The Great 3F build off

Lindsay G
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Lindsay G » Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:55 pm

'Fraid I can't beat these elapsed times between purchase and action, hope I never do, but do hope I live long enough to have been able to.

Back to the build of the 812, it's all a bit late for the model under construction but I question whether these 4 layers are needed. The brass tube seems to be over the top - the "wrapper", as the instruction refers to it, is a boiler just ready to be rolled and then all that is needed to complete it is a strip of scrap along the join and then the 2 smokebox overlays. I find it hard enough to sweat that number of pieces together. Add a thick brass tube under that lot and the soldering iron really would need to be replaced by a blow torch. All subsequent boiler details would also be harder to fit.

Having said that, I haven't sat down and read all the instructions in detail so I may be overlooking some pertinent point. I'm also assuming that the "wrapper" is sufficiently wide to form a complete boiler once rolled (I'll not get into the πD calculations this early in the day).

Lindsay

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:09 pm

Lindsay,

The brass tube forms a foundation for the wrapper which includes the firebox and is pre-formed to some extent and just needs finishing. As to the use of a torch, the instructions do suggest that as an option. The wrapper is indeed big enough to do the job, in fact I found I had to trim a couple of mm off to get things to butt together.

This procedure with the tube is not uncommon as Mark's Maygib (Gibson) and Neil's LRM both have brass tubes as formers for the boilers. It may have something to do with weight as the brass does add a bit of heft to the whole thing and I will still need to add some lead to bring mine up to scratch. Perhaps some of the designers would like to add a comment here? I know the sole example of Korean brass left over from my HO days is just sheet metal in the boiler but then the boiler (a CPR N2 Consolidation 2-8-0) is tapered so the tube wouldn't have been of much use.

Cheers,

David

Julian Roberts
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Julian Roberts » Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:36 pm

David

I'm glad those pix helped. 'Fraid others will have to answer the question of the power of the soldering iron at your voltage. Best of luck getting it all put together nicely, look forward to progress reports. Jim has always been very helpful when I needed this and that so I ought to have thought of asking him the questions I had.

Regarding kits waiting to be built, unlike many modellers I have few waiting for the roun tuit in my drawers. But with so many kit makers having disappeared I wish I had bought more while they were there. The people who now have Falcon Brass promised me a CR 0-4-0T pug for Christmas 2012 - nothing doing so far. A Falcon kit I did buy had beautiful turned boiler fittings. But a SR Z class no longer fits into my plans...! Yes I know they may be difficult to put together, but I'm putting off the day of scratchbuilding - though Lindsay is making the process look more and more satisfying in the 782 thread.

Happy New Year!
Julian

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Will L
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Will L » Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:06 pm

davknigh wrote:...I have to wonder, does a 40 watt iron at 115 VAC produce as much heat as a 25 watt iron at 220 VAC?


Assuming they are running on their design voltage they will produce their design wattage which is a good measure of how much heat you'll get out of it,
However run a 240 volt iron on a 120 volt supply and you get a quarter of the design wattage.

Anybody who has tried running a 240 volt travel kettle in America will know the effect.

Will

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MarkS
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby MarkS » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:05 am

Picked up a (Matt Smith) screwdriver as a Christmas prezzie, not sure if it will help me finish my 3F any faster...
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Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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Paul Townsend
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Paul Townsend » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:09 am

MarkS wrote:Picked up a (Matt Smith) screwdriver as a Christmas prezzie, not sure if it will help me finish my 3F any faster...


I had to google this to discover it is Dr. Who's sonic screwdriver.

I am sure Derek Russan should stock these or at least have one with which to open that cupboard in which he stores the currently inaccessible but promised roundtuits

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Tim V
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Tim V » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:57 pm

Matt Smith, what happened to John Pertwee (who had the first one I think)?
Tim V

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MarkS
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby MarkS » Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:05 pm

Derek Russan could also add these handy "Layout Removal Devices" to his lists...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_metal_ ... otostream/

Photographed on Dave Knights layout at GBTS 2010 - read the second comment...
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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Horsetan
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Horsetan » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:41 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:....The people who now have Falcon Brass promised me a CR 0-4-0T pug for Christmas 2012 - nothing doing so far....


