Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

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chris_mccarthy
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Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby chris_mccarthy » Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:01 am

The first batch of Beattie Well Tanks has been delivered to Kernow customers but I have seen no references or comments as yet on the prospect of converting them to P4. There are a number of OO ones shown running in forum video clips elsewhere.

Does anyone have any P4 experience as yet or know if there is a mention on this or another forum - I can't find any?

I and several of my SLAG collaborators have them on order so we are keen to hear about the conversion realities as St.Merryn can genuinely justify one (with WTT and photographic evidence at Padstow) on Wadebridge locals.

Thanks,

Chris McCarthy
Chris McCarthy

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:34 am

chris_mccarthy wrote:The first batch of Beattie Well Tanks has been delivered to Kernow customers but I have seen no references or comments as yet on the prospect of converting them to P4. There are a number of OO ones shown running in forum video clips elsewhere.

Does anyone have any P4 experience as yet or know if there is a mention on this or another forum - I can't find any?

I and several of my SLAG collaborators have them on order so we are keen to hear about the conversion realities as St.Merryn can genuinely justify one (with WTT and photographic evidence at Padstow) on Wadebridge locals.

Thanks,

Chris McCarthy


I have one with a view to P4 conversion, 1st thoughts....

1. Body/splasher clearance looks close to 23mm so should be OK for our 22mm width of drivers and a bit of sideplay if needed.
Can't measure this accurately as I havent separated body and chassis; no paper in box so tried removing coupling pockets and 3 obvious screws.
The body wants to separate ABOVE footplate at the front when a placcy clip is released but I can't see how to separate them at the back.

2. Clearance between brake rodding and pony axleboxes seems to be 22mm so will need work doing to increase this; probably easy on brakes, less so for pony axleboxes......

3. All problems are likely to be solvable but can't yet say how easy; it don't look as quick as the Sentinel 40minute job!

Armchair Modeller

Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Armchair Modeller » Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:33 pm

Any idea what diameter the axles are, please?

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Paul Townsend » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:13 am

Armchair Modeller wrote:Any idea what diameter the axles are, please?


I can't measure them until chassis removed. There are two possible placcy clips towards the rear but I haven't succeeded in releasing them yet.

The pony axle looks like plain 2mm.
Drivers appear to have a c. 2mm stub into wheels, a shoulder behind wheels to set B2B and a main diameter in region of 3mm or 1/8"

Armchair Modeller

Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Armchair Modeller » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:46 am

Thanks.

I will follow your conversion with interest. Please let us know how you get on.

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Paul Townsend » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:58 pm

TVM to Kernow for fast posting of absent instruction sheet.
However it ain't much help, just tells the obvious " remove a screw and prise body off".

The keeper plate is secured at one end by what looks like a screw but is in fact a press fix device...on prising it took off into the outer darkness so I recommend a lump of blutack to stop that. Found it eventually!

The chassis is split frame and pony is center sprung by a little coil.
Axles are plain 2mm for Pony but complex machining and placcy center muff for drivers. Basic diameter is 3.8mm running in 5mm OD plain brass bushes.

Both axles are gear driven so coupling rods just along for the ride.
Motor is 5 pole skew and runs nicely. Worm drives an idler with spur gears to axles, I will count teeth later after my imminent flue jab!

Armchair Modeller

Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Armchair Modeller » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:25 pm

paultownsend wrote:I will count teeth later after my imminent flue jab!


I never realised flu jabs were so dangerous - lets hope you still have a full set afterwards ;)

Many thanks for the information - that is very useful.

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Paul Townsend » Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:48 pm

paultownsend wrote:Both axles are gear driven so coupling rods just along for the ride.


Due to this, there is no play in axle bearings position so 4 drivers are "fixed suspension".

Motor shaft is fitted with tiniest flywheel I ever saw.....I hope it is very high revving otherwise it won't do much god to support the weak pickup arrangement of rigid 4 split-frame drivers supplemented by rocking pony and its wipers
.
The footplate allows for 22.5mm clearance for our 22 outside width wheels, there would be no problem in increasing that if you wanted too, I wouldn't.
The front splashers are tighter allowing 22.3mm as are but body sides thickness is 1.7mm so one could shave a bit off. However I believe if the P4 drivers are well washered as no side play beyond a running fit is required, then this 22.3mm should suffice. For those who want more, the rear splashers provide plenty of clearance.

Now for P4 conversion first ideas.....
1. Brake rodding somewhat wrecked in removal, had to be widened anyway so will rebuild with shim and wire. It looked pretty good before wrecking with close fit to wheels!
2. Pony wheels...plain substitution of P4 on 2mm axle will be tried. Existing wiper pickups on pony to be retained.

