The Great 3F build off

essdee
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby essdee » Tue May 22, 2012 9:56 pm

A brilliant idea, guys - all looking good.

Not surprisingly, Mark's S&D 3F caught my eye particularly, and I note the discussion re tender sizes and other S&D variations/characteristics.

I recently rebuilt my 1980s Maygib verison of SDJR No. 63 in 1922 condition, involving a totally new George Norton 2,950 gallon tender, and heavily re-worked chassis (the profile is wrong for many 3F including the S&D ones; should be deeper between the leading pairs of drivers), as well as more detailing. This is how it turned out; sprung as for my 2-8-0s. The Wild Swan 3F monograph was invaluable, and Midland Record had a drawing of the wretched ejector, which as ever had to be scratchbuilt.

Looking forward to your three coming together!

BW

Steve
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nberrington
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby nberrington » Tue May 22, 2012 10:18 pm

Hi Steve - lovely looking loco - what is between the frames?
I have been struggling to find info on the inside motion and bits. Just received the Midland Engines No 2 monograph - which does have a drawing.
To my ignorant eyes, it looks like any other Stevenson valve gear - correct?

Thanks for posting the pictures - setting the bar a tad.

Regards

Neil

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Mike Garwood
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Mike Garwood » Wed May 23, 2012 8:16 am

Steve
That is absolutely spanking! Lovely work, is it going to be seen 'out and about' or has it gone into a private collection. Really impressive.

Mike

essdee
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby essdee » Wed May 23, 2012 11:19 am

Mike, Neil,

Many thanks for the kind words guys - yes, I am fairly chuffed with her! 63 is one of my own, and may even get painted before much longer, when our spare bedroom changes from Highbridge erecting shop to Highbridge paintshop. If my putative Tyning Bridge diorama gets under way this year, she may even be out and about?

Yes Neil, conventional Stephenson motion; all dummy and squeezed judiciously to fit in. The dummy slidebars are a separate assembly, utilising waste NS etched fret, with tops of crossheads and the con rods/piston rods represented - all done 'by eye'. The weighshaft counterbalance weights are slices of tube, drilled to take a spigot on the crank arm, then filled with 245 deg solder and filed to shape. The truncated eccentrics were from the spares box, unsure origin! I like to fill the under-boiler space with gubbins. Just follow the Wild Swan monograph.

Hope the enclosed pics help you see what's what - sorry for hijacking your thread!

BW Steve
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DougN
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby DougN » Thu May 24, 2012 2:31 am

Thanks Steve I particularly like the broken down photo so I can see what you did!

I say that as I suffering from "loco kit collection reduction" at the moment and the Dave Bradwell J26/27 is calling (wallet com back here....) . I built one many years ago now and have a hankering for another with all the skills I have collected over the intervening years. One thing that never satisfied me (no not a Snickers bar) was the gubbins as you put in between the main frames. I believe that now I could do a lot better job of the loco!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Horsetan
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Horsetan » Thu May 24, 2012 9:40 am

DougN wrote:....One thing that never satisfied me (no not a Snickers bar) was the gubbins as you put in between the main frames. I believe that now I could do a lot better job of the loco!


Yes, this time you can make the whole lot work! ;)

I've been looking at whether the cranks and eccentrics from the Finney T9 inside motion kit could be adapted for use in the J27, after going down a dead end with Crottendorf cranks.
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That would be an ecumenical matter.

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45609
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby 45609 » Thu May 24, 2012 9:46 am

I'd just like to add my praise. Steve, the 3F is a gem. Very well done.

Morgan.

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MarkS
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby MarkS » Thu May 24, 2012 5:11 pm

Steve, your 3F is inspirational, I have a lot of work ahead of me.
I have been quietly working on the tender, I'll post photos later when there is something worth looking at.

In the meantime I did a search on "S&DJR #73" and came up with this... http://www.ipernity.com/doc/364457/26350053
Looks like I don't need a lubricator... Also the cab side is different from the earlier batch. (I wonder what else is different?)