For some odd reason, don't know why, I don't think we'll see any resurrected loco kits from that source until at least 2015. The rolling stock re-releases appear to be taking longer than they thought.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Julian Roberts
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Julian Roberts » Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:31 pm

David - "782 for Barnton" is covering pretty well exactly the same ground just now, regarding forming the boiler plus bits and fitting, all a similar CR loco. Lindsay makes it all sound pretty easy
You have the firebox of course (conveniently hidden on the 782), but that can be tweaked to fit and if not absolutely accurate it won't be as noticeable as any poor fitting at the front. I fixed the firebox last once everything else was OK, the firebox front was the last piece of the jigsaw, though I had already used it to get the basic shape of the firebox right.
Lindsay is starting with the sandboxes fixed. You said you've removed yours, to fit them round the boiler. Probably not a lot in it which way round is easier. Instructions say boiler first I think, that's what I did too. But if possible that outer wrapper should fit to the sandboxes not vice versa I'd say (as I mentioned before) - which I didn't do, so had to play around with files and whatnot.

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David Thorpe
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Thorpe » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:42 pm

I bought an 812 kit probably shortly after it was released, and started building it fairly soon after. Then however, job and house moves meant that I put it to one side, and there it remained for some 20 years. I've now resumed work on it. My younger self apparently decided to build the kit as a 652 - I'm not at all sure why, but it is quite possible that he just thought that the cab was prettier than that on the 812. Anyway, he had completed the tender and cab, which was attached to the footplate, and he's also done the boiler and smokebox. He seems to have been rather more skilled than I am today although he had decided to use an RG4 with it and, unfortunately, in order to accommodate it had cut away rather more from the bottom of the boiler than would be considered acceptable nowadays.

I've rebuilt the chassis with CSBs, ditto the tender one, and have retained the RG4 which runs beautifully. I'm concerned, however. about the excess cut away at the bottom of the boiler as the space does seem to be needed by the RG4. I've now drilled the boiler for chimney, etc, and will shortly do so for handrails. I shall then have to deal with the splashers and footplate fittings. Meanwhile, I'm puzzled by the fact that the smokebox door as supplied is just a trifle smaller than the hole in the smokebox front to which I'm supposed to solder it - anyone else come across that problem or have I done something wrong?

DT

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:24 am

Hi David,

I had the same problem and mentioned it to Jim Smellie. It apparently has been a problem with the etch as long as the kit has been in production, I suspect a problem with registration of the original drawings by Rod Neep so it wasn't you. Solutions appear to be shim around the smokebox front, make a new smokebox front (an easier option if you are building the CR version with flush rivets) or make a slightly larger smokebox door. I'm still thinking about it. :?

Cheers,

David

Lindsay G
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Lindsay G » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:38 pm

I've just had a quick look at my kit and there is a recurring theme here. In actual fact, there are errors with both the door and the smokebox front etch. I think David Knight's suggestions are spot on, and the solution perhaps dependent on the era being modelled.

Door : The smokebox door (or at least the door in my kit) is undersized by .14mm and the hinges are slightly squint. If you can live with it, alterations to the etched parts are easy and quicker to achieve. Essdee is making a lovely job of building an 812 presently and is fitting a post-Caley door with outer rim and dogs fitted - don't know the source of this item.

Smokebox : If modelling in the Caley era, the easiest solution is to make another part using the kit part as a template, especially since the handrail knob hole needs repositioned (it should be within the circle of rivets and not amongst them). There are also no holes etched for the lubricators, so best to get them drilled before fitting the part. If modelling post-Caley and need the half etched rivets (one of which you'll have to add yourself), the centre hole can be reduced with some spare brass. Alternatively, on some 812s/652's there was an extra circular rim added to the smokebox to which the door attached and which extended c3" beyond it, so another option for hiding the gap and possibly nearer the prototype modelled.

Lindsay

essdee
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby essdee » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:32 pm

LIndsay, Dave, guys,

I have used the door casting supplied with the 812, but filed off the wonky straps and hinge mounting, adding the detail from narrowed boiler band strip and wire. The door dogs utilise folded boiler band strip, drilled 0.45 and wire soldered in, before trimming back the excess length and filing narrower. Once the dogs were located (I used graph paper with a hole in, to get them symmetrical) and soldered on, they were carefully filed back a shade further.

