60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

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John McAleely
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60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:36 pm

My current project, started at Missenden this weekend is to build a model of Tornado.

With this project I have two aims: build something more complex than an inside cylinder loco; and actually take this project to a completed model.

Recognising that I still have beginners wheels on, as far as building stuff from kits goes, I wanted something that would be designed to be built in P4, and also something that might fit with my preferred period (loosely defined as post 1980 for now). The problem I wanted to solve was that most of the kits available which have good reputations are for steam locos, and yet there are very few of them which run in my period.

Despite my preference for blue boxes, every time I have seen Tornado it has impressed me in ways (undefinable) that preserved locos don't, so when it became clear that some high quality parts (the Dave Bradwell Chassis, the Hornby body) were available to get me started, it became an easy decision.

Of course it is a big leap from the 0-6-0 I started with, but the first job will be to get a rolling 0-6-0 chassis...

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John McAleely
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:50 pm

So, here is the starting point:

Missenden-2012-2.jpg
Tornado starting parts
Missenden-2012-2.jpg (69.33 KiB) Viewed 11305 times


We have:

Last edited by John McAleely on Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fix url

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John McAleely
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:02 pm

Some timely inspiration: Tornado visited Plymouth this weekend, in a very modern formation!

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John McAleely
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:11 pm

First steps.

I started with the goal of seeing if I could get a rolling chassis while I was at Missenden, and I also assumed I would use my ChassisPro as an assembly jig, so the first step was to make up the coupling rods on the jig.

Having done that, and after getting all the spacers cleaned up and folded, I discussed the assembly options. Given the precision evident in the design, the conclusion was that the jig was probably unnecessary for the mainframes, and possibly it would get in the way. So I assembled the mainframes standalone, and was very pleased when a trial assembly of the driving wheels suggests the frame is indeed true.

The first deviation from the kit looks like it will be the frame lamination on the front (which you can see below). The kit suggests this is designed to reflect the construction of the prototype, but notes that Tornado differs, and has a one piece frame.

However, much of the detail on this etch is clearly needed, so I've decided to add it, and then will have a go at removing some of the rivet detail. The photos in the Haynes manual of the chassis under construction suggests it will be only some of them.

Missenden-2012-6.jpg
Chassis parts
Missenden-2012-6.jpg (34.51 KiB) Viewed 11280 times


The photo is of the unmodified part.

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby DougN » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:18 pm

John have to agree with your sentiments with Dave Bradwell's design and his etchers. I have been building the Q6 from Dave for about 12 months now. The chassis as you have found goes together with out the aid of a jig and dave points out in the instructions where things have to be set. The Q6 is still comming along though I hope to have it running in the next month or so. Good luck with the rest of your build as I know there will be a lot of pieces to be put in place!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Horsetan
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Horsetan » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:46 pm

I don't think any of Dave's chassis kits actually need a chassis jig. I get by with a bit of plate glass, graph paper, and some try squares.

John McAleely wrote:So, here is the starting point:
....[*] Haynes Manual for the loco concerned...[/list]


Ah, the Haynes Book of Lies..... :mrgreen:
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Flymo748
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Flymo748 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:22 pm

Horsetan wrote:
John McAleely wrote:So, here is the starting point:
....[*] Haynes Manual for the loco concerned...[/list]


Ah, the Haynes Book of Lies..... :mrgreen:

Those dreaded words to any motorbiker: "Assembly is the reverse of dis-assembly"...

Not so simple with desmodromic valve gear!

Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
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John McAleely
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:25 pm

I'm doing some research on the detailing I need, and one item is the cartazzi axleboxes.

These appear to be available from Comet (LS14), or ABS. I'm assuming both are for 'as built' A1's (The Comet ones look like they are), and are technically not correct for Tornado (which has roller bearings in a quite different looking mount).

The Hornby chassis has a nice rendition of these, but is a fairly substantial bit of metal - removing just the axle boxes would be a challenge for me.

Does anyone know of a source of 'correct' mouldings, or can perhaps comment on the hackability of either of the available products? I might have a go at fabricating some of my own, perhaps by modifying a set of bought in ones.

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Horsetan
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Horsetan » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:35 am

John McAleely wrote:I'm doing some research on the detailing I need, and one item is the cartazzi axleboxes.

These appear to be available from Comet (LS14), or ABS. I'm assuming both are for 'as built' A1's (The Comet ones look like they are), and are technically not correct for Tornado (which has roller bearings in a quite different looking mount).

.....Does anyone know of a source of 'correct' mouldings, or can perhaps comment on the hackability of either of the available products? I might have a go at fabricating some of my own, perhaps by modifying a set of bought in ones.


I was thinking that maybe you could:

1. Use the springs and guides from the standard Cortazzis, i.e. saw out the plain box.

2. Graft in the roller "box" from either LMS Ivatt roller bearing or BR standard boxes (both types available from Comet).
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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John McAleely
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:26 pm

That makes sense - that certainly sounds like a way forward.

Another thought that occurred to me today - could I take a mould master from the hornby chassis and cast my own? I recall there was some advice on home casting in S4N.

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Horsetan
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Horsetan » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:41 pm

John McAleely wrote:....could I take a mould master from the hornby chassis and cast my own? I recall there was some advice on home casting in S4N.


