mm. I wonder if a 4mm version would be viable? It is certainly one I'd like to build.

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Simon Glidewell
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Simon Glidewell » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:31 pm

Keyser used to do a white metal kit of the 15xx and these can be tracked down on Ebay occasionally. Wills also did one:-

http://www.ehattons.com/72920/Wills_Kit ... etail.aspx

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jim s-w
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby jim s-w » Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:14 pm

Thanks Simon.

The one you linked to is on a hornby chassis which if I can find out what it is might be handy.

Cheers

Jim

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Simon Glidewell
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Simon Glidewell » Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:07 pm

jim s-w wrote:Thanks Simon.

The one you linked to is on a hornby chassis which if I can find out what it is might be handy.

Cheers

Jim


Hello Jim,

It wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't a modified BR Standard chassis or Ivatt. If it is (an email to Hattons "might" reveal the true answer about it) then something like a Bachman BR Standard might be the way to go with the correct diameter wheels? Something like this with simplified and modified valve gear:-

http://www.mremag.com/news/article/bach ... -829/11435

This publication currently on Ebay might be useful too:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/THE-PANNIER-P ... 1191585691

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Simon Glidewell
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Simon Glidewell » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:26 pm

There's a secondhand Bachmann Ivatt for sale at Hattons:-

http://www.ehattons.com/99215/Bachmann_ ... etail.aspx

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grovenor-2685
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:43 pm

There's a secondhand Bachmann Ivatt for sale at Hattons:-
But rather a lot to pay for an incorrect chassis! IMHO much of the character of the 1500 comes from the short wheelbase, putting a significantly longer chassis in destroys that, as can be seen in the eBay example. Alan Gibson has the frames as item LM1-244.
Regards
Keith

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jim s-w
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby jim s-w » Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:09 pm

Thanks Keith

Jim

Sandra Orpen
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Sandra Orpen » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:33 pm

As far as I know only Keyser produced a kit for the 1500 pannier tank. I don't think Wills ever produced a kit for this locomotive. The one for sale by Hattons looks like a Wills 9400 class body, without the footplate, mounted on some type of proprietary chassis.

Probably the best way to get one is to try and buy a Ks kit on ebay and to scratch build a chassis for it. Of course this locomotive now represents one of the few gaps in the ready-to-run market, particularly for locomotives built by British Railways and therefore it is possible that one of the suppliers will produce a model of it. After all there are plans for someone to produce the slightly similar USA tank.

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Simon Glidewell
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Simon Glidewell » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:41 pm

Hello Sandra,

There's a photo of the K's kit built up here:-

http://www.gwr.org.uk/galmeadows1.html

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Horsetan
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Horsetan » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:58 pm

MPR wrote:Modern Outline Kits are proposing a 15xx in 7mm. I wonder if a 4mm version would be viable? It is certainly one I'd like to build.


I e-mailed Dave Sharp at MOK a long time ago about the possibility of a 4mm scale etched 15xx kit, especially if some of it could be shot down from a 7mm design. Whilst he was open to the suggestion (and probably just to humour me), I get the feeling that MOK won't be doing anything in 4mm for a good long while, if ever. Their redesigned 08 diesel shunter kit in 4mm, which was proposed in 2011, has quietly died a death.

Pity, really. MOK is good quality stuff, but just not in 4mm.

The old K's kit goes for very silly money on eBay (nothing under a hundred quid) on the very rare occasions - only once in the last year - that it surfaces. I still have a valve gear fret and cylinders from it, which were bought as spares from W&H before it closed down.

The 15xx BTW shared its boiler and firebox (a Standard no.10) with the 94xx and the Collett Goods. Its smokebox was, however, shorter. Tanks and cab also differed as described earlier. I have picked up a secondhand Lima 94xx to assess just how much hacking would be needed - as far as I understand it, the boiler, smokebox and firebox can be separated from the tanks, cab and footplate.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

David Knight
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby David Knight » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:27 am

FWIW: There is an article on creating a 15XX from a Collett boiler and 94XX cab and tanks in the first issue of Finescale Railway Modeling Review. The subject loco is in 2mm scale but there may be food for thought.

Cheers,

David

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Horsetan
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Horsetan » Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:10 am

This is how the old Lima 94xx breaks down into its main sub-assemblies.

The cab, tanks and boiler separate from the footplate, and the smokebox and saddle separate from the footplate. The water tank fillers can be pulled out, as can the tank vents, whistles, handrails and rather crude stanchions.

The chassis is about as much use as a chocolate teapot, though the motor might be reusable in one of the contemporary diesel bogies, and anyway the wheelbase is more applicable to the Gresley J50.

grovenor-2685 wrote:.... Alan Gibson has the frames as item LM1-244.


When I asked Alan about these many years ago, he said they were for the early 1500s (i.e. 19th century) built at Wolverhampton on a 7'3 x 8'3" wheelbase, not the Hawksworth design, so the AGW frames would be completely wrong.
Attachments
WP_20150106_002[1].jpg
Stripdown 2
WP_20150106_001[1].jpg
Lima 94xx stripdown
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Horsetan
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Horsetan » Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:20 pm

Looking at the Lima bodyshell again, it occurs to me that there are subtle differences in the cabside and bunker shapes as well. The 15xx cab and bunker shape seems more akin to a Collett pannier cab.

Compare this.... (15xx)

....with this. (94xx)
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Noel
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Noel » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:16 pm

I'm not sure that the cab is different [apart from the shorter side sheeting], but the extended part of the bunker is definitely shorter in the 15XX, altering the relationship of its inward curve to the bufferbeam to the cab opening. Incidentally, looking at these two pictures has made me wonder whether the smokebox is actually shorter, or just has the blastpipe, and hence the chimney, further forward?

Noel
Regards
Noel

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Horsetan
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Horsetan » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:02 am

The cabside opening is noticeably different, Noel. Look at the curve of it.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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jim s-w
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby jim s-w » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:11 am

I was just going to say that! ;)

I'm going to do a 'normal' 94xx first but if anyone comes across a another cheap Lima one please let me know

Jim

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Horsetan
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Horsetan » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:36 am

jim s-w wrote:...I'm going to do a 'normal' 94xx first but if anyone comes across a another cheap Lima one please let me know.


Nothing under £20 on eBay at the moment, Jim. That's how much mine cost, and the first thing I did was throw the bottom half away!

Comparison with drawings in the Russell book suggests the Lima body has been stretched in places to fit the incorrect 7'3" x 9'0" chassis that Lima shoved into it. Going to need very careful hacking. I think someone suggested that it would look well on a High Level Pannier chassis (even though the latter is meant for the 57xx/8750)....
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Tim V
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Tim V » Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:51 am

Bernie Baker did a very nice conversion of the Lima loco. He altered it and put it onto a Bachman 57 chassis. Quite a lot of extra detailing later it made a convincing model.
Tim V

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Noel
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Noel » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:21 am

Horsetan wrote:The cabside opening is noticeably different, Noel. Look at the curve of it.


Yep. 0/10 for observation to me. I was concentrating on the opening in front of the door [which is difficult to compare given the different angfles of shot] and completely missed the considerable difference behind the door opening,,,



Noel
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Noel

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Horsetan
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Horsetan » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:26 am

It might be easier to sketch out new cabsides for the 15xx than to try and fill in parts of the existing 94xx shape.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Andy W
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Re: class 15xx pannier tank

Postby Andy W » Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:44 am

I think there comes a point where bashing existing models becomes more work than actually scratch building. A model of this prototype would be worth it though - wonderfully charming in its ugliness.
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