The Great 3F build off

David Knight
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The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Wed May 02, 2012 9:18 pm

Neil Berrington alluded to this in his G6 Remix thread but in order to fend off personal inertia I'll start it. Simply put Neil, Mark Stapleton and I felt that our kits for 3F type locomotives had "matured" sufficiently (mine for over 10 years) that they really deserved to be built before Bachmann/Hornby came out with an RTR version. I felt quite safe with my choice of prototype, a Caledonian 812 class 0-6-0 (Caley Coaches Kit CL2), but you can never tell with the markets these days now that Dapol have joined the fray. We are going to record our progress having agreed that all three engines will be CSBed but beyond that anything goes.

I'll start with a pic of the frets and bits and then have a careful read of the instructions to determine what extra things need to be ordered to get things going. I have determined one thing so far, nothing shall be removed from the fret before its time as the identifying numbers are all there and some of parts would be hard to identify otherwise. So, here's the pic and stay tuned.

Cheers,

David
Caley 812 class.jpg

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MarkS
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby MarkS » Wed May 02, 2012 9:52 pm

Here is the requisite photo of my entry, a Maygib 3F kit, before pulling the cork so to speak.
My kit is a bit older than Dave's, definitely "Old School" and Bachmann has brought one out!
However, mine will be S&D blue, and I will use CSB's and likely a HighLevel arrangement for power.


3f challenge.jpg
A fully matured brass kit...
3f challenge.jpg (97.63 KiB) Viewed 14163 times
Last edited by MarkS on Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

nberrington
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby nberrington » Thu May 03, 2012 1:25 am

Not too much of an LMS lad, I went a bit more old-school for the real pre-group look. I have a bit of an advantage over Mark and Dave, having acquired a brand new LRM version just to taunt them!
Now I suspect there are a lot of unbuilt 3F's in members cupboards. Feel free to join the fray!

Step 1 - some prep work - and read a book, stare at beautiful etched metal:
Attachments
DSC_0023.JPG
DSC_0021.JPG

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Flymo748
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Flymo748 » Thu May 03, 2012 5:19 am

davknigh wrote:Neil Berrington alluded to this in his G6 Remix thread but in order to fend off personal inertia I'll start it. Simply put Neil, Mark Stapleton and I felt that our kits for 3F type locomotives had "matured" sufficiently (mine for over 10 years) that they really deserved to be built before Bachmann/Hornby came out with an RTR version.

Excellent! I love the comparative builds. What a brilliant idea ;-)

I'll greatly look forward to reading progress.

Enjoy!
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Sun May 06, 2012 6:53 pm

OK, instructions read (twice or maybe three times) and the first parts separated from the frets. In order to do the CSB frames I've had to make up an order for a few more bits so I'm moving ahead with other parts of the kit so as not to lose momentum. The engine and tender footplates struck me as a good place to start as they are independent from the suspended bits, it also seemed a good way get the soldering skills up to speed. All parts have fit together nicely with a minimum of fettling and as evidence I present the following.
top.jpg
Top view of tender and engine footplates

underside.jpg
Underside of same


As an aside, while examining the many brass castings that came with the kit I noticed that the chimney was a tad distorted so I think I'll have a go at turning my own.

That's all for now.

Cheers,

David

nberrington
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby nberrington » Mon May 07, 2012 12:55 am

Well seems Dave's off in a flash.

I've been a tad bogged down - a few nights of call causes the old brain to trundle slowly.

Step one was setting up the Avonside jig. Here I noticed my first major criticism of the kit. The fluted coupling rods are nicely etched, but designed to articulate on the crank-pin. This is of course not correct. The rod should articulate on the knuckle. Scratching of noggin at this point, I wondered if it would be worth the bother to change it. 8' - 8'6" rods would be easy enough to come by.

Next I marked and drilled the CSB holes with the trusty High level jig. First shot I went for the top line, but soon realized that the wire would foul the chassis spacers - I thus dropped them a millimetre to the middle set. The CLAG website has two pre-tested options for the "typical" Midland 0-6-0 wheelbase. I used their values from the second option. I am most grateful for their data.