Get in touch with Graeme King - he's known as "Atlantic3279" on the LNER Forum - he does quite a bit of home casting and can give you the low-down on this. If you do manage it, I wouldn't mind buying a full set or two from you!
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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John McAleely
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:41 pm

Putting aside the axlebox puzzle for now, I have spent a few hours assembling the axle bearings and so on. I think I've spotted a mistake.

In the picture below, I assume the bottom axle has the bearings arranged with the keeper on the wrong side - as I looked at both axles like this I pondered that they seemed likely to ride in on the axle...

TornadoWheels.jpg
TornadoWheels.jpg (46.82 KiB) Viewed 10716 times


Fortunately, simply flipping them through 180 degrees (as I already have done to the top axle) seems to be a straightforward fix!

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Horsetan
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Horsetan » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:15 pm

Yes, the plates are meant to be on the outside ;)
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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John McAleely
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:07 pm

Thanks! While I'm in 'ask the internet' mode, does anyone have a picture or diagram which shows how the suspension spring wire attaches to the adjusting screws in this chassis design?

I'm struggling to imagine how to do it without effectively locking the screws in place. In my mind, every way I attach the spring wire to the screw will result in the screw being unable to turn.

I had a look at Doug's Q6 build, but there were no photos that told this part of the story that I can see.

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Russ Elliott
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Russ Elliott » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:52 pm

John - I'm surprised the method isn't detailed in the instructions, but I assume the principle is:
http://clag.org.uk/pics/digest41-0/fig25.gif

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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby DougN » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:01 am

Appologies John.... I will try to get more photo's for you!. (The Q6 managed to get 2 hours of work last night) The question is really the springs can either be on top or underneath the axle boxes! I have the Q6 with them on to and a B1 (wonder where that has escaped too!) underneath.

I will see if I can remember to take a photo for you of both tonight!
Doug
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John McAleely
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby John McAleely » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:17 am

Russ Elliott wrote:John - I'm surprised the method isn't detailed in the instructions, but I assume the principle is:
Image


There are several diagrams in the instructions as well, but none explain how the wire is attached into the blind hole (That I can see). If it is soldered, I would assume it would prevent the screw from turning, and providing its adjustment feature. This is the puzzle - it doesn't seem obviously correct to me.

Hopefully Doug's photos may make this clear.

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Horsetan
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Horsetan » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:33 am

This was a problem I had when I started building a chassis for 44767. A partial solution was to do what is shown in the diagram, and that was to drill a tiny hole (0.3mm) in the top of each grubscrew so that the tail of the spring protruded above it.

This means you have to make the tail of each spring longer so that it has enough to protrude through the top of the grubscrew. Do NOT solder it.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

allanferguson
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby allanferguson » Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:27 am

I had thought about this, and didn't fancy the idea of drilling a wee hole in the middle of a 10 BA screw; also the very short tail of the spring didn't seem to be very secure. So I came up with a modification, which I emphasise is entirely theoretical -- I haven't built it! I do like the idea of having independent, and independently adjustable, springing for each wheel.

Allan F

Loco spring 3.JPG
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Horsetan
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Horsetan » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:32 pm

The only flaw I can see is that this would "pre-set" the screw settings to each 180-degree turn of the screw only.

And the spring can still fall straight through the hole unless you put a tail in it.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

allanferguson
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby allanferguson » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:45 pm

Horsetan wrote:The only flaw I can see is that this would "pre-set" the screw settings to each 180-degree turn of the screw only.

And the spring can still fall straight through the hole unless you put a tail in it.


180 deg turn of 10 BA screw = 0.17mm approx (= 0.085mm approx on the wheel) -- do we need any finer adjustment? And I'm sure the brains on here can think of several ways of securing the spring!

Allan F

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Horsetan
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Horsetan » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:01 pm

allanferguson wrote:
Horsetan wrote:The only flaw I can see is that this would "pre-set" the screw settings to each 180-degree turn of the screw only.

And the spring can still fall straight through the hole unless you put a tail in it.


180 deg turn of 10 BA screw = 0.17mm approx (= 0.085mm approx on the wheel) -- do we need any finer adjustment? And I'm sure the brains on here can think of several ways of securing the spring!


Cross-drill, to allow 90-degree turns? ;)
That would be an ecumenical matter.

craig_whilding

Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby craig_whilding » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:14 pm

Solder a U shape on the wire outside the diameter of the screw? Or a cup that the screw locates in?

Both seem easier than removing the wire all the time that you want an adjustment. Tiny bit of threadlock when its correct to just hold it (I think its threadlock you can break if needed..).

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Simon_S
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Simon_S » Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:10 pm

Retain the axlebox in the hornblock some other way; then the spring doesn't need to be retained in the blind-drilled grubscrew.

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Will L
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Re: 60163 Tornado: Dave Bradwell Chassis + Hornby Bodywork

Postby Will L » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:32 pm

allanferguson wrote:..I do like the idea of having independent, and independently adjustable, springing for each wheel.


It was to save us from this sort of fiddling wheel by wheel adjustment, with no possible basis for determining what's adjusted right and what's not, that CSBs were invented for.

Will


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