(Edited to correct a dead photo link)
Last edited by MarkS on Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

essdee
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby essdee » Thu May 24, 2012 7:44 pm

Mark, Morgan - thanks indeed for your appreciations of 63; Ivan - yes, a wee voice urged me to go the extra mile and make the motion to work - I have seen Tony Miles' Irish jewels at close quarters. But a louder voice said 'life is already too short to build all the other S&D stock I want', so dummy it -and future builds - will remain.

As to No. 73, Mark; yes, the earlier S&D Belpaire rebuilds in ca 1920/21 - came out with panelled cabsides and flush rivetting. The later ones, following the 1922 Redhead Committee report on savings, had the snap-head rivets and no panelling - just a horizontal strip at mid-height. I think all the 62-66 series were rebuilt with panels, and all the 72-76 series with rivetting - but I would need to check. Rear half-splashers also varied, some beaded, the later ones unbeaded (as most LMS, and hence the Bachmann examples?).

Mechanical lubricators appeared later, after my period so I have not nailed down all the variations.

No. 64 appeared ca 1923 minus tender coal rails - though in lined blue livery, like 63, 66 and 62 - will need to check my photo files to be certain about 65... the later rebuilds were plain black, another saving under the Redhead report. All had the burnished brass numerals, although smokebox door numbers came some time in the later 1920s.

I also have the old MPD kit, my last 00 loco build, which is on a back burner (actually switched off!), to become No.64, with its odd rail-less tender. The MPD tender, with cast sides and ends, was a hybrid, neither 3250 nor 2950 gallon dimensions, so has had some butchery.

Incidentally, I am baffled as to the reference to 2,750 gallon tenders for the S&D locos, originating with the Jenkinson and Essery volume, I believe. Milton and Bradley used P.C.Dewhurst's data from pre WWll, he worked for LMS. Wonder if this was a J&E typo?

I will dig around for ca1928 view of No.73 for you Mark; meanwhile here are two shots showing a) how I altered the Maygib frames to suit (I know you have built yours - whoops, sorry); No 63's new chassis is at the top, its old chassis is marked up, ready to become 64's chassis......
and b) how the motion fits between the springing and pickups etc. The sandboxes were too thin, and I made proper brake hangers as well, amongst the carnage...The oil cups are a tad generous, I would use thinner tube next time.

All the best with your builds,

BW

Steve
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essdee
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby essdee » Thu May 24, 2012 8:18 pm

Mark, guys,

A quick check back to S&D 3Fs; I was nearly right re rebuild styles. 62 alone (rebuilt 1923) of the first series received the riveted cabside and plain rear splashers; oddly enough, 72 alone (rebuilt 1925) of the second series reverted to panelled cab and beaded rear splashers! Accountants -1, Highbridge -1?

The official Derby view you have of 73 shows it in plain black livery, as would be expected for a later (Post Redhead) rebuild. It has yet to gain its lubricator between the LHS front and mid splasher. I have not seen any other views of 73 in Belpaire rebuild form during S&D days, I am sorry to say. S&D smokebox door numbers semmed to come a while after the lubricators were fitted, perhaps as late as 1928.

That Casserley view of 73 as 3218 in LMS days has prompted SDRT discussion before; the numerals look hand-painted, and I think the LMS may be also - was this a Highbridge one-off I wonder, and even in LMS red?!?? The only conclusive photos of S&D 3Fs in lined blue livery are of 63 and 64 in the early 1920s. ie just after rebuild. 66 and 65 may well be, but the photos are too dark to be sure. Certainly all the riveted-cab version are clearly in plain black. All became pretty filthy anyway by the late 1920s, sad to say.

Enough (more than) from me; over to you three again!

BW

Steve

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Thu May 24, 2012 9:24 pm

Very useful pics of the inside motion Steve. I may take advantage of your ideas for my engine as the counterweights are quite visible from some angles. I must join the chorus in praise of your work, as Neil said, you have raised the bar!

Cheers,

David

essdee
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby essdee » Thu May 24, 2012 9:49 pm

Thanks David!