The door ring started as a disc of brass, soldered to a backing sheet, centre-drilled and the hole then progressively enlarged by drilling and tapered broaching until it fitted the rebate on the rear of the door casting. It was then un-soldered from the backing and fettled up, before soldering to the door casting. I think it is still a shade too wide, so further careful filing back is required; it is temporarily fixed for the photos using double-sided tape. The boiler mountings are sat loose, in the photo here.

BW

Steve
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essdee
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby essdee » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:35 pm

PS. Whoops - I forgot to add, that under-size door wheel (also loose-fitted presently), has been rejected, following exchanges with Lindsay. It is only 2.4mm cf 2.8mm diam, and clearly looks under-nourished - the spoke pattern is also wrong, far too thin. But I know someone who is making a lovely job of fabricating one.............

Steve

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Tim V
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Tim V » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:12 pm

Very neat work (as usual) Steve :thumb
Tim V

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:51 pm

Steve,

Very useful information :thumb I do confess I hadn't noticed the extra ring around the door in any of the pictures I've been able to find as most have been on the internet, in B&W and on scruffy engines. Now that I go back and look more closely..... :oops:

A few questions if I may, what would be the outside diameter of the ring and the thickness of the material used? Very nice work BTW, your tidy soldering puts mine well into the shade, thank goodness for paint :roll:

Cheers,

David

essdee
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby essdee » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:33 pm

Tim, David,

Many thanks for the votes of confidence, gents - always appreciated. What you don't see, though, are any photos of my efforts before I have invested much time with Garriflex, glass fibre and fine emery! I am seriously considering a resistance unit and exploring solder paints to try and reduce the huge time spent on fettling, even after so much practice.....

Door details: the ring is 17.68mm (+ or- 0.02mm, measured midway between the dogs, and utilises 10thou brass. I scribed a ring over-size, cut out with kitchen scissors(!) to a rough octagon, trimmed to a 16-agon, then mounted in a mandrel on the Dremel and carefully filed down to a smooth disc. The final diameter has been judged from photos, while in place on the door, as I have no drawing showing the ring; hence my conviction that I still need to shave a wee bit more off.

That door locking wheel; LIndsay advises me that he has scaled two different types of loco image, and gets 2.65 and 2.72mm diameter - the initial 2.8mm being a tad large. He will be dealing with this further on his Barnton pug thread in due course.

Other door measurements while we are on the topic, based on how this example came out looking 'OK'; the strap hinges (double-thickness boiler band material, wrapped tight around the hinge) were filed down to 0.75 (+/- 0.01)mm, the hinge is 0.45 brass wire; the dogs have ended up between 0.74 and 0.78mm wide, the 'bolts' again being 0.45 brass wire.

The dogs were formed by bending over the last 2mm of a boiler band strip, then butting the resulting 'step' firmly against the door rim, while pressed firmly to the door ring. This caused the upper layer to bend up to follow the door's 'dish'. The upper layer was then trimmed back to overlap the door by about three quarters of a millimetre - eyed from photos - leaving the excess and bend projecting beyond the edge of the door ring. The trusty school compasses then marked the bolt position, at the outer edge of the ring. This was drilled 0.5mm, the material still being full-width boiler band at just under 1mm wide. Wire was inserted through the 'dog', into a balsa block, checked for verticals and soldered 296 degrees (222 would probably do). The resultant mess then had the wire 'bolt' trimmed back, and was generally fettled - but left over-long. When I had six dogs prepared, I arranged them on the ring, the pair adjacent to the hinges first, the remainder by symmetry, and soldered them in place with 145 degree solder. Only then, after fettling, was the excess length projecting beyond the door ring carefully ground away and de-burred.

I mustn't hi-jack the thread, but I hope these details will encourage others to have a go at beefing up the supplied detail in their kit's castings. This is the first of a batch-build of three 812s in P4 (one will be the 652 variant, and with a larger tender), two BR era, once Caley period. In due course a summary of the builds may well appear?

Looking forward to seeing the 3F challenge progressing to completion!

BW

Steve

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David Thorpe
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Thorpe » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:50 pm

Oh dear, extra ring round smokebox door - I hadn't noticed that either, and I've now gone and fixed the smokebox door very securely in position.....Not currently sure how I'm going to deal with that.

