LRM - LNER D17

[DougN]

Seems I am a bit of a glutton when it comes to loco kits... there is a bit of a story for this loco involving order for people and then owing other people then a well travelled kit.... So he is at it again. Yes I am now the proud owner of a LRM/ ex stephen Barnfield LNER D17 or NER M or Q class. what do you get in the box :-

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Unfortunately there are some thing missing in the way of castings and buffers but no doubt LRM will post those out to me after a nice email.

So far I have read through the instructions and started on the tender. One thing I will be doing as I have done on all the previous tenders was to spring them with a system similar to Dave Bradwell's with a keeper plate drilled for the bearing and a Phosphor bronze spring bearing on the underside of the tender chassis. Then I oval the holes in the side frames and have the tender sprung.

I am not sure about how the loco should be set up at the current point in time. The bogie does need to do some steering and take some of the weight for decent running. This is the second 4-4-0 the first one didn't get very far with the ancient Comet D49 chassis and some compensation. It was a real hybrid that never really got any where near running... one day it may be taken from its resting place and turned into a "Runner" but when is the question.

I have doena bit on the tender with the inner frame, buffer beam and drag beam all fitted. I think I will have to set up the tender frames next... which might take a bit of scratch building as I would like to use the above springing but it is a pain with the breakgear.... (Reminds me I promised myself I would complete the Q6's tender which needs some TLC for running purposes!

More photos will come I promise

[DougN]

Well for the last couple of days it has been the long weekend... well it is if you take Monday off.. then Melbourne cup day. I managed to sit down and do some work on the D17... the body goes together quite nicely but I struck a problem in that the cab insert is about 1mm over width! So Stoped there yesterday and built up a Craig Welsh wagon chassis and a Cambrian wagon kit. I will grab some photos soon to see the result!

[Horsetan]

Doug: will you be having a go at compound no.1619?

[DougN]

Nahh,

It is a nice kit and it is going together quite nicely and quickly. Steve Barnfield did a good job. The instructions need a little bit of tickling to use consistent description and part numbers. I do like a number of the tab and slot construction aids. I will have to take a few photos... I just don't seem to have the camera, loco, and computer all in the same place at the same time and remember to do it . I am leaning towards a Q with the clerestory roof in Green livery towards the late 1920's. Why because I have not done a green loco! This reminds me I better get a email off to Alan Gibson for a few wheels for the beast! Along with another to Chris Gibbon to get another couple of gearboxes and a motor or 2!

One thing I am struggling with is the bogie to the loco as the instructions refer to a kit from Perserverance but I believe they are gone! I do have two of their Compensated bogie kits to build into the bogie. The rest should be quite straight forward.

[DougN]

Well finally camera, time, and me being in the same place at the same time today! lets start yeasterday though... I was asked nicely to do a demonstration at a exhibition yesterday, unusually fro me I almost got nothing done in 8 hours! Cab roof, and part of a perseverance bogie! So today I sat done again after pulling everything out of a suit case I use to take things to the exhibition with me.... I though I would have a go at the 0-4-0 section on the Avonside jig. In between raiding all the bits and pieces I have been squirrelling away for years... I had to find a single set of hornblocks and guides.... 30 minutes latter MJT bearings and old fret of Perseverance etc found! (success I said to myself and changed the CD... to Billy Joel storm front) Stephen Barnfield did the original design of the kit he suggested using the old percy bits... luckily I had the bits to do it!

So to the Avonside Jig... set using the con rods... ummm the rods are a semi loose on the little pins.... (here I said I would like my own lathe... mutter mutter) but not that loose I think I can use this to my advantage Not being so tight is actually slightly better.
On to the next stage... fixed axle in... seems to be OK... solder everything from the front... take out chassis turn over.... ummm this thing seems to be working... Now the percy bits... Ahhh now I see a problem... no matter always another way to skin the cat... slid the tight bearings up the jig all seems parallel still and solder up... repeat on other side ....must admit none of the fluffing about with the fences and fingers.... couldn't be bothered... still every thing seems to line up.... Assembled the spacers onto a chassis side... remember no tags over length of the side thickness... otherwise everything goes screwy. Ummm all OK. On to the next bit.. slid off, back on solder other side to spaces... everything seems fine... So next problem what Gear box will fit... I have a DJH GB1 and another... manufacture unknown so I slid the chassis up the jig and tried each Gear box in position to see what will fit

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I think that gear box is a High level.
Now to the DJH.... it will only fit on the front axle

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This will not work as I decided to compensate the chassis... Yes I would spring but I think as it is the first 4-4-0 I have done it should be the KISS principal

So I have decided to try another of the high level gearboxes and a Mashima motor.

Any how this is how the rest of the body looks

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heres one with the tender. I have a couple of issues with the tender as it shouldhave a step in the coping to the tops of the sides a'la Dave Bradwell's So I think some scratch building might be in order to to make the bits do what Dave's does with 6 peices out of the 4 I have and some 5thou brass. I may get some time this week to have a go at this!