Delighted that the pics will be helpful to you. A wee tip for those counterbalances; to save on drill breakages and minimise bad language, file a shallow flat on the circumference of the tube and dimple it (my old school compasses, come in handy at last), to start the drill. Hold the tube steady while you drill through, the first hole will help steady the drill for the far side hole. I only cut the slice of tube off its parent tube when I have drilled the holes, and I only file/grind down to final thickness once I have soldered (245deg) the crank arm spigot into the tube slice. Then fill the slice with either 245 or 188 solder and profile it.

Bear in mind also - for me this is the second time round, building 63; you all should be able to avoid some of the pits I fell into 30 years ago!

BW

Steve

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Tue May 29, 2012 1:43 am

Thanks to Allan Ferguson's drawing I've been able to add the side sheets and boxes to the tender front and have also added the side flare sheet. The main lesson here was that the attachment of the flare sheet took more heat because of the way 3 pieces of brass came together to draw heat away from the iron (flare sheet, tender top, tender side). Also learned, actually more of a reminder, was the effect of cumulative error which I hope I've bodged into submission for now. Next up the beading and coal plate.
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Cheers,

David

Note: I've moved this post over from part 2 of The Great 3F build off section which is now redundant.
PS Many thanks to WebmasterRob who sorted out my picture posting problems!
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David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Tue May 29, 2012 1:59 am

A further update on progress and a comment or two. The beading and tender flare are pretty much under control but not safe for public viewing yet.

I've had a small epiphany which came as a result of offering up the tender frame to the footplate. Despite having followed the instructions to the letter there was no way the frame was going to fit underneath without major surgery. This could be due to a couple of factors; a) the wrong etch was put into the box or, b) the etch was etched the wrong size, or c) a combination of the two. Regardless, the problem is fixable as the wheelbase is still correct, it'll just take a wee bit longer. The point of all this (you know there was one coming) is that problems are not always the builder's fault. A couple of other items that did not fit before and I put it down to my not getting things right, such as the fitting of the coal hole and the tank top, both of which needed to be trimmed to fit but they may have been oversized to begin with.

BTW, thanks to Mark Tatlow for his link to the book on Caley 828.

Cheers,

David

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MarkS
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby MarkS » Thu May 31, 2012 4:28 pm

Some progress at last, the tender shell is coming together...
P1040200.jpg

Also I got out the RSU and added the numbers to the cab sides...
P1040199.jpg

...and started on the tender bulkhead/toolbox over the coal hole.
The very handy scissors is a gift from Neil and is turning out to be a most useful tool for trimming thin brass, especially etching tags.
Thank you Neil!
P1040201.jpg
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

nberrington
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby nberrington » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:50 am

Well I got to work on the footplate of the loco. My 3F wheels are not here yet from Bill, so I jumped to the body.
The valances, buffers and drawbar are not too much trouble, although the buffer beam looks awfully narrow to me.
The cab was however a challenge. So far I've made up two versions. The older version is easier and sits square, while the more "modern" version is a devil to get right. To my eye, it is still off, and I don't think I like the look. Much like Dave, I fear small errors add up to bigger trouble down the line.

Progress:
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Choices, choices ....

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:21 am

Neil,

I've never found "wrap around" cabs attractive (3F, Jinty, NER BTP, etc.) much preferring the "flat roof" style. That's why I like the MR 2F "3130" class but not the 3Fs and probably partially explains why I model the LNWR and not the MR.

At least you've got the option of the earlier cab with the LRM kit.

Jol

nberrington
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby nberrington » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:48 pm

The saga continues, with a few hours in the basement.
At this point I was wondering if I was a bit of a hack, or if the the kit has a few problems.
Time to go slowly and carefully...

The rear splasher top is a tad wide (as evident in photo one.) There is no doubt everything is square, but the top is clearly going to constrict the firebox. It's also not clear to me if the firebox wraps around the etch on the cab front. If it does, then the etch is the incorrect diameter. There seems to be no room for the wrapping if it is the circle the etching.

DSC_0002.JPG
Rather wide splasher top. Puzzling to be sure.


DSC_0004.jpg
Everything looks square, and then still doesn't %$#@*& fit properly!


I spent the best part of my day fettling, fitting and taking time to ensure the boiler sits dead centre. I was hoping to make sub-assemblies, but the cab front is going to make that tricky - we'll see.



