60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

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John McAleely
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:45 pm

Gosh, was it May when I last posted here? Sad to say (from the point of view of completing the model), that was, until today, the last time I made progress on Tornado.

Still, it's been an eventful summer, and I've done modelling in other ways (see the Retrospectives, for example).

Today was definately bank-holiday-modelling weather, so I finally got my soldering iron out of summer retirement. I'm working on the motion:

IMG_4827.jpg


The various bits all posed into place. So far, everything seems to line up!

IMG_4828.jpg


You can compare with earlier in the thread to see the progress made today. I think the next step will involve my fettling patience, so I'll see if that's with me tomorrow.

I've had to let Terry know this model won't (barring miracles) be in the competition for Scaleforum. Hopefully it may yet still make a guest appearance in the CHEAG loco building competition!
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:49 pm

And now a question, born from my ignorance of things steam. One of the next steps is to assemble the drop arm (64 on the diagram), which involves laminating two parts. The instructions then note 'locate on front of casting using centre hole and solder'. Does this part get permanently attached to the crosshead casting? Or does it need to be soldered to the rivet in the diagram, so it still can rotate independently of the crosshead?

IMG_4831.jpg
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby 45609 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:13 pm

John,

This picture should help.

Image

Nice big solder joint (weld seam) visible down the left hand side.

Cheers....Morgan

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:30 pm

Perfect - thank you!

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:44 am

Does anyone have advice on how to slightly deepen (half a mil or so) the slot for the connecting rods in the crosshead casting? It is too small for the files I have. I'm going to have a go with some wet-and-dry on the end of a matchstick - does that sound like a good approach?

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:54 am

That sounds like a tricky sort of job, is it possible to take material off the con rod little end instead?
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:58 am

There's plenty there, so aside from losing their symmetry, I don't see why not.

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby David B » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:09 pm

The ideal tool is a slotting file. There are some available which are as thin as 10thou, Allparts have a range from 10thou up for around £20 each. I found an image search more use if you use Google.

Gunsmiths and guitar makers use them - the nut slotting files are used to make the grooves that take the strings over the 'nut' at the top of the fret. These have a rounded edge (see the Allparts link above). Screw slotting files have a knife edge. I have seen and used a square edged one which I borrowed on a Missenden weekend to cut a crosshead, but have not yet managed to find one for sale. H S Walsh have screw slotting files which are 0.5mm wide (though not a square section) for £25.

Prices are around £20 but some are in the £30 range. Not cheap, but invaluable if you have one. Eileen's sell a very small Vallorbe escapement file which is 0.8mm wide (and tapered to the point) which is ideal for coupling pockets, but it is £40. Slightly larger escapement files of various shapes can be bought from Sutton Tools but you would have to ask them what the width of them is.
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby David B » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:30 pm

A cheaper option is to use a hacksaw blade or similar.

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:52 pm

Thanks David. Of course there is a tool for the task! In the interests of making forward progress today I went with Keith's suggestion, and the amount I've needed to take off doesn't seem scary now it's done.

I'm off to Maplin to see if a new soldering bit is due (mine is being very stubbornly dirty, and some filing last night doesn't seem to have helped).

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:25 pm

How do rivets work? Perhaps a dumb question, but one of the next steps appears to be to somehow use a rivet to secure the connecting rod to the crosshead. Perhaps I could solder it (in the right places only), but I thought using rivets involved deforming one end. I've even been asked by the instructions to countersink the hole where the rivet will emerge.

Is there a good book with this sort of workshop technique in it? Precision watchmaking for dummies perhaps? The temptingly titled 'Valve Gear' 41.11 digest sheet sadly appears to exist only as a title placeholder.

Anyway, before assembling the motion, the instructions recommend powering the loco as an 0-6-0, and getting that smooth. So today, as well as finishing the motion parts I need, I added pickups and put the motor on.

And she runs! (After diagnosing my first short...)

