Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Richard Harper
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Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby Richard Harper » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:36 am

Help please. Has anyone yet tackled a conversion of the Bachmann 82xxx Standard 3 tank? Any hints or tips please?
Happy Christmas to all.
Richard Harper

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Tim V
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby Tim V » Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:05 pm

I believe Captain Kernow has one of these under scrutiny.....
Tim V
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chrisf
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby chrisf » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:36 am

One possible obstacle is the absence of driving wheels of 5'3" diameter and 17 spokes - that is, unless someone knows differently!

Chris

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Tim V
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby Tim V » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:51 pm

Ultrascale do (did) them.

That's what's fitted on my Kemilway version.
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Captain Kernow
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby Captain Kernow » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:14 pm

Tim V wrote:I believe Captain Kernow has one of these under scrutiny.....

My P4 82XXX is actually a kit built one, although I have been working on one of the Bachmann versions for the OO layouts (this has involved a new chassis - modified Comet 76XXX - due to shortcomings with the Bachmann example on my model).
Tim M
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SHurst
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby SHurst » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:24 am

An interesting thread I have just read. It begs the question "Where is the missing spoke" ? : :shock:

Sharman - "Wheel Specifications for the Modeller" - lists the 82000 tank as having a 5ft 3 inch 15 spoke driving wheel (though mistakes in this publication are not unknown). However a quick look at the Ultrascale website does not list such a diameter wheel with 17 spokes and I do not recall one ever being produced by them in this configuration - but I may be wrong :?

The clincher however is that Ultrascale also list a "complete set" for the 82000 tanks and guess what, the wheels shown have 16 spokes :o As if that was not bad enough, taking out my two "to do" Kemilway kits and looking at the P4 Ultrascale wheel packs specifically labelled for the BR 82000 2-6-2T they are - yes you have got it - 16 spoke ! :x

This "Fine Scale Modelling lark" can be really confusing some time....... :cry:

Simon

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Tim V
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby Tim V » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:26 pm

Just checked my Sharman wheel book, it lists 5'3" 16 spoke!

Mine is the New Edition of 1982.
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SHurst
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby SHurst » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:15 pm

A later edition, mine is OPC 1978. (Several other errors noted over the years - especially in the Highland Railway section when compared with sources such as Tatlow)

Photos of 82001 in RCTS Volume Three "The Tank Engine Classes" show 16 spokes.

Simon

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:36 pm

The inaccuracies in the Sharman book, so far as anyone has been prepared to share their info, is dealt with in http://www.scalefour.org/resources/wheelspec.html
Additional info will be welcomed by the Webmaster if supported by sources.

So far as the BR class 3 engines go this is what E S Cox had to say about it
Choice of coupled wheel diameter was largely arbitrary, 5 ft.8 in. and 6 ft. 2 in. being marginally preferred in the larger sizes over the alternative 5 ft. 6 in. and 6ft. 0 in. No wheel smaller than 5 ft. 0 in. was used throughout the series, with 5 ft. 3 in. as a fourth size introduced simply because it was proposed to standardise the L.M.S. Class 4 2-6-0 as it stood with only detail alterations. Having adopted this size for this reason, it was convenient to apply it also to the Class 3 engines.

So essentially these were the Ivatt wheels.
Regards
Keith

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chrisf
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby chrisf » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:17 am

I have just spent half an hour on the interweb unsucessfully trying to find a decent broadside pic of a Standard 3 so that I may count the spokes for myself. What I did find was the 82045 Trust's website which states that the patterns for the 5'3" 17 spoke drivers have been made and are on display somewhere on the Severn Valley Railway.

None of this helps Richard, I'm afraid, and I apologise to him for starting the digression of the thread away from the question he asked.

Chris

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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby SHurst » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:17 am

At risk of keeping this hare running, I believe that LMS progression on wheel/spoke numbers went 5ft 0inch/15 spoke, 5ft 3inch/16 spoke, 5ft 6inch/17 spoke. I may be wrong though.

On a more practical point, the acceptance of a compromise at some point is always inevitable - witness the debate about Class 22 wheels currently running in a parallel thread. If a "correct" set is never custom made, are we all never to see a P4 model of this loco running ?