The photos also show the narrowness of the buffer. All the pictures I have don't support this appearance. It is however a nice etching, and soldered down solid. I may just leave it.

DSC_0007.jpg
Imposing boiler from this angle! (Test fit number 367 or so)
Note the narrow buffer beam (?!)

nberrington
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby nberrington » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:02 pm

NB soldiering on. I thought I might give a bit of a blow by blow, in case you ever consider building this little fellow. I learned a few lessons.

Soldering brass tube to delicate wrappers:

The firebox and smokebox wrappers were formed in my trusty GW models rollers. (Love this thing - worth every penny!)

DSC_0001.jpg

DSC_0003.JPG


The boiler is supplied a brass tube, with a smidge turned off for the firebox. One has to cut out a slot for the motor and gearbox, and I took as much as I was content to take. At this point I diverted from the instructions. It is recommended one superglues the firebox wrapping to the boiler. I'm not a big fan of that, but realize the heat needed to solder the brass tube might cause other bits to unsolder. I used a few tricks to combat this problem.

1.) During the initial assembly - things like the cab and splashers, I used 165 Degree DCC concepts solder. Hopefully it will be less likely to give than the 145 degree "detailing solder" that follows for the rest.
2.) I drilled a few holes in the tube, to allow for tack soldering from behind (see photo), and then made liberal use of heat sinks .
3.) When soldering on the firebox or smokebox wrapper, I held the boiler in my hand, so as to let me know if it was getting too hot.
4.) Using a resistance soldering unit in short bursts, so as not to melt gigantic holes in the thin brass. (There is a small defect in the smokebox wrapper from over-zealous RSU work.)

All in all the stategy seemed to work, as nothing came adrift.

DSC_0004.JPG
Small holes drilled in boiler for tacking firebox from inside.


DSC_0018.JPG
Heat sink clamps


Boiler Trouble:

I finally decided the firebox simply had to surround the etch on the cab front. When married to the boiler supplied, there is a 0.5mm overlap proximally, which I must assume is to allow for it to fit snugly over the etch. The exercise required some persuasion,but after some microsurgery to the splasher top, it fitted with a satisfying "click".

The test fitting then revealed the next problem - the boiler supplied was about 2.5mm too long. Getting the tube square (having soldered the firebox wrapper on) was a singular challenge, as I couldn't pop it in the lathe to do that. Dremel tool, oversize Swiss files and a circular motion on a piece of sandpaper. (Laced liberally with single malt for the Mk1 Berrington forearm.)

DSC_0009.jpg
Extra-long boiler.


DSC_0014.jpg
Sanding away the excess brass.


DSC_0015.jpg
The ever critical mirror and square.


What it not in the instructions (or the diagrams for that matter), is that the smokebox needs to formed out of a small piece of tube. This happens to be the same size as the boiler. I split the piece with a piercing saw, and then forced it over the distal part of the boiler.

DSC_0011.JPG
Smokebox tube - split with saw, then brute force.


I good deal of checking and sanding is required to ensure the smokebox lands up reasonably square. Eventually it did.

At the end of the day, I am relatively satisfied with my labours, but would have preferred to rather not file, sand and fettle quite so much. Time is better spent detailing, rather than struggling with bits that need a lot of forethought and fiddling. A very British day - watching the pageantry on the Thames, assembling a classic British loco, and a glass (or two) of Dalwinnie.

DSC_0021.jpg
Cab nice and snug.

DSC_0023.JPG
Smokebox seems flush, everything now fits.

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Will L
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Will L » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:21 pm

nberrington wrote:At this point I diverted from the instructions. It is recommended one superglues the firebox wrapping to the boiler. I'm not a big fan of that, but realize the heat needed to solder the brass tube might cause other bits to unsolder.


Sorry, but at the point you did that, what other bits?

Will

nberrington
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby nberrington » Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:58 pm

Good point actually - it was more an issue later on when soldering on the smokebox - I got quite concerned the firebox wrapper might come loose. The other problem is of course the left side wants to come adrift when you solder the right side of the firebox wrapper. Hence the hairclips - and lots of them.

Superglue? Yeuch.