There's a lump that I had noticed under finger power, that I (naively) hoped wouldn't be to serious under power. Of course, the opposite is true. So job one before I add the motion parts is to fettle out that lump. Fortunately, I've done that before, so hopefully when I have a go that won't be to tricky a task.

Today's progress:

IMG_4832.jpg


(PS the kit continues to impress me - the drop arm etches have a representation of that weld seam, seen above!)
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John Bateson » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:01 pm

John,
I prefer not to use rivets, finding it difficult to control the amount of 'thump' required, especially on finer parts such as coupling rods and other valve gear.
For the Bradwell kit (which I have had on my shelf and on my to-do list for 5 years now) I would probably use brass or steel pins, soldering on the back only using liquid solder and the usual Rizla paper to protect the inside of the crosshead.
Then file to suit.

Way back in Scalefour News 161, when I had some small responsibility for that journal, I included the following note as a bit of a challenge to members. In particular the last line (in BOLD) may be of interest.

60163 Tornado
Modellers to P4 standards who have an interest in Modern Image may care to consider that it would be
historically accurate now to display a Pendolino next to a Peppercorn A1. 60163 Tornado has, at the time of
going to print, completed several speed runs.
Following a question from a member, we have been assured by the A1 Trust that there will be no copyright
issues with the use of the name and number together for members building and displaying their own private
models, although the Trust is taking measures to protect that combination under Copyright and Intellectual
Property Rights legislation.
There are several possible options for anybody contemplating such a project :-
a) the Hornby A1 at £135 with a drop-in wheel set
b) DJH (£113), PDK (£110) and Proscale kits
c) chassis from the Bradwell stables
d) Brassmasters fold up kit for the Bachmann engine - probably at Scalefour North
e) Springside Models £86.50
Should any member complete such a model, the Trust would like to see pictures of the result.



John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Knuckles » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:31 pm

Following this thread with much interest.

I've never built valve gear before but do fancy a go one day. I can't comment on the difference between pins VS rivets but I'm going to take Tony Wright's advice and use Lace pins from Eileen's emporium (if they still sell them when I come to build something) I like the idea better.
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https://www.sparkshotcustomcreations.co ... e77d42.pdf

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:01 am

Thank you both.

I'm certainly happy to share photos with the A1 trust folk, but first I want to find out if I can produce something that is more interesting than the lessons learned in its construction. We'll see!

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby dal-t » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:12 pm

How do rivets work?


In 'Hot and Cold Connections' (described as a 'bench reference' but commonly regarded as a Jeweller's bible) Tim McCreight explains a rivet as "A length of material, most often a round wire, (which) penetrates the layers to be joined and is then enlarged on both ends to cinch the layers together". He then goes on to identify techniques for six different types of rivet, although he acknowledges rivets are 'a huge family of connections'. Nevertheless, forming them requires a surprisingly universal sequence of steps, and deforming the ends is indeed an essential element. To control this properly it is important that the material forming the rivet is sized correctly, properly annealed, and struck lightly on alternate ends until the rivet is formed. Personally, I prefer to use tube rivets and I 'cheat' by using a small doming punch to initially form the rivet end. Made properly, rivets are highly effective fasteners and should be significantly stronger than a soldered joint.
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Horsetan » Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:07 pm

John McAleely wrote:.....Is there a good book with this sort of workshop technique in it? Precision watchmaking for dummies perhaps? .....


I think the late Geoff Holt's books refer to it. Also, if you can get a copy of the old Roche & Templer book on "Building Model Locomotives", I think there may be something there.....
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:38 am

They do indeed, and I am now reading copies of his book and Guy William's similar work. Funnily, I don't think I would have considered reading them before I started - I think I need to know I can make progress and relate to the task at hand, before I can enjoy books like these.

Now they are cracking reads!

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby billbedford » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:28 am

Valve gear rivets are (or should be) hollow. So to fix them you need a centre punch to expand the tube part of the rivet into the inner layer of the rods you are assembling. Drawing here.