As to your point Keith about information being supported by sources, more often than not "definitive proof" in a true historical research content is sometimes impossible. I am sure Sharman thought his information was right initially.(he does appear to have got the LMS 5ft 3in spokes correct )

Which brings me to one final point, later members of this class - nos 82030/6- 44 had a threequarters of a ton increase in the coal capacity and resulting increase axle loading. Whilst I have no evidence to support any theory, I wonder if any variations to wheels were introdoced at build/repair? Just a thought.

Regards

Simon

nigelcliffe
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby nigelcliffe » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:29 am

I've done a count on two photos. Neither totally clear; a standard 3 2-6-2T in my early 1960's "ABC" and a standard 3 2-6-0 tender in "Ivatt and Riddles Locomotives". I came to 17 spokes on both. Its not definitive as neither shot was square on to the side.

Nigel

martin goodall
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby martin goodall » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:50 pm

nigelcliffe wrote:I've done a count on two photos. Neither totally clear; a standard 3 2-6-2T in my early 1960's "ABC" and a standard 3 2-6-0 tender in "Ivatt and Riddles Locomotives". I came to 17 spokes on both. Its not definitive as neither shot was square on to the side.

Nigel


Perhaps the difficulty of seeing exactly how many spokes there are should tell us something?

To pick up on a comment on another thread, which also referred to the number of spokes (in that case on a Class 22 Bo-Bo, where the wheels are largely hidden behind the bogie side frames) - is spoke-counting the new rivet-counting? :twisted:

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Russ Elliott
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby Russ Elliott » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:30 pm

martin goodall wrote:is spoke-counting the new rivet-counting? :twisted:

Heretic that I am, I can't get too excited about the number of spokes. What I do think stands out more for the spoked NBL wheel is the thickness of the spokes - very chunky compared to a steam engine equivalent. There was a good pic of a 22 being cut up, presumably at Cashmore's yard, showing excellent detail of the wheels, posted in an old incarnation of RMweb, but it got lost in one of RMweb's many early server crashes.

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Tim V
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby Tim V » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:09 pm

Doesn't it depend on which spoke you start the count on? I remember Winnie the Pooh had the same problem in the Hundred Acre Wood.....
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SHurst
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby SHurst » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:37 pm

The problem of being in Hundred Acre Wood ( or any other for that matter) is that you can lose sight of it for the trees..... ;)

Simon

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45609
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby 45609 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:14 pm

Standard 3MT tanks (82xxx) do indeed have 17 spoke wheels, whereas the 76xxx has 16 spoke wheels.

The double page spread (pg. 88/89) photo of 82014 in BR Standard Steam in Close up Vol 1 by Bradford and Barton is as good as it gets. Also a good photo of the rear driver's side wheel of 76018 on page 61 of the same book confirms the difference. In this case it is not necessary to be able to see all the spokes of the wheel to determine if it is 16 or 17. If you can see spokes on both sides of the boss then holding a straight edge along the line of one of the spokes and through the centre of the wheel can give you a clue. If the opposite side spoke lines up then it is 16. If not then it will be 17

I suspect the difference could be for structural reasons. Think of the extra mass of water being carried on the driving wheels. Perhaps the observed difference on 82001 is due to it being the first of the breed. It wouldn't be the first time the design office got the calculations wrong and the stress office had to recommend a change. ;)

Cheers....Morgan

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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby SHurst » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:50 pm

This is clearly a well worn path beaten by others before us. Looking at the link provided by Keith earlier in the thread, both the Riddles 3MT 2-6-0 and 2-6-2T have been listed as having both 16 and 17 spoke wheels. Only the 4MT 2-6-0 appear to have undisputed 16 spoke drivers.

This begs the question who established this and on what basis for it to be published ? Can any light be shed on this ?

The catalyst for this thread was the suggestion, made in all good faith, that nobody had converted a Bachmann 2-6-2 Tank because of the absence of the "correct" 17 spoke wheel.

If we are to accept that this class ONLY had 17 spoke drivers then both the above S4 information and Mr Ultrascale are wrong.( Who is going to tell them ??) :twisted:

If, as it would appear, that the class had both 16 and 17 spoke drivers then those who have used Ultrascale 16 spoke conversions are also "correct" and the original query can also be achieved regarding a conversion. If not the case another "compromise" must be made for such models

Which brings me back to my original question "where is the missing spoke" ?? :?