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:55 pm

Some minor moves here. Having never done a tender flare before (or a tender for that matter) I thought it best to do a trial run at filling in the gaps. The kit comes with etched fingers that include a small rebate for the beading, I figured a bit of scrap would do for a test drive so I made the appropriate bends and cuts, got some electrical solder (as recommended by the instructions) and had a go.
testdrive.jpg
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Being reasonably satisfied with the results I went ahead with the actual flare. I plonked on a fair size lump of solder with a bit of flux for good luck and found that I should have done a second or third test drive :oops: Some time was spent cleaning up the excess and I had a second go, this time more sparing with the solder. There are still a few blemishes but I will fill them with gap filling cyano, smooth out and carry on.
Flaredandbeaded.jpg

The beading was straight forward; tin the rebate, tin the wire and tack down with the help of mini clothes-pins and a hot clean iron.

Cheers,

David

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:53 am

Pending the arrival of photographic evidence for the detailing of the upperworks I've gone ahead with the frame of the tender or more specifically the suspension. The tender was designed for compensation so the half etches were there to help guide my progress and there were even some MJT bearings and horn guides to encourage all comers. I had intended to use HighLevel Miniblox but consideration of the complications involved in fretting out the slots and aligning them in the first place made me reconsider. In the end I used the MJT bearings in standard HighLevel horn guides and HighLevel CSB tags. Happily I had an extra set of MJT 2 mm bearings as there are only 2 pair in the normal package.
I started off by soldering the two frames together using the soon to be removed half etched slots as my tacking points. Layout was done using the H/L CSB jig and all holes were marked out and drilled and finally the sides were separated and slots cleared at the same time
Tender frames.jpg
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The horn guides were folded up as per instructions and the MJT blocks test fitted. A quick measure determined that the carrier tags had an inside diameter of 3.5 mm and the bearings an outside diameter of 3.8 mm so some opening up was in order for which I used a conical cutter in a pin chuck.
Horns, bearings, tags.jpg
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Finally the handrail knobs that will hold the springy beams were soldered into their appointed holes in the frame with a 0.5 mm wire holding them in place and alignment at the same time.
Handrail knobs in place.jpg
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I will be using the rear frame spacer for the final support for the wire.

Cheers,

David

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:32 pm

More progress to report. The wheels are on, albeit on a temporary basis until the final tender weight is sorted out. Last time I left you with images of the preparation of the hornguides and their bearings. These are mounted with the aid of a few jigs and holding aids.
adding the hornguides.jpg
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The mini clothespins are from a child's set with minor modifications to the ends and a section of .4 mm wire is used to locate the top registration mark from the CSB jig.

Attaching the frame to the tender body is done in the normal fashion with screws however I found some modifications in order. The rear screw is a standard 8 BA the front screw is a headless shouldered 8 BA that I made up myself as the normal screw was not going to hold the tender drawbar in place and keep the frame in position at the same time. The wheels were added with spacer washers stolen from an old inside compensation unit fret, I will need to add more I think as the frame spacers are for P4/EM and there is too much play but I got carried away with wanting to get something on the rails. Weight will also need to be added to the tender.
wheeled frame in place.jpg
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on the rails.jpg
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Much more still to be done but getting closer a little bit at a time.

Cheers,

David

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:59 pm

A few more bits added as the tender nears completion. I've taken a leaf from Chris Gibbon and Bill Bedford (and doubtless others) and made the brake gear detachable. I've used 0.7 mm wire for the cross links and 1/16" OD tube as a shoulder so the stubs can sit in the holes etched in the frame.
brake rigging.jpg
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I've also added the remaining castings except for the water hatches which are a tad eccentric, I'll turn my own. Handrails and steps have been fitted. Still have to do the tool box but I'm waiting for my book on CR 828 to arrive and give guidance
all so far.jpg
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A cautionary tale. The instructions suggest adding the buffer housings at the end of the job but there's a small problem. The Gibson buffers have a plug in the base which holds the spring in place and guides the tail of the buffer. The plug is 1/8" in diameter, the hole in the buffer beam is much smaller. Opening this up with the buffer beam in situ is not impossible but much trickier than if it had been done in the flat.

Next up the engine frame.

Cheers,

David


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