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[Jol Wilkinson]

Hi Doug,

I think this is the best way to do it with compensation with a fixed rear axle (apologies to those that have seen this before and for the leading driving wheels being off the rails). This uses a LRM 50:1 motor mount and gears. The fascination with HL and other multiple gear motor mounts means that the simple approach is often overlooked.

The motor could have been lower at the front, but at this angle gave sufficient clearance under the cab floor. The spacer supporting the motor also provided the mounting for the front axle pivot beam.

Jol

Precursor frames 4.JPG

[DougN]

Thanks Jol,

Sorry for the late reply, life has got in the way of modelling! I am tending to agree with you Jol and I have gone and had a look at what I have in my storage draws. I may actually go the way you have suggested. I have the ultrascale 50:1 gears already but no spare motor! I need some motors and 'boxs for a few locos at the moment. (still have a J24 and a J21 to get into)

Once I have sent off the orders thing might move forward again!

[Horsetan]

Having recently unearthed a resistance soldering unit (which appears to be LRM), I'm almost tempted to plug it all in and start burning some holes......

[DougN]

Yes it is one of those challenges to sit down and have a play with the RSU. Mine is sitting under the desk. Since the temp controlled iron I have not pulled it out for any thing. Must apologies for the lack of progress things have happened but spare time is short. I was going to do some later this morning. I'll see if there is enough done to report on. I am also waiting on a delivery from LRM and Alan Gibson. Seems this Warley thing gets in the way. So in the next week I should have the wheels and motor. I wonder if the loco will get finished over the Christmas holidays? I am not sure if that will be the quickest build for me. I have also been navel gazing thinking about a p4 layout... I will need some where to run all this stock I have been building.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Doug,

keep your RSU on the bench, alongside the soldering iron base unit. That's what I have done so it becomes second nature to use it when appropriate.

Jol

[Natalie Graham]

What does an RSU do that a soldering iron doesn't? I can't think of a soldering job where either the iron or a small torch didn't do the job perfectly satisfactorily so what am I missing?

[David B]

What does an RSU do that a soldering iron doesn't? I can't think of a soldering job where either the iron or a small torch didn't do the job perfectly satisfactorily so what am I missing?

I find my RSU invaluable for adding detail, especially small, fiddly bits like lamp irons, and anywhere where localised heat is needed. It is also very useful for overlays. The probe is like another finger holding the workpiece that you can leave in place after the heat is off until the solder sets. The RSU makes a very clean job because you tin the piece first and add no more solder. I made a small cattle wagon recently where all the strapping needed adding as did many parts for doors like catches and hinges. It was one of the cleanest and neatest kits I have made and I was quite sorry to cover it in paint. It needed hardly any cleaning up at all.

There are other situations which duplicate what can be done with an iron, but with practice may be done better with the RSU. Heat from the probe is applied only briefly so does not spread, useful if you have other soldered pieces nearby. A torch can apply more heat more quickly and even more widely than an iron and in my experience is the best tool for unsoldering a kit unless you are very skilled in making jewellery.

The RSU is a tool that is, like other tools, a very good one for some jobs. You can achieve a lot with a hammer, but you get better results with more appropriate tools and it is the same with a soldering iron and the RSU.

[DougN]

I have used the RSU for specific things. My unit which was from Blue Rink when Roger Howell was alive. Is great as it has a switch to dial up or down the amount of heat so is a little different to the LRM models. Also the wire on the probe drives me nuts as it is very thick and annoyingly inflexible. The result is a number of broken carbons due to falling off the edge of the desk too easily Maybe as I have said I should drag it out again have another go. One job that it did achieve was a 1mm x 1mm to the bottom of the die block on my b1 which still needs to be finished off when I folded every thing the wrong way round. Still don't know how I would have soldered it back together without the RSU.

[Andy W]

An RSU is invaluable in building anything with metal overlays. I've screwed some cup hooks into the edge of my workbench so I can hang the probe off them when they're not on use.

[ArthurK]

Jol

Can you explain the chassis construction. The earlier photos appear to show the driving wheel unit as a separate 0-4-0 whereas your later photo shows frames extending the full length. Which is correct? Or am I misreading the photos?

ArthurK

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jol

Can you explain the chassis construction. The earlier photos appear to show the driving wheel unit as a separate 0-4-0 whereas your later photo shows frames extending the full length. Which is correct? Or am I misreading the photos?

ArthurK

Arthur,

the photo I posted is of a LNWR Precursor, to show the approach I normally adopt for powering/compensating 2-4-0s/4-4-0s.

The loco in question has a Brassmasters body and tender but as I don't like the "swinging front frames" that BM use for the chassis I etched a set of frames based on the design I did for John Redrup's LRM Precursor Tank 4-4-2T.

I've never built a Steve Barnfield/LRM M/Q 4-4-0 that Doug is doing, so don't know how it goes together. However, I've just started on a NER G1/LNER D23 that I also designed for LRM and that has a very similar chassis to the Precursor, with a sprung bogie.

Jol

[ArthurK]

Jol

Thanks for that. I thought I was missing something.

The Barnfield design looks a little strange.