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Flymo748
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:58 pm

SHurst wrote: If, as it would appear, that the class had both 16 and 17 spoke drivers then those who have used Ultrascale 16 spoke conversions are also "correct" and the original query can also be achieved regarding a conversion. If not the case another "compromise" must be made for such models

Which brings me back to my original question "where is the missing spoke" ?? :?

Down the back of the sofa, obviously...

Flymo
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:46 pm

I have scrutinised the photos of these 3 classes in Cox, 76000, 82037 and 77009. it is clear that 76000 has 16 spokes per wheel, the others tricky to count but definitely an odd number greater than 16, clearly new patterns were made for these wheels, presumably a minor detail to Cox as he does not seem to mention spokes anywhere in his highly detailed technical descriptions. Rather than more spokes to support a heavier load as surmised above I would suggest the opposite is the case, the class 3s were supposed to have a 16t max axleload and despie the best efforts of the designers were a bit over. It would seem possible that the extra spoke allowed a thinner section both of spokes and rim and hence ended up with a weight saving for each wheelset. The maximum axleload for the 82xxx was only 1 cwt above that for the 77xxx and well under that for a 76xxx.
See table:
Axle/Loco - - - 76xxx - - - 77xxx - - - 82xxx
front - - - - - - - 16t 13c - - 16t 2c - - - 16t 6c
driving - - - - - - 16t 19c - - 16t 5c - - - 16t 6c
rear - - - - - - - - 16t 17c - - 16t 3c - - - 16t 3c

Regards
Keith

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45609
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby 45609 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:14 pm

Yes, seems equally plausible too. I'll admit my suggestion was without having the axle load numbers available. Of course the 82xxx is also benefiting from the rear pony taking some of the additional mass. Out of interest what are the non driven wheel loads Keith?

Morgan

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:27 pm

OK, here is the missing info from the weight diagrams in Cox.
Keith

Axle/Loco - - - 76xxx - - - 77xxx - - - 82xxx
front pony- - - - 9t 6c - - - 9t 0c - - - 12t 13c
rear pony- - - - n/a - - - - - n/a - - - - 12t 13c
tender - - - - - - - -BR2 - - - BR2A
front - - - - - - - - 15t 2c - - 15t 2c - - - n/a
centre - - - - - - - 13t 9c - - 13t 9c - - - -n/a
rear - - - - - - - - 13t 12c - - 13t 12c - - -n/a

Philip Hall
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby Philip Hall » Fri May 18, 2012 2:58 pm

I've just spotted this thread, must have missed it before.

I have just completed a conversion of the Bachmann model, although to EM. No problems apart from the usual one of the rods not matching the axle centres, which I put right, and the differing crankpin hole sizes on the centre drivers (!) which meant turning up my own conversion bushes; once these were all in I reduced the bosses a little. I used Gibson wheels; these are 16 spoke, and I didn't really notice the missing spoke until making up the balance weights. The Bachmann originals are 17 spoke. I make up new return cranks, tapped 14BA, and prefer to finally solder these to 14BA brass screws for the centre crankpin. No widening of the frames was required, and actually I don't think it's that obvious. I had no extra detail to make up, as it's all provided for you to fit, even the vac and heating pipes.

Taking quite a bit of the slop out of it has resulted in a very smooth running engine. P4 should be much the same, if you've got a good runner to start with.

Philip

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45609
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby 45609 » Fri May 18, 2012 5:38 pm

Phillip,
That looks great! Have you done much in the way of additional detailing?
Morgan

Philip Hall
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Re: Bachmann Std 3 82xxx 2-6-2 Tank

Postby Philip Hall » Fri May 18, 2012 9:03 pm

Thanks Morgan, glad you like it!

Absolutely nothing has been added at all bar what comes in the box. Vac pipes, heating pipes, screw couplings and even finely moulded fire irons are provided for you to fit. I just had to modify the screw coupling hooks, which are plastic, to go a bit further into the buffer beam and that was it, apart from the weathering. I thought the moulded lamp brackets were quite fine, and they weren't going to be functional, so I left them alone as well, although I see one of them is a bit bent. I did slightly thin down the smokebox door handles.

Philip


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