3. Drivers options...
a) Keep rigid chassis as 2 driven axles makes it non-viable to compensate/spring etc. P4 wheels with a normal 1/8" split axle to be fitted in 5mm OD brass drop in bearings as original Dapol. The spur gears will be drilled out to 1/8" and be loctited to centre portions ( current center placcy muff is some small diameter, so when axle/gear/wheels are demolished it may prove feasible to retain this muff and attach it to 1/8" stub axles) This will be quickish and simple, costing only wheels and work on axles/bearings, but obviously the rigid chassis is likely to have pickup problems with only pony and max 3 drivers in conduction path. At least I don't want huge pulling power so loss of traction on 3 wheels may be acceptable

b) Replace chassis entirely with a CSB suspension. Due to the way the footplate and chassis unite the design and implementation of this will be challenging.

4. Replace buffers with sprung, replace hooks with decent screw assemble and/or add AJs powered by Nigel Cliffe's DCC uncoupler.

Immediate next step is to re-assemble, run-in the 00 chassis and assess for pickup/flywheel/pulling power of rigid chassis. This will help decide on above options for drivers.

It turns out that the screw lookalike stud referred to that went into orbit IS a screw..."prising, rotating etc caused the brass knurled nut to pull out of its hole and stay with the screw....?too much factory torque or loktite? If I can separate the screw/nut, the nut will be reglued into its housing, else new screw/nut to be fitted.
Several tiny screws of same appearance are used to assemple the chassis motor/gearbox block...I am not disturbing these for now as I see a high risk of chewing micro-Pozidrive heads if loctited like above-mentioned one! So gear ratio tooth counting can't happen yet as all are buried in this block

When running-in trial completed in 00 I will report back on performance and revisit above option a) viability.
This requires access to BAG's circular 00 test track as I only have a straight meter of 00 and the host is away for our next meet so a few weeks' delay seems likely before next report. I am sure many 00 addicts will report on runin performance in the thread on RMWeb.

Meanwhile, lets see what Ultrascale and/or High Level offer to convert this beaut.

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chris_mccarthy
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby chris_mccarthy » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:47 pm

Thanks for the description, Paul.

I haven't yet received mine (coming any moment, I'm told) but a friend has so we have been musing about the drive train issue as he, too, has dismantled it.

His inclination is to junk the rear axle gear (thereby making the motor drive only to the front axle), carve out the overheight cab housing/floor and make a new footplate at correct height. Then use a P4 rear axle (with it being sprung/compensated etc in some way independent of the Kernow chassis at that point - a decision for later.) with the drive being taken through the side rods. This, in effect, converts it to a "normal" loco chassis

To date these are only discussion points without practical experimentation other than, like you, taking the thing to pieces and studying its bits. It will be instructive first to see whether or not there is sufficient (dare I say it?) slop in the running 00 chassis to suggest whether or not a more radical approach is in fact needed. The too-high cab floor is a problem that may yet drive(!) the overall decision. I'm sure there will be plenty of different views on all this.

BTW the chimney doesn't seem at all right, having a lip described by my friend as akin to "Mick Jagger's lips" and with an exagerated taper (was that Mick Jagger's hips, do you think?).

Chris McCarthy
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Craig Warton
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Craig Warton » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:44 pm

Paul and Chris,

I also have a bit of a weakness for the Beattie tanks and was very tempted to indulge in one. In light of the Ultrascale conversion of the Sentinel, I sent them an email asking about a P4 conversion for the well tank.

The short answer is that they do not produce a driving wheel for the Beattie and have no plans for that or a conversion.

So, count them out and start checking the Gibson wheels.

regards,

Craig Warton

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Paul Townsend » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:54 am

chris_mccarthy wrote:Thanks for the description, Paul.

I haven't yet received mine (coming any moment, I'm told) but a friend has so we have been musing about the drive train issue as he, too, has dismantled it.

His inclination is to junk the rear axle gear (thereby making the motor drive only to the front axle), carve out the overheight cab housing/floor and make a new footplate at correct height. Then use a P4 rear axle (with it being sprung/compensated etc in some way independent of the Kernow chassis at that point - a decision for later.) with the drive being taken through the side rods. This, in effect, converts it to a "normal" loco chassis

To date these are only discussion points without practical experimentation other than, like you, taking the thing to pieces and studying its bits. It will be instructive first to see whether or not there is sufficient (dare I say it?) slop in the running 00 chassis to suggest whether or not a more radical approach is in fact needed. The too-high cab floor is a problem that may yet drive(!) the overall decision. I'm sure there will be plenty of different views on all this.