Meanwhile, I've come up against another problem and am not sure whether it's of my own making or something to do with the kit. Basically, as I built it 20 years ago the base of the smokebox front extends 1mm below the smokebox saddle - in other words, when the boiler assembly is placed on the footplate with the smokebox front resting on the footplate, there is a 1mm gap between the smokebox saddle/wrapper and the footplate. That is not in itself disastrous as the gap will be concealed by the front splasher, but I'd like to know whether the smokebox front is too long or the saddle assembly too short. If it's any help, with the smokebox front as it is now, the top of the smokebox is 26mm above the footplate.

Meanwhile, I've discarded the RG4 as i can't bear the cut out it requires in the boiler, and have found a RoadRunner Plus in my spares box. I think that should be suitable used in a similar way to how you've done yours, David, as it seems to fit (just!) between the CSBs. Can I ask what motor you used?

DT

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:23 pm

David,

My particular combination is the LoadHauler+ 54:1 and a Mashima 1220. The catch with the LoadHauler+ being it is a bit wider than the RoadRunner+ so I had to use the compact hornblocks on the rear axle. Your Road runner should fit a bit better. The main thing is it works.

My smokebox front is the same as yours but as you correctly point out the wrapper is hidden from view and more importantly the boiler sits level when all the bits are in place with the unadjusted smokebox front.

As for the ring, it all seems to depend on your engine, some had it some didn't, the first clue would be the extra dogs on the smokebox door, if they aren't there you're safe(ish).

Cheers,

David

Lindsay G
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Lindsay G » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:26 pm

by David Thorpe » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:50 pm

Oh dear, extra ring round smokebox door - I hadn't noticed that either, and I've now gone and fixed the smokebox door very securely in position.....Not currently sure how I'm going to deal with that
.

The missing ring isn't necessarily a problem as they were later additions to both 812's/652's and other classes, it just depends on your era and engine modelled. Judging from the images I have immediately to hand about 30% of 812's had a ring added by or in the LMS period. Whilst I have an image of a Class 104 with such a ring in Caley days, this seems to be an exception - in the Caley Livery Book there isn't a single image of a loco with a ring.

Nil desperandum,

Lindsay

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David Thorpe
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Thorpe » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:00 am

Mine is scheduled for the 1950s, I'm afraid, and so may well have had a ring. However, photos of this class in BR days seem to be a bit thin on the ground so it's difficult to tell.

David, thanks for the information. I had rather assumed that the smokebox front was right as if i'd had to cat a mm off the bottom the boiler would then have seemed a little too low, but I couldn't be sure. I'm wary in this instance because there is no indication as to precisely where the boiler/firebox has to fit against the cab. Again, I'm assuming that it'll nearly but not quite touch the rims of the two porthole windows - that appears to be the case in the photos I'm using.

The RoadRunner Plus, incidentally, fits quite happily between the chassis frames with plenty of clearance between it and the CSB fulcrums.

DT

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MarkS
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby MarkS » Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:20 am

I haven't been ignoring my 3F, but other activities in my life have made progress slow.
However, it is coming up on 2 years since Neil, Dave and I started building our respective 3F's so I feel compelled to finish the darn thing...
So, some recent detailing leaves me with a loco body and tender ready for final cleaning and the paint booth, with the loco chassis remaining the last major piece to complete...

P1040870.JPG
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Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:06 pm

Looking good Mark, methinks I need to get my digital extractor :oops: .

Cheers,

David

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MarkS
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby MarkS » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:43 pm

While the loco and tender bodies are visiting the paint shop, I have started to focus on the loco chassis.
Here is where it stands today, and the space between the frames where the cylinders and valve gear reside is... spacious / empty / very obvious!
A bit of vermilion paint makes it more obvious, so some sort of cylinder/valve gear representation is needed. It rolls well, so motor/transmission should be straight forward :lol: ...
However, despite using the high level jig, I seem to have the CSB wire touching the horn guide wings, thus pre-loading them ever so slightly (so the axle will not drop), a careful touch of a file to the top of the guides should take care of that... (although once the body is weighted it may not be relevant.)

I know I'm jumping around a bit with this build, but I find that having painted the loco (which I enjoy), I force myself to get the chassis completed and running, the part I find more difficult.

3F chassis 2.jpg
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Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."


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