Progress pics:
Attachments
DSC_0001.JPG
Spotting the drill holes for CSB knobs
Last edited by nberrington on Mon May 07, 2012 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

nberrington
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby nberrington » Mon May 07, 2012 12:57 am

Frames at end of stage 1:
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DSC_0002.JPG

John Palmer
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby John Palmer » Mon May 07, 2012 2:05 am

Particularly looking forward to seeing Mark's S&D Bulldog. 72 to 76 were originally delivered to the Dorset in red livery; don't know whether any acquired the blue livery later. A bit of adaptation to the tender front is going to be needed, as the Gibson kit as supplied doesn't include the right variant.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon May 07, 2012 8:40 am

The rod should articulate on the knuckle. Scratching of noggin at this point, I wondered if it would be worth the bother to change it. 8' - 8'6" rods would be easy enough to come by.

If you decide to change, Bill B does very nice knuckle jointed rods for his 4F chassis kit which are/were available separately.
Keith

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Russ Elliott
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Russ Elliott » Mon May 07, 2012 10:55 am

nberrington wrote:The CLAG website has two pre-tested options for the "typical" Midland 0-6-0 wheelbase. I used their values from the second option.

Ahem: although the plots are 'pre-tested' in the sense the relationships of the spans are correct, I cannot claim that specific fulcrum positions will avoid awkward things like chassis spacers in all or indeed any kits, since most kit designs predate the CSB era. In fact, I'm chuffed there was an plot option found to be suitable in this kit application.

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Horsetan
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Horsetan » Mon May 07, 2012 6:21 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:
The rod should articulate on the knuckle. Scratching of noggin at this point, I wondered if it would be worth the bother to change it. 8' - 8'6" rods would be easy enough to come by.

If you decide to change, Bill B does very nice knuckle jointed rods for his 4F chassis kit which are/were available separately.


Now sold via Eileen's Emporium.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

nberrington
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby nberrington » Mon May 07, 2012 6:54 pm

Russ Elliott wrote:
nberrington wrote:The CLAG website has two pre-tested options for the "typical" Midland 0-6-0 wheelbase. I used their values from the second option.

In fact, I'm chuffed there was an plot option found to be suitable in this kit application.


Any thoughts on CSB plots for the tender? 6' x 6' Johnson tender? I put them on the spreadsheet, but I think the outer points miss the frames.

Neil

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Tim V
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Tim V » Mon May 07, 2012 7:02 pm

nberrington wrote:Step one was setting up the Avonside jig. Here I noticed my first major criticism of the kit. The fluted coupling rods are nicely etched, but designed to articulate on the crank-pin. This is of course not correct. The rod should articulate on the knuckle. Scratching of noggin at this point, I wondered if it would be worth the bother to change it. 8' - 8'6" rods would be easy enough to come by.

Easy enough to modify the existing ones, using most of the etched rods plus a bit of scrap from the rest. I've had to do this on most locos I've built. No need to delay waiting for other bits.
Tim V
Scalefour News Editor

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MarkS
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby MarkS » Mon May 07, 2012 7:12 pm

While Dave and Neil have started gathering their nuts, this squirrel has been playing hockey and going cycling...

However I did prepare my "Leaside Jig" - a piece of MDF with holes drilled (accurately, with a drill press) in it for jig axles.
I checked them for vertical and horizontal alignment, as well as against the rods supplied in the kit, and all is well.
This is the same jig concept I used for #92 "Kaite" download/file.php?id=3876.
This is "a good thing" since the cut outs on the chassis halves do not match...

I checked the tender again, since John Palmer's questions got me thinking...
1. They did acquire the blue livery, although most were black by the mid 1920's, with one exception: #73 that stayed lined blue until 1931 or so, with LMS hand lettering applied.
2. The tenders used by the S&D 3F's were 2750 gallon and the kit supplies the common variant for the 3F, 3250 gallon. There is a height difference on the tank sides of 4-6".
This leaves me a few choices - Ignore the discrepancy, find a new tender kit, or cut down the sides on my kit and press on regardless.

I am not sure what the tender front difference is, the kit offers two versions, John could you elaborate?
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

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Russ Elliott
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Russ Elliott » Mon May 07, 2012 7:48 pm

nberrington wrote:Any thoughts on CSB plots for the tender? 6' x 6' Johnson tender? I put them on the spreadsheet, but I think the outer points miss the frames.

What's the frame length?