ArthurK

[Horsetan]

....when Roger Howell was alive. ....

OT, but was he the bloke I met when I came over? The one with the Great Western EM oval layout? If he was, I had no idea he'd passed....

[DougN]

Your right Horse, Poor Roger passed away about 3 years ago now. The GWR layout of Charlbury also went a number of years ago which was sad as Roger went down hill as soon as the layout went. IT was a lovely layout and a number of things continue from that layout, I have a 45xx which Roger built to convert to P4 for David Clift.The trees are on another Vic Fine scale groups layouts, the buildings are heading for another. It is a little sad that we have lost about 1 member a year for the last couple of years. The one thing that all of the people who have passed away proves to me that the Hobby and interests, keep the mind active which seems to stave off the Grim Reaper.

There is a lot of chatter on this list at the moment and I have not done any modelling since last week. I am still waiting for the packages to turn up in the mail but have been laid out by a bit of exhaustion... though I have to look forward to a few weeks off over christmas. The one thing that I am not sure about is the back head of the boiler as I have yet to figure out if I am missing some thing from the kit or not. I have made some other back heads so I may use one of those in lieu. I could also play around with a few bits from the spare box which started out from Dave Bradwell from either the J27 or the Q6.

No matter how much I disliked the articles in the mags " X wasn't included in the kit and I took it from my spares" I now find that I am doing just that but I do at least acknowledge the original source!

Well I will see if I can do some modelling tonight. (it will still be nice and warm in the house as it was to be 36 today!)

[Horsetan]

Your right Horse, Poor Roger passed away about 3 years ago now. The GWR layout of Charlbury also went a number of years ago which was sad as Roger went down hill as soon as the layout went. IT was a lovely layout and a number of things continue from that layout, I have a 45xx which Roger built to convert to P4 for David Clift.The trees are on another Vic Fine scale groups layouts, the buildings are heading for another. It is a little sad that we have lost about 1 member a year for the last couple of years. The one thing that all of the people who have passed away proves to me that the Hobby and interests, keep the mind active which seems to stave off the Grim Reaper.

Thank God I still have the photos of that layout.

There is a lot of chatter on this list at the moment and I have not done any modelling since last week....

But that's what lists are for!

[Mike Spence]

OT

Hi Ivan & Doug,

Coincidence is that I am planning a model of Charlbury prior to Great War. I have most of the models I require and have been gathering any photos that come up for sale over the last 10 years.

I urgently need any help I can get as to the layout and particularly the Oxford end, signal box, goods shed and sidings etc.

Any photos and info you have would be greatly appreciated.

Mike Spence

[DougN]

Mike I am sorry to say that I don't think I have any of the layout as built by Roger Howell. I can ask around and see what is held in the repository of the Vic finescale group. I know that the buildings are in store some where I will see if I can track something's down for you. Knowing Roger there may be a folder some where with just the information you are chasing. Give us a while to track it down!

[Mike Spence]

Mike I am sorry to say that I don't think I have any of the layout as built by Roger Howell. I can ask around and see what is held in the repository of the Vic finescale group. I know that the buildings are in store some where I will see if I can track something's down for you. Knowing Roger there may be a folder some where with just the information you are chasing. Give us a while to track it down!

Thanks Doug, really appreciated. Any financial costs will obviously be met.

Best wishes,

Mike

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jol

Thanks for that. I thought I was missing something.

The Barnfield design looks a little strange.

ArthurK

Arthur,

it looks as through the chassis has a pivoting front frame and bogie unit. I think that Steve Barnfield designed the chassis some years ago, when it wasn't uncommon to assume that a number of kits would be built to 16.5mm gauge to run on fairly tight curves, which this approach will accommodate. The Brassmasters LNWR 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 chassis design is the same, the latter kits going back quite a long way.

The early LNWR Precursor Tank 4-4-2 from LRM used a Brassmasters chassis with this approach. I modified mine slightly with a centralising wire spring between the main and the front swinging frames, which works satisfactorily. It also has a sprung loaded trailing pony truck. When I designed a new chassis for LRM I used the sprung bogie design from the LNWR Jubilee 4-4-0 and added a proper radial truck to the rear.

I think that the D17 chassis will work okay, but it may benefit from a centralising spring to give some front end control.

I think that chassis design has developed in recent years to provide somewhat more sophisticated results, including the inclusion of radial trucks, sprung bogies and even CSB's.

Jol

[ArthurK]

I think that chassis design has developed in recent years to provide somewhat more sophisticated results, including the inclusion of radial trucks, sprung bogies and even CSB's.

Jol

It was my original intention to add a CSB (builder's choice) in my D20. Now I am not saying it cannot be done but space at the back end is at a premium and I decided not to pursue that line. Instead I opted for compensation beams for the driving wheels. With the CG ahead of the beam pivot a proportion loco weight is transferred to the bogie which is fully compensated. This dispenses with the need for a bogie spring. I have used this approach a number of times. It works well. The motor needs its own fulcrum to work properly.

But then someone will want to add a CSB!

ArthurK