BTW the chimney doesn't seem at all right, having a lip described by my friend as akin to "Mick Jagger's lips" and with an exagerated taper (was that Mick Jagger's hips, do you think?).

Chris McCarthy

Having reassembled mine for running in it seems to have a fair bit of vertical slop on the drivers as the axles can rock about the centre gear so that will help to keep contacts while gear still meshes. It runs OK on my 1M test length, which has no bumps (unlike my proper P4 test track which has challenges for suspensions inbuilt). Hauling trial awaits access to the BAG 00 circuit, which AFAIK has no calibrated bumps but is big enough to have some inevitable rough bits.

Making the drive to one axle only may well be worth a try ...easy to do as an intermediate stage in the conversion. Coupling rods that work as usual may put more demands on their accuracy than the "as supplied passengers".

I have no comments yet re cab floor and chimney as I am low on Beattie prototype info as this is for my new layout in planning stages.

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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby billbedford » Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:34 am

Sorry to revive this old thread but:

I have one of the latest batch of Kernow Beattie well tanks and this one has split frame pickup and a small (8 x 16 mm, I think) coreless motor. Is this the same as the original Dapol one, or are there two different mechs for this model?
Bill Bedford
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bevis
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby bevis » Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:38 pm

Hi Bill,
I have three of the originals and they have split frames and an open frame motor some 20x11mm in size.
Bevis

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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby billbedford » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:01 am

bevis wrote:Hi Bill,
I have three of the originals and they have split frames and an open frame motor some 20x11mm in size.


Bevis

I've attached a copy of the exploded diagram that came with my loco. Could you confirm that your model has a separate motor mount similar to parts 37 and 29? If it has then frames for both batches will be possible.

Beattie Well tank intructions.pdf
(407.47 KiB) Downloaded 193 times
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
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bevis
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby bevis » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:35 pm

Hi Bill,
It looks to me as if the frames are the same but your version has a cradle for the coreless motor to make it fit the original. I've attached a photo of mine for your info.
Bevis
Attachments
P9250011.JPG

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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby billbedford » Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:08 am

Thanks, that's useful.
Bill Bedford
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby billbedford » Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:34 pm

It looks like the O2 is split frame too --
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
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Jeremy Good
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Jeremy Good » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:06 pm

With the re-introduction of this model under the EFE Rail banner, I was wondering whether anyone had any success in converting them to P4 or is the only realistic option the construction of a new chassis?

Jeremy

bevis
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby bevis » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:12 pm

not yet but I have got wheels from Bill ready!

Philip Hall
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:28 pm

If the chassis is the same as it was under DJ Models then I think conversion would be a nightmare. At least I wouldn’t take it on as a job. I do know of someone who has merely ‘turned’ the wheels down under power and that has worked.

Apart from Bill, the wheels aren’t available commercially, even Sharman wheels did not have the correct flat faced spokes.

Philip

Jeremy Good
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Jeremy Good » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:03 pm

Thanks both. It sounds like a replacement chassis is required then.

I couldn’t see the wheels on the Mousa Models website - how do I order a set?

Jeremy

bevis
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby bevis » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:09 pm

Hi Jeremy,

I got them from Bill some time ago; you remember, that time when going to exhibitions such as S4um could happen!

I'd PM him if he's not lurking watching his name come up.

All the best,

Bevis

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Horsetan
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Horsetan » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:50 pm

Jeremy Good wrote:Thanks both. It sounds like a replacement chassis is required then....


You'll have to make your own then, as no chassis kit for the Beattie Well Tank currently exists. There used to be one available from Westward/Perseverance but it didn't have much room for compensation or springs and anyway, since Chris Parrish died, the whole thing's gone down the pan.
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:12 am

Horsetan wrote:
Jeremy Good wrote:Thanks both. It sounds like a replacement chassis is required then....


You'll have to make your own then, as no chassis kit for the Beattie Well Tank currently exists. There used to be one available from Westward/Perseverance but it didn't have much room for compensation or springs and anyway, since Chris Parrish died, the whole thing's gone down the pan.


As in you can't get the Perseverance products? I understand that the range has now found a new home but it may be a while before it can be reintroduced.

AGW list a set of profile milled frames, so that's another option.

Jeremy Good
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Re: Kernow Beattie Well Tank to P4?

Postby Jeremy Good » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:42 am

Thanks. Fortunately I’ve got a Westward kit in the to do pile so I’ll have a look at the chassis in that to see if it’s viable. If not it’ll either be the AGW frames or I’ll have a go at scratch building using the kit ones as a template.

Jeremy


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