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:03 am

Thanks Bill. It seems this kit has been supplied with two forms of rivet, and a supply of brass pins. I've used (and used up - or maybe I just had two spare from my last build?) the open ended rivets on the coupling rods, and it seems the brass pins are intended for all the joints in the valve gear. That leaves the joint between the connecting rod & crosshead, which seems intended to be completed with a solid brass rivet.

While I build up to needing to just-do-it in some form for the crosshead rivet (either use it as designed, or just solder it), I've been fettling the chassis to run sweetly as an 0-6-0. I'm nearly there, but what has caught my eye is the motor, flapping around (well, sitting at one or other extreme of it's currently permitted movement). That clearly won't do in the long run, and I need to fix it somehow.

However, both of the sources I've so far consulted seem to assume this axle is fixed in the chassis. In this kit it is sprung like all the others. What approaches do people take to this problem? I'm wondering about using a bit of somehow slightly bendy wire to secure it to the frame, so that the motor & gearbox can still move a little with the axle. Alternatively, perhaps if I used a single wire hoop around the motor, it might act as a pivot, again permitting the axle to float. As a final idea of mine, perhaps I can put a guide either side of the highlevel gear tower. That would permit up-and-down movement with the axle, but not rotational movement. Any other thoughts?

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:48 pm

Regards
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:56 pm

Thanks Keith - that is just what I need.

In a side note, I was using my test track in anger today - the ~1m of run length was handy to spot tight points in the coupling rods. Obligingly, with a little tilt of the track, the loco would occasionally skid with the rods 'jammed' in just the place needing a touch of the reamer to open them up.

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:38 pm

A progress update today. In the end I did a bit of both with the crosshead rivet. I soldered the mushroom side (gingerly, with some oil and metal black in places I didn't want solder), and then trimmed the rear nearly flush. I then tapped this briskly, but with some trepidation with my small hammer.

Visually, I'm not sure I actually widened the end (I certainly did no heating of the rivet), but it's held firm so far. And still rotates.

So I've had a couple of weekends assembling and fettling. I missed Scaleforum's Armchair competition by a country mile, but I may still hit CHEAG's spot-on-ish schedule.

And this afternoon, she runs as an 0-6-0 with outside motion:

IMG_4858.jpg


A couple of things I think I learned (with thanks to those who suggested them):

- I assembled the motion and got it running with the sprung suspension parts all removed. The bradwell chassis arrangement of individual springs per wheel involves parts which I prefered to have out of the way while I got things working. I wasn't sure if this would work, but it appears to - the chassis ran well enough without, and much the same when I re-installed the suspension. No bonus binding or other such problems. It also held the road on my 3'6" reverse curve test track. Without suspension, the chassis would derail. With, it does not. I'm not sure if that's entirely expected, but I'll take the result.

- There are peco (00!) fishplates on the leads from the pickups to the motor. While I'm assembling and breaking the chassis down a lot, this is very handy.

I think there's a little more fettling to do before she's entirely smooth at running, but I'm happy with the progress so far!
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Horsetan » Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:26 am

John McAleely wrote:They do indeed, and I am now reading copies of his book and Guy William's similar work. Funnily, I don't think I would have considered reading them before I started - I think I need to know I can make progress and relate to the task at hand, before I can enjoy books like these.

Now they are cracking reads!


Well worth the fifty quid-plus, as I wrote in my review.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:40 pm

photo.jpg


I spent a couple of hours on this today. She's smoother than she was, but still a bit lumpy, noticeably at slow speed. I'm not yet confident I know why, or how to fix it yet. I'll refrain from fitting more of the motion until I understand more.

As you can see, I've added the cartazzi truck, and some weights to get it to sit well on the track. I assume that's expected - some weight is assumed in the design of the chassis?

Looking at the geometry, I'm not convinced this will make it around the 3'6" reverse curve on my test track. That's not a disappointment, so long as I can find somewhere with gentle curves to stretch it out on occasionally.
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:57 pm

John McAleely wrote:Looking at the geometry, I'm not convinced this will make it around the 3'6" reverse curve on my test track


Well, not backwards anyway. trying it forwards just now, that looks more possible. I need to look closely at why it comes off.


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