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Will L
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby Will L » Mon May 07, 2012 9:23 pm

nberrington wrote:Any thoughts on CSB plots for the tender? 6' x 6' Johnson tender? I put them on the spreadsheet, but I think the outer points miss the frames.

Shortest available would be
7-A-12-12-A-12-12-A-7

For a 8 thou wire the tender shouldn't weight much less than 75gram
for a 9 thou wire, 120 grams

For a longer wire
8-A-11.5-12.5-A-12.5-11.5-A-8

For a 8 thou wire the tender shouldn't weight much less than 65gram
for a 9 thou wire, 110 grams
fora a 10 thou wire 165 grams

Will

John Palmer
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby John Palmer » Mon May 07, 2012 11:43 pm

MarkS wrote:I checked the tender again, since John Palmer's questions got me thinking...
1. They did acquire the blue livery, although most were black by the mid 1920's, with one exception: #73 that stayed lined blue until 1931 or so, with LMS hand lettering applied.
2. The tenders used by the S&D 3F's were 2750 gallon and the kit supplies the common variant for the 3F, 3250 gallon. There is a height difference on the tank sides of 4-6".
This leaves me a few choices - Ignore the discrepancy, find a new tender kit, or cut down the sides on my kit and press on regardless.

I am not sure what the tender front difference is, the kit offers two versions, John could you elaborate?


Mark, according to Bradley and Milton’s ‘Somerset and Dorset Locomotive History’, the batch of 5 M class 0-6-0’s nos. 72 to 76 diverted new to the S&D in 1902 were supplied with 3,250 gallon tenders. I don’t think I have ever seen a picture of any of this batch as running with these original tenders. In May 1914 nos. 72 and 75 lost their original tenders and received 2,950 gallon tenders in their place. Nos. 72, 73 and 76 similarly received 2,950 gallon tenders in 1921.

The earlier series Bulldogs delivered in 1896 were supplied at the outset with 2,950 gallon tenders.

As best I can tell both batches retained these 2,950 gallon tenders until the 1950’s, although 43218 appears to have received a replacement (?3,250 gallon) no later than 1957.

Finding good pictures of Bulldogs showing the fronts of their tenders proved surprisingly difficult. The best verbal description I can give is of the bulkhead fronting the coalspace being topped by a tool box, the ends of which were of scalloped shape such as to leave a recess between the box and the coal rails that probably served as a convenient resting place for the fire irons. Perhaps the attached sketch will help to show what I mean.

If you can lay hands on a copy of Bradley & Milton there’s a good photograph at p.155 of 63 with 2,950 gallon tender in 1928. The picture of superheater 4-4-0 no 71 at p.153 probably shows a tender with similar front bulkhead in S&D blue livery. If you haven’t got Bradley & Milton but have Ivo Peters’ ‘Somerset and Dorset – An English Cross-Country railway’ there is quite a reasonable view at no.233 of the tender front of the type I have described, attached to 43218.

You referred to the Bulldogs as running with 2,750 gallon tenders, but that’s a new one on me. Your sources may well be better than mine, but in that case Bradley and Milton are due to for correction. I expect you already have details of the other main differences between S&D class 3’s and the Midland version – extra sandboxes ahead of leading driving wheelset, gravity sander control rod above reach rod and mechanical lubricator L/H footplate – oh and the tab catcher: fun stuff to fabricate from scratch!

<edit> Some quite useful pictures of Bulldogs at http://www.newman-family-tree.net/S&D/index.html. I found this site recently and realised I had been at school with Chris Newman, but never knew of his interest in the S&D! </edit>
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SDJR tender bulkhead.jpg
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MarkS
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby MarkS » Tue May 08, 2012 3:09 am

John, thanks for the very helpful info, and upon closer examination of various photos, I see the difference in the tender, not too obvious until you know what to look for... the drawing helps!
I am modelling #73 circa 1928, in blue. It was rebuilt into standard form in mid 1924.

I don't have the Bradley and Milton book, but I found suitable photos in various other places including Locomotives Illustrated 74 and Essery & Jenkinson LMS locomotives Vol.4.
The later states that both batches of 3F delivered to the S&DJR came with 2750 gal tenders, Type J4 (intermediate height, similar to the 2950 gal)
The 2750 and 2950 gal tenders are of similar size so that could add to the confusion.
From my point of view, both are 1-2" shorter than the 3250 gal that is in the kit...

As to the loco detail, again thanks, I now know that the second rod is a sander control, I knew about the front sandboxes, but had missed the lubricator.
I have a Riceworks tablet catcher casting, so no worries there!
Cheers,

Mark.
"In the end, when all is said and done, more will have been said than done..."

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Wed May 09, 2012 11:29 pm

A little more progress and a request. First off the tender is taking shape, the main body is now fitted to the footplate and the tender front has been started, but here I run into difficulty. There are no drawings with the instructions (for this part anyway) and I've not been able to find any clear pics either in my collection or on-line. If anyone can give me some hints as to what the front part of a Caledonian 3000 gallon 6 wheel tender should look like including things like brake standards, boxes etc., I'd appreciate it very much. Here are the pics showing the progress.
progress.jpg

Now what.jpg


Cheers,

David

allanferguson
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby allanferguson » Thu May 10, 2012 12:29 pm

David

As it happens I'm also building one of these -- I've got as far in a month as you have in a week! My tender is at exactly the same stage as yours. There is a paucity of information generally regarding tender fronts, and my main source of reference has been the CRA drawing, of which I've attached the relevant part. If you're not already a member of the Caledonian Railway Association, then a look at their website http://www.crassoc.org.uk/ might be helpful. Alec Inglis is the Sales officer and has for sale copies of these drawings. Incidentally, if you have the Skinley drawing, I'd advise tearing it up!

The other valuable source of information is Jim MacIntosh's book on the rebuilding of 828 (available through the Association), which has lots of photographs from odd angles.

I shall watch your build with great interest -- congratulations on being brave enough to put it on line.

Allan F

Tender 3000g front CRA.jpg

David Knight
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Knight » Thu May 10, 2012 1:43 pm

Allan,

Thank you, just what I needed! Your suggestion to contact the Caledonian Railway Association will be taken on as there are more questions ahead as I look at the fuzzy pictures of engines in my possession. I am aiming for mid '50s condition engine from Corkerhill but have not settled on a specific one yet.

Cheers,

David

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David Thorpe
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby David Thorpe » Thu May 10, 2012 2:52 pm

I've got one of these 812s as well, part built. I started it probably over 20 years ago, but then due to a combination of circumstances I did no modelling for a very long time and the kit was consigned to the back of a cupboard. It's now scheduled for resuscitation as soon as I've finished my current project, so I too shall be watching your progress with interest, and hopefully joining in at some point! :)

DT

allanferguson
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby allanferguson » Thu May 10, 2012 4:11 pm

interestingly this is the second loco I've built from a Caley Coaches kit. All Jim's kits are to a very high standard, and the previous one, a 1 class 4-4-0T pretty much fell together. This one hasn't and has needed a bit of thinking at times, not something for which I am well adapted! Still making into an excellent loco.

Allan F

nberrington
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby nberrington » Mon May 21, 2012 11:14 pm

DSC_0004.JPG
DSC_0006.JPG
Well - we had a marvellous long weekend, courtesy of Her Majesty (Victoria Day). What better way to celebrate that to continue building a Victorian locomotive!

First to the hornblocks and guides. This is the High Level offering. Easy enough to fold up. I've learned not to do it in the air though. They need to be square, so I fiddle with them in my trusty Shesto vice. I use Chris Gibbon's method of using a small file to pull the fold down cheeks towards you. Flatten them square - viola!
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DSC_0005.JPG
Last edited by nberrington on Mon May 21, 2012 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nberrington
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Re: The Great 3F build off

Postby nberrington » Mon May 21, 2012 11:23 pm

Onward now with the chassis itself. I used a very neurotic-obsessive method to ensure all square. The Avonside jig probably makes error unlikely, but I first soldered the chassis up using regular round bearings. Once all square, I cut the hornguide slots out one by one - soldering them sequentially. I think the photos explain.

Finished off with the handrail knobs for the CSB's - and we are taking shape!
Attachments
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DSC_0036.JPG
DSC_0039.JPG
DSC_0040.JPG
DSC_0041.JPG
Soldering in hornblocks - one at a time -
DSC_0044.JPG
All square and flat - the